123 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

No, EmperorSahlertz, Jowan is simply asking her if she learned it by accident or if she learned it from a demon. He seems to have left the ability of sarcasm back in Amaranthine with Ser Pounce-A-Lot given how serious he is when she jokingly asks about his cat and if he was knighted. So we have Anders dialogue, Jowan, and the Orlesian Warden learning about blood knowledge from an old tome. There's also the Scrolls of Banastor in Origins which can instruct a mage on knowledge about blood magic. There's no evidence that blood magic can only be obtained through a deal with a demon.

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

First Enchanter Irving (a moderate, no less) is thrilled with the Hero of Ferelden asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence, and thanks him for freeing the mages from their "shackles." I'd say the mages are willing to police themselves if given the chance, and the ruler of Ferelden thinks the mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

And Fenris tells us the same scenario happened in Tevinter.
Mages were allowed to police themselves and afterward took over the templars, the Chantry and the Senate

The problem here is whether or not mages can be trusted to truly deal with the their own criminals or if they'll always try to find some justification for their acts. I have no doubt that some mages will be altruistic being, determined to protect others and use their powers to serve the greater good. But others can just as easily decide to use their magic for personal advancement at whatever cost. The question here is how many mages are truly willing to set aside their own ambitions in order to serve those weaker than themselves?

LobselVith8 wrote...



You mean, like the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn? I don't see blood magic as evil, and it has benevolent purposes (like creating the Grey Wardens through The Joining). Merrill uses blood magic, and she's a good (and smart) character.

Blood magic is a tool, and therefore not inherently evil or good. However, it uses blood as a source of power and can therefore avoid the limitations of normal magic.
Now the problem is this: in order to use blood magic to it's full potential you need more blood than you can safely give without dying. That means draining others and killing them in the process. 
Add to that the fact that blood magic allows mind control and you'll get a pretty good picture of why it's feared and forbidden.
Sure, a blood mage can only use his own blood to power his spells, but that means imposing restrictions on what he can do. 
Therefore, it's a lot easier to simply ban the use of blood magic, then to trust the mages to use it ethicaly.

Merrill is, undoubtably, a good hearted character, but she's hardly smart when it comes to blood magic. In fact, she learned blood magic after a demon tricked her into rebuilding the Eluvian. She thought it would save her people, while in truth it would have used the mirror to escape it's prison and possess Merrill.
I'd hardly call falling prey to temptation to be "smart", especially if you've been warned about making deals with demons beforehand.

LobselVith8 wrote...



There are free mages among the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and in the kingdom of Rivain, but they aren't societies built on blood magic or overrun with abominations. In fact, a codex mentions these societies in an argument for freeing the mages from templar control because they are "arguably, no worse off" than the Andrastian societies with the Chantry controlled Circles.

Yes, arguably. The fact is the codex gives us very little information on those societies to truly judge whether they're a better solution.

None of the societies in Thedas can claim to be overrun with abominations or are built on blood magic (except Tevinter, but only in regards to blood magic). That doesn't mean their solutions to such problems are more effective than what the Chantry has.
Also, some of them are entirely different cultures than what you'd find in andrastian lands, and may even have a different outlook on magic or possession (like Rivain does).
If people are comfortable enough to allow their mages to be possessed then it may as well be that they don't view possession as a problem, not that they control it better. 

[MasterSolo]

"This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination." This is from the dragon age wiki.

Blood magic comes from demons. It is never acknowledged or denied if a pact with a demon was made, by the Warden, Jowan, Morrigan, Wynne, Orlesian Warden etc.As it was suggested the reading of the specialization books might be a game-play mechanic that is inconsistent with the lore, for example the fact that Wynne is a blood mage is really inconsistent with her character. To learn the knowledge the Warden had to make a pact with a demon. As far as I remember from the ingame codex, the only way to learn blood magic at the current point in time(the Dragon Age) is from a demon, thus the risk of becoming an abomination, I could be wrong. The part with Anders stating that Merrill becoming a blood mage was an accident, might have been sarcasm, for all we know. This is all speculation, and it might be right or it might be wrong. Unless a game developer confirms one thing or the other, this remains just speculation. Also almost all of the ingame codex is the opinion of other people, which can also be wrong. Some of you need to relax and stop being so aggressive, towards people.

[Xilizhra]

And Fenris tells us the same scenario happened in Tevinter.
Mages were allowed to police themselves and afterward took over the templars, the Chantry and the Senate

Yes, because Tevinter had a millenia-old tradition of magisters ruling. It was a return to an old system, not the development of an entirely new one.
And mages aren't even free in Tevinter. The Circle system is still in place, and many mages are outright enslaved. Tevinter is just a place where the corrupt aristocracy all happen to be mages.

Now the problem is this: in order to use blood magic to it's full potential you need more blood than you can safely give without dying. That means draining others and killing them in the process.

Never in my experience. Even ignoring everything in-game, Merrill uses it quite a bit without ever draining others.

Merrill is, undoubtably, a good hearted character, but she's hardly smart when it comes to blood magic. In fact, she learned blood magic after a demon tricked her into rebuilding the Eluvian. She thought it would save her people, while in truth it would have used the mirror to escape it's prison and possess Merrill.

So you take the word of Marethari, a hostile abomination, at face value, then? Why?

I'd hardly call falling prey to temptation to be "smart", especially if you've been warned about making deals with demons beforehand.

It's not temptation, it's mind control. The only one who doesn't succumb is himself a spirit.

[Xilizhra]

"This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination." This is from the dragon age wiki.

Because the wiki is infinitely reliable. Especially when it calls the practice "rare" despite how, well, bloody common it seems to be.

[Sanarion]

I really, really don't know why the Chantry doesn't use mages more. I mean...they...have...magic. Would it have hurt so much for the templar to take the mages on walks? Offer free healing in the chantry? Or even paid-for healing? Use them to build stuff (Stone Magic), or even for mundane things like metal-working and food preservation. All in all, it just seems stupid to keep them locked up all the time when they could be doing some good. It wouldn't even be that big a danger, if the Templars kept a close watch.

The only thing I can really conclude is that the Templars are doing as much as they can to dehumanise the mages, and keep them looking like a threat. Paper tiger scheme for the chantry, as it is. "We protect you from mages, love us."

[Greta13]

Xilizhra wrote...

"This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination." This is from the dragon age wiki.

Because the wiki is infinitely reliable. Especially when it calls the practice "rare" despite how, well, bloody common it seems to be.

Took the words right out of my mouth (or keyboard)

[LobselVith8]

Mages are free among the Chasind, the Avvar, the Dalish,, and in the kingdom of Rivain, but none of those societies emulate the Imperium, Master Shiori. I find it to be disingenuous when people think the only outcome for not brutally oppressing mages is another Imperium when we have multiple cultures that demonstrate that this isn't the case.

Merrill shows a great deal more intelligence than most characters in the storyline. Culture shock does not mean Merrill is not an intelligent person. And no one "tricked" her to do anything. I think Marethari was foolish and did exactly what Audacity wanted her to go - which is to become an abomination. There's no evidence Audacity would have escaped from its prison through the Eluvian, which Merrill was building based on the shard she took from Ferelden and lore she had gathered.

If the Andrastian nations are on the verge of war because their brutal oppression of mages has lead to a revolution, I don't see how effective the Chantry controlled Circles have turned out to be when compared to the alternative societies where mages aren't under Chantry or templar control. None of those societies are fighting a war with their mages, after all.

[Elessie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

@Elessie, the Lyrium codex mentions that mages suffered from mutations in the Imperium for prolonged use, but it doesn't state that mages become addicted to lyrium like templars do.

It says "Lyrium has its costs, however.  Prolonged use becomes addictive, the craving unbearable."

Then it details what happens over time, and yes there it says Templars blah blah. 

But -then- it says "Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation."  If this is not saying physical mutation in addition to all the addiction symptoms just described, then what exactly is it in addition too?  Saying "additionally" makes no sense at all unless it's in addition to the effects just described.

Edit: Also, I found the thread that mentions the lyrium addiction mechanic that didn't make it into the game.  It's
described at the bottom of the page:  http://social.biowar.../index/349206/2

Modifié par Elessie, 12 mai 2011 - 02:02 .

[Deztyn]

Lorewise it never made sense to me that Templars could have super powers without a source for those powers. In my head the only reason Alistair and a Templar Warden aren't taking it at every opportunity is because the writers didn't want the LI/King to be drug addict.

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

And Fenris tells us the same scenario happened in Tevinter.
Mages were allowed to police themselves and afterward took over the templars, the Chantry and the Senate

 

As usual Fenris only tells you half the story.  What he glosses over (he does admit it but doesn't give it the importance it deserves) is that mages in Tevinter Culture come from important (and wealthy) families, and the people in Tevinter looked up to their mages as their social superiors and leaders for thousands of years.  Those attitudes don't disappear overnight because of a Blight and a Barbarian warrior prophetess/ex-slave.

The point is this:  The Tevinter mages were already culturally predisposed to take over the system if allowed to police themselves AND the rest of Tevinter was predisposed to not only let them but encourage them to do so.

That doesn't apply for the rest of Thedas.

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages are free among the Chasind, the Avvar, the Dalish,, and in the kingdom of Rivain, but none of those societies emulate the Imperium, Master Shiori. I find it to be disingenuous when people think the only outcome for not brutally oppressing mages is another Imperium when we have multiple cultures that demonstrate that this isn't the case.

Merrill shows a great deal more intelligence than most characters in the storyline. Culture shock does not mean Merrill is not an intelligent person. And no one "tricked" her to do anything. I think Marethari was foolish and did exactly what Audacity wanted her to go - which is to become an abomination. There's no evidence Audacity would have escaped from its prison through the Eluvian, which Merrill was building based on the shard she took from Ferelden and lore she had gathered.

If the Andrastian nations are on the verge of war because their brutal oppression of mages has lead to a revolution, I don't see how effective the Chantry controlled Circles have turned out to be when compared to the alternative societies where mages aren't under Chantry or templar control. None of those societies are fighting a war with their mages, after all.

My point was that we don't have enough information about the societies you mentioned to judge how well they're handling the mages. The fact that they have no Circles or templars doesn't mean they're free of all mage related problems.

The Chantry's methods, while unjust and in dire need of improvement, have kept mages under control for over a thousand years, so the system works. That doesn't mean the Chantry's system has no flaws or cannot be improved to benefit the mages in any way.

As for Merrill, she was tricked. Unless you honestly believe a Pride Demon simply wanted to help her without getting anything in return?
Marethari sarificed herself to protect Merrill. I wouldn't call that foolish, considering that someone would end up possessed had the mirror been completed. Marethari's actions speak volumes of how much she cared about Merrill and how far she was willing to go to protect her.
But as far as using blood magic goes, yes, Merrill was the most ethical blood mage in Dragon Age to date. But not everyone has such control and restrain.

[Augustei]

Master Shiori wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages are free among the Chasind, the Avvar, the Dalish,, and in the kingdom of Rivain, but none of those societies emulate the Imperium, Master Shiori. I find it to be disingenuous when people think the only outcome for not brutally oppressing mages is another Imperium when we have multiple cultures that demonstrate that this isn't the case.

Merrill shows a great deal more intelligence than most characters in the storyline. Culture shock does not mean Merrill is not an intelligent person. And no one "tricked" her to do anything. I think Marethari was foolish and did exactly what Audacity wanted her to go - which is to become an abomination. There's no evidence Audacity would have escaped from its prison through the Eluvian, which Merrill was building based on the shard she took from Ferelden and lore she had gathered.

If the Andrastian nations are on the verge of war because their brutal oppression of mages has lead to a revolution, I don't see how effective the Chantry controlled Circles have turned out to be when compared to the alternative societies where mages aren't under Chantry or templar control. None of those societies are fighting a war with their mages, after all.

My point was that we don't have enough information about the societies you mentioned to judge how well they're handling the mages. The fact that they have no Circles or templars doesn't mean they're free of all mage related problems.

The Chantry's methods, while unjust and in dire need of improvement, have kept mages under control for over a thousand years, so the system works. That doesn't mean the Chantry's system has no flaws or cannot be improved to benefit the mages in any way.

As for Merrill, she was tricked. Unless you honestly believe a Pride Demon simply wanted to help her without getting anything in return?
Marethari sarificed herself to protect Merrill. I wouldn't call that foolish, considering that someone would end up possessed had the mirror been completed. Marethari's actions speak volumes of how much she cared about Merrill and how far she was willing to go to protect her.
But as far as using blood magic goes, yes, Merrill was the most ethical blood mage in Dragon Age to date. But not everyone has such control and restrain.

Rivain still seems to be a standing nation however not completely decimated and overrun with demons so it must at least work to some effect.
It seems that even with circles and templars the chantrys solution is no efficient, 17 annulments and probably various demons throughout thedas as well isn't to great.  Merathari didn't need to sew distrust and fear among the clan so that they would try and kill her later anyway, she should have exercised her authority as keeper and forbidden it if she was truely concerned.

Merrill most ethical blood mage to date? not really.. Some of the times you receive approval from her are quite questioning.. Like killing her entire clan, Jowan seemed a far more ethical blood mage

[Master Shiori]

Xilizhra wrote...

And Fenris tells us the same scenario happened in Tevinter.
Mages were allowed to police themselves and afterward took over the templars, the Chantry and the Senate

Yes, because Tevinter had a millenia-old tradition of magisters ruling. It was a return to an old system, not the development of an entirely new one.
And mages aren't even free in Tevinter. The Circle system is still in place, and many mages are outright enslaved. Tevinter is just a place where the corrupt aristocracy all happen to be mages.

The point is such a system became accepted because those mages don't care about serving the common good. They only care for their own power and advencement.

While nobody can claim that every mage would follow suit and become a tyrant, there is also no guarantee that they wouldn't. Therefore, the only way to prevent the rise of another Tevinter is to have some other group watching over mages and ensure they don't cross the line. That doesn't mean that anyone policing the mages is free to abuse it's power.

Xilizhra wrote...

Now the problem is this: in order to use blood magic to it's full potential you need more blood than you can safely give without dying. That means draining others and killing them in the process.

Never in my experience. Even ignoring everything in-game, Merrill uses it quite a bit without ever draining others.

Huon and Hadriana. 

Merrill only uses her own blood. That makes her use of blood magic ethical, but not every mage will abide by such restrictions.

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill is, undoubtably, a good hearted character, but she's hardly smart when it comes to blood magic. In fact, she learned blood magic after a demon tricked her into rebuilding the Eluvian. She thought it would save her people, while in truth it would have used the mirror to escape it's prison and possess Merrill.

So you take the word of Marethari, a hostile abomination, at face value, then? Why?

Maybe because Marethari raised Merrill and loves her like her own daughter? Or maybe because she only became an abomination to save Merrill from such a fate?
It was, after all, Marethari herself that told you how to destroy the demon once and for all and who was willing to die so that Merrill may be free.

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd hardly call falling prey to temptation to be "smart", especially if you've been warned about making deals with demons beforehand.

It's not temptation, it's mind control. The only one who doesn't succumb is himself a spirit.

No, it's not. The demon played upon her pride and offered her the one thing Merrill would have risked everything for: salvation for her people. She made the deal willingly.

[Xilizhra]

The point is such a system became accepted because those mages don't care about serving the common good. They only care for their own power and advencement.

Like... always? In a non-Tevinter nation, a new system would have different results.

Merrill only uses her own blood. That makes her use of blood magic ethical, but not every mage will abide by such restrictions.

Not everyone abides by such restrictions on anything either.

Maybe because Marethari raised Merrill and loves her like her own daughter? Or maybe because she only became an abomination to save Merrill from such a fate?

Which she says... after she was possessed. Talk about trusting demons quickly...

It was, after all, Marethari herself that told you how to destroy the demon once and for all and who was willing to die so that Merrill may be free.

Merrill already knew about killing Keepers who'd been possessed; it wasn't actually helpful information. I'm fairly certain Audacity only did that to taunt Merrill.

No, it's not. The demon played upon her pride and offered her the one thing Merrill would have risked everything for: salvation for her people. She made the deal willingly.

Pride was only a gateway. There's no possible way she could have refused.

[Master Shiori]

XxDeonxX wrote...


Rivain still seems to be a standing nation however not completely decimated and overrun with demons so it must at least work to some effect.
It seems that even with circles and templars the chantrys solution is no efficient, 17 annulments and probably various demons throughout thedas as well isn't to great.  Merathari didn't need to sew distrust and fear among the clan so that they would try and kill her later anyway, she should have exercised her authority as keeper and forbidden it if she was truely concerned.

Merrill most ethical blood mage to date? not really.. Some of the times you receive approval from her are quite questioning.. Like killing her entire clan, Jowan seemed a far more ethical blood mage

Every system works to some effect. Qunari, Chantry, Tevinter and others all have systems that "work", since those nations didn't get overrun by demons.
What we're discussing here is how to create a system that both "works" and is just and fair for everyone involved.

The Dalish also have problems with their mages getting possessed time to time, but since there are fever mages born among the Dalish over the years, it makes it easier to control those that exist. 

The approval you mentioned wasn't for killing her clan, but for protecting Merrill from them. Sure, she seems to approve of you making deals with demons, just as she did, but other than that you won't get approval for commiting evil acts.
Jowan basicaly made a mess of eveything he did, despite his good intentions, so he's hardly a shinning example of ethical or responsible mage.

[Xilizhra]

She specifically approves of listening to demons, not making deals with them. She just doesn't want you to reject them out of hand.

[Master Shiori]

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is such a system became accepted because those mages don't care about serving the common good. They only care for their own power and advencement.

Like... always? In a non-Tevinter nation, a new system would have different results.

And you base that on what? Wishfull thinking?

No, such a system didn't always exist in Tevinter either, yet once it was in place the mages accepted it and aren't willing to change it.
But as long as Tevinter exists as an example of what can happen once mages take control, no non-mage would be wiling to risk the same happening in his/her own nation. 

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill only uses her own blood. That makes her use of blood magic ethical, but not every mage will abide by such restrictions.

Not everyone abides by such restrictions on anything either.

Exactly. 

Which is why there needs to be a force that can ensure those lines aren't crossed and to punish those who do cross it.
In case of non-mages that's Aveline and the city guard. For mages that role is fulfilled by the templars.

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe because Marethari raised Merrill and loves her like her own daughter? Or maybe because she only became an abomination to save Merrill from such a fate?

Which she says... after she was possessed. Talk about trusting demons quickly...

You've met many demons that are eager to tell you how to kill them?

That was Marethari who told you that, not the demon within her. The demon was the one who later tried to convince you it was defeated without killing Marethari.

Xilizhra wrote...

It was, after all, Marethari herself that told you how to destroy the demon once and for all and who was willing to die so that Merrill may be free.

Merrill already knew about killing Keepers who'd been possessed; it wasn't actually helpful information. I'm fairly certain Audacity only did that to taunt Merrill.

She didn't know Marethari was possessed until the Keeper told her that herself. 

Xilizhra wrote...

No, it's not. The demon played upon her pride and offered her the one thing Merrill would have risked everything for: salvation for her people. She made the deal willingly.

Pride was only a gateway. There's no possible way she could have refused.

Like how Sebastian "couldn't" refuse Allure's offer? 

The demon will play upon your emotions like pride or desire to offer you what you always wanted. But it cannot force you to accept, only tempt you to the point where it's difficult to refuse. But refusal is never impossible if one is strong enough to resist.

The mage Warden, Morrigan and Wynne were all able to refuse the Desire Demons offer in DA:O. Hawke was tempted once by a hunger demon in Primeval Thaig and again by Torfor in the Fade. He/she could refuse both times. 
If Merrill couldn't, it's because she wasn't strong enough to resist, not because resistance itself was impossible.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 12 mai 2011 - 01:49 .

[Augustei]

Master Shiori wrote...
Jowan basicaly made a mess of eveything he did, despite his good intentions, so he's hardly a shinning example of ethical or responsible mage.

Unlike Merrill whose actions didn't get her whole clan possibly killed, who didn't make a deal with a powerful pride demon.

All Jowan did was read some books to learn enough blood magic to escape the circle, since his love for lily was forbidden. And then after that all he did was follow the instructions of The Hero of Ferelden (the previous one) which is not on the same level as falling prey to a demon.. Since demons aren't known as national heroes who brought freedom to ferelden from Orlais.

[Xilizhra]

No, such a system didn't always exist in Tevinter either, yet once it was in place the mages accepted it and aren't willing to change it.
But as long as Tevinter exists as an example of what can happen once mages take control, no non-mage would be wiling to risk the same happening in his/her own nation.

Well, it's entirely possible that it was started by the Old Gods, a kick that other nations wouldn't have.

Which is why there needs to be a force that can ensure those lines aren't crossed and to punish those who do cross it.
In case of non-mages that's Aveline and the city guard. For mages that role is fulfilled by the templars.

Acceptable, if secular.

You've met many demons that are eager to tell you how to kill them?

We already knew how; it wasn't new information.

She didn't know Marethari was possessed until the Keeper told her that herself.

I suspect Audacity wanted to destroy Merrill mentally and that was one of its means.

Like how Sebastian "couldn't" refuse Allure's offer?

The demon will play upon your emotions like pride or desire to offer you what you always wanted. But it cannot force you to accept, only tempt you to the point where it's difficult to refuse. But refusal is never impossible if one is strong enough to resist.

The mage Warden, Morrigan and Wynne were all able to refuse the Desire Demons offer in DA:O. Hawke was tempted once by a hunger demon in Primeval Thaig and again by Torfor in the Fade. He/she could refuse both times.
If Merrill couldn't, it's because she wasn't strong enough to resist, not because resistance itself was impossible.

None of them except Torpor was in a demonic Fade realm. And Torpor was much weaker than both Caress and Wryme. Anyone facing the temptations of those two couldn't resist (unless Hawke worked on them slowly, like with Feynriel, but in the case of the companions, the demon is telling them to kill Hawke right then, so she didn't have time).

Unlike Merrill whose actions didn't get her whole clan possibly killed, who didn't make a deal with a powerful pride demon.

It was Marethari who terrified them and the clan themselves who choose to try and kill Hawke for telling the truth. Merrill bears no responsibility.

[jlb524]

MasterSolo wrote...

"This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination." This is from the dragon age wiki.

This statement proves that blood magic doesn't have to be learned from a demon.  It implies that blood magic can be learned in other ways besides contacting a demon.

Because there aren't too many mages practicing blood magic or those that possess books on it, most aspiring blood mages need to learn it from a demon, but this doesn't mean that a demon is the only place this knowledge comes from.

[Sylvianus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the difference is that it doesn't seem that mages become addicted to lyrium (since there's no mention of this in Origins or DA2), while templars do become addicted (which makes many of them crave more and more lyrium over time). The mage protagonist never makes any reference to mages suffering from lyrium withdrawal or anything similar when Alistair discusses how templars become addicted to lyrium, and he views it as a means of control by the Chantry to keep templars in line.

- Mages get crazy, become isane with Lyrium. Only appeased can touch it. Therefore they are very useful and only able to do enchantments.

- Blood magic was used to bury Arlathann in darkness by Tevinter. - This is the only way that Tevinter have won against elves.  Through the corruption and destruction of a world with catastrophic effects.

- They used the blood of thousands of human slaves and elves to accomplish their goals through the centuries.  Greedy, they increasingly need blood to be satiated.

- Mages have attempted to explore the intangible with blood magic. They have released twelves demon lord and a hundred evil spirit.

- They have corrupted the gold city,  they tried to reach it with blood magic.

- Blood magic is destructive to the enemy and sometimes also for its user.

- Also, blood magic was used by Tevinter's mages to call armies of demons and abominations, to quell people's revolts.

Practice of blood magic, is not the same thing, as do create a spell in connection with the blood.

The Warden at Ostagar never asked to do blood magic for the ritual. It is impossible. And there was also the Templars who were watching mages. No, they used blood as a property, like any plant.

If that blood magic is prohibited, it is for reasons other than dogmatic. That pragmatism to consider it as a potential threat and very dangerous given everything it did, and all it can do.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 12 mai 2011 - 04:24 .

[Master Shiori]

Xilizhra wrote...

I suspect Audacity wanted to destroy Merrill mentally and that was one of its means.

Audacity wanted a way out of it's prison and Eluvian would have been it's doorway. Merrill would have served as it's host.

Demons don't seek to drive people insane. They want to enter our world and need to possess a host in order to do so, unless summoned by a mage.
It's not a hard concept to grasp. Merrill wanted to restore the Eluvian so her people may learn of their past. The demon used that to trick her into freeing it. Marethari tried to save Merrill by imprisoning the demon within herself and revealing that to Merrill and Hawke so they can kill her and destroy the demon.

Xilizhra wrote...


None of them except Torpor was in a demonic Fade realm. And Torpor was much weaker than both Caress and Wryme. Anyone facing the temptations of those two couldn't resist (unless Hawke worked on them slowly, like with Feynriel, but in the case of the companions, the demon is telling them to kill Hawke right then, so she didn't have time).

Mage Warden was tempted by pride demon in the Fade during his/her Harrowing. Warden, Morrigan or Wynne confronted the Desire Demon in the Fade. 
Temptation from demons is something mages constantly face. They face it during their Harrowing and whenever they enter the Fade. Most of them can go their whole lives and never fall pray to it.
Your argument that non mage companions couldn't resist the temptation has merrit because they never received the training that mages do. Merrill has been trained by the Keeper, and has entered Fade before. She knew full well not to trust demons yet failed to resist it's temptation.
If your theory about mages being unable to resist offers from demons while in the Fade was true, then avoiding possession would be impossible unless mages were made tranquil and, therefore, cut off from the Fade forever.

[LobselVith8]

Master Shiori,

David Gaider has acknowledged the Chasind and the Rivain mages are free because I asked him about this issue three months ago (where IanPolaris and EmperorSahlertz were also posting) and he said: "They exist without controlling mages." I would assume this is true of the Avvar, who are almost identical to the Chasind (they simply split off into different areas). He addressed that when an abomination happens, they deal with it, which seems to be exactly what Merrill says happens with the Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus,

The Joining is Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. It can be considered blood magic. David Gaider even said at PAX that the phylacteries used by the templars could be seen as a form of blood magic. That means that the creation of the Wardens, as well as the means to stop the Blight, is only possible because of blood magic. I acknowledge that it has been used for malevolent purposes, but that doesn't make weapons evil - it depends entirely on the person. Duncan has said some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to fight the darkspawn, and I think protecting people from the greatest threat humanity has ever faced is noble.

We even see the blood Mage Jowan, who learned blood magic from books, can become Master Levyn, using his magic to protect refugees from the darkspawn. We see Merrill, who uses blood magic and is one of the more intelligent characters we need to handle the skill, use it proficiently for several years. It's only when Marethari falls for Audacity's trap and becomes an abomination that the Keeper endangers everyone, since she never warned anyone she was going to become an abomination. Merrill, on the other hand, never fell for the trick and became an abomination like the Keeper did.