123 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Audacity wanted a way out of it's prison and Eluvian would have been it's doorway. Merrill would have served as it's host.

Again, according the abomination's own word. You're far quicker to trust demons than I am, it seems.

Demons don't seek to drive people insane. They want to enter our world and need to possess a host in order to do so, unless summoned by a mage.

Neither of our theories can explain why, upon possessing Marethari, Audacity didn't just leave. Demons do tend to enjoy causing havoc, however.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. Merrill wanted to restore the Eluvian so her people may learn of their past. The demon used that to trick her into freeing it. Marethari tried to save Merrill by imprisoning the demon within herself and revealing that to Merrill and Hawke so they can kill her and destroy the demon.

I think the whole idea of the Eluvian freeing Audacity was crap. Audacity didn't care about the Eluvian; it was trying to lure Merrill in with pride in her own magic, by teaching her blood magic. However, it failed because Merrill was too selfless to be caught up in that. Hence, it turned its attention to Marethari, who always seemed far more prideful to me in any case; she may have been possessed as early as Act 2.

Mage Warden was tempted by pride demon in the Fade during his/her Harrowing. Warden, Morrigan or Wynne confronted the Desire Demon in the Fade.

The Harrowing didn't take place in a demonic realm, and Connor's demon was focused on Connor.

Your argument that non mage companions couldn't resist the temptation has merrit because they never received the training that mages do. Merrill has been trained by the Keeper, and has entered Fade before. She knew full well not to trust demons yet failed to resist it's temptation.

Mind control, not just temptation.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Shiori,

David Gaider has acknowledged the Chasind and the Rivain mages are free because I asked him about this issue three months ago (where IanPolaris and EmperorSahlertz were also posting) and he said: "They exist without controlling mages." I would assume this is true of the Avvar, who are almost identical to the Chasind (they simply split off into different areas). He addressed that when an abomination happens, they deal with it, which seems to be exactly what Merrill says happens with the Dalish.

From what I understand, the Chasind are a primitive wilderness people who don't have much of a centralized society at all. I'm not really sure that you'd want to use them as an example for a society that you'd want to emulate, and there really isn't much information about them at all. I'm also not sure what the story is with the governmental structure in Rivain, but the mages there don't seem to be terribly powerful (since Isabela's mother made a living pretending to be one). Neither the Chasind nor the Rivaini are well documented in how their society works, or how they treat mages. 

[SheilaD67]

The reason why the chantry will never willingly allow for the mages to police themselves: they would become financially weakened.
They have a huge army - the Templars.  As Alistair says, the Chantry calls them defense, but don't let that fool you - they are an army.  So, they need to be able to support that army.  Now, we don't want to take away from the tithes they receive (how else will the Devine be able to keep those oppulent chantries?  Those warm and cozy robes?  By feeding the hungry?  Naw!).  So, they have mages create potions that can be sold.  But, wait!  That doesn't make nearly enough money, so make the mages tranquil, and viola!  You have a non-magic wielding mage who can now enchant and create magical items.  And people, despite being oh so wary of magic, will pay handsomely to have a magical item! 

Added bonus: Those made tranquil will do anything - anything - you command them to do and they will neither fight against it or complain. Merely comply.  Ah, Ser Alrick anyone?

Now, I've read the arguments here, and one thing that seems to be overlooked:  mages are people.  Pure and simple.  Some will make good decisions, others bad ones.  That's all part of being human.  Now, when a non-mage makes a bad decision, they get punished for that decision. But, not mages.  They are punished for being what they are by accident of birth, and that punishment begins as soon as that ability (a gift according to the Chant of Light; a curse when you speak with anyone in the chantry).  Whether from imprisonment, death or tranquility, that fate decided by one of the Chantry's lyrium addicted, mage-hating goons.

The Tevinter Imperium is rather like the Roman Empire - the wealthy and powerful rule, and are allowed to live out even their basest of desires.  Because, like those Roman politicians who rose to power, they have no conscience regarding how those desires are met, and therefore they can rise quicker in power and position. Those mages who would not do anything, who merely wish to be the best they can be, help out their fellow man, etc., are usually the least powerful because they will not use any means at their disposal.  It's historical fact.

And, like the Roman Empire, I see that the Tevinter Imperium will fall one day to its own hubris and decadance, to be resurrected by those more pious and giving.  Not necessarily religious - we all know that some of the greatest autrocities in history are performed in the name of religion.

There are those societies that do not imprison their mages, and, as stated in this thread, they are no worse off than any other society. 

And, unlike the Chantry enslaved mages, the mages in those societies can live and become contributing members of society.

Or they can be the Ted Bundy of them all.

Just as any other human being.

The argument can be made that mages have the power to cast spells that can injure, kill or take over the mind of another.

I can argue that there are many folks in this world that can peform mind control over those weaker willed.  Doesn't take magic to do that.

And, the templars are a fine example that those magics can be countered.

So, why not have a society where the templars are incorporated into the police force, there for when mages get out of control, and need to be stopped?

Oh, wait...yeah, forgot...how can the Chantry make their money then?

[Aldandil]

Xilizhra wrote...

Audacity wanted a way out of it's prison and Eluvian would have been it's doorway. Merrill would have served as it's host.

Again, according the abomination's own word. You're far quicker to trust demons than I am, it seems.

Demons don't seek to drive people insane. They want to enter our world and need to possess a host in order to do so, unless summoned by a mage.

Neither of our theories can explain why, upon possessing Marethari, Audacity didn't just leave. Demons do tend to enjoy causing havoc, however.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. Merrill wanted to restore the Eluvian so her people may learn of their past. The demon used that to trick her into freeing it. Marethari tried to save Merrill by imprisoning the demon within herself and revealing that to Merrill and Hawke so they can kill her and destroy the demon.

I think the whole idea of the Eluvian freeing Audacity was crap. Audacity didn't care about the Eluvian; it was trying to lure Merrill in with pride in her own magic, by teaching her blood magic. However, it failed because Merrill was too selfless to be caught up in that. Hence, it turned its attention to Marethari, who always seemed far more prideful to me in any case; she may have been possessed as early as Act 2.

Mage Warden was tempted by pride demon in the Fade during his/her Harrowing. Warden, Morrigan or Wynne confronted the Desire Demon in the Fade.

The Harrowing didn't take place in a demonic realm, and Connor's demon was focused on Connor.

Your argument that non mage companions couldn't resist the temptation has merrit because they never received the training that mages do. Merrill has been trained by the Keeper, and has entered Fade before. She knew full well not to trust demons yet failed to resist it's temptation.

Mind control, not just temptation.

Well, another way of interpreting what happens between Merrill, Marethari and Audacity would be that Audacity convinces Merrill to become a Blood mage and to recreate the Eluvian, an enterprise that is somewhat audacious considering how little Merrill knows about either subject. Audacity knows that Merrill won't be able to finish the task, and be tempted to return and run the risk of being possessed to learn more, which is exactly what happens. Audacity doesn't think Merrill will be able to resist possession, due to her pride and her desire to finish the Eluvian. Marethari believes the same thing, and contains Audacity within herself. Marethari isn't possessed at this point, but carries a spirit within her, similar to Anders. I believe Merrill probably would have been possessed and killed by Hawke unless Marethari would have acted. Marethari would rather die herself than let Merrill be possessed and killed, so it all makes sense character-wise so far. Marethari probably would not tell her clan she was an abomination waiting to happen, but it still doesn't make sense why she didn't let the clan know just before she entered the cave.

[AtreiyaN7]

As far as I can tell, mages can't be controlled through lyrium and don't get addicted to it. I have yet to see a mage acting like any of the lyrium-addled templars that I've seen. Look at Wynne - she must have used lyrium potions all her life. Maybe mages just metabolize it differently, heh. In any case, when I hear about mages policing themselves, I kind of have to point to the Tevinter Imperium as a reason why that's not a good idea. And I'm a mage supporter who plays mages for the most part. I want mages to have more freedom, but yeah, I don't know how this revolution will turn out. I don't know that Thedas mages will be less vulnerable to temptation than Tevinter magisters. Absolute power corrupts absolutely after all. Maybe templars like Thrask could find some sort of middle way (his idea that templars and mages could work together was interesting).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 mai 2011 - 06:05 .

[Sylvianus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus,

The Joining is Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. It can be considered blood magic. David Gaider even said at PAX that the phylacteries used by the templars could be seen as a form of blood magic. That means that the creation of the Wardens, as well as the means to stop the Blight, is only possible because of blood magic. I acknowledge that it has been used for malevolent purposes, but that doesn't make weapons evil - it depends entirely on the person. Duncan has said some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to fight the darkspawn, and I think protecting people from the greatest threat humanity has ever faced is noble.

We even see the blood Mage Jowan, who learned blood magic from books, can become Master Levyn, using his magic to protect refugees from the darkspawn. We see Merrill, who uses blood magic and is one of the more intelligent characters we need to handle the skill, use it proficiently for several years. It's only when Marethari falls for Audacity's trap and becomes an abomination that the Keeper endangers everyone, since she never warned anyone she was going to become an abomination. Merrill, on the other hand, never fell for the trick and became an abomination like the Keeper did.

David Gaider said that ? Oh, ok.

I didn't know for Jowan using his magic to protect refugiees from darkspawn. And yes, protecting people from the greatest threat humanity is noble. You might be right. That said, it is difficult to treat blood magic as something to legalize after all that has been done. Experiments controlled by the Templars and the Magi in circle, without legalizing might be a good thing. But embarking on a large scale in this kind of thing for me is a mistake. I tend to believe that humanity must learn from history.
　

But, not mages. They are punished for being what they are by accident of birth, and that punishment begins as soon as that ability (a gift according to the Chant of Light; a curse when you speak with anyone in the chantry). Whether from imprisonment, death or tranquility, that fate decided by one of the Chantry's lyrium addicted, mage-hating goons.

The problem is that normal humans are not vulnerable to the appeal of the demons when they sleep. Each dream can be fatal for a mage who can become an abomination or possessed after that. Ignore it is to condemn an entire society.

[SheilaD67]

Actually, Sylvianus, both games aptly show that non-mages can become possessed. Sure, not during their sleeping hours (maybe?) but they do become possessed. I seem to recall killing quite a few possessed templars during the Broken Circle quest. Oh, yeah! And Wilmod was an abomination as well.

And no one is saying to ignore it, however, the punish someone who 'may' become an abomination isn't cool. It's rather like treating all children of criminals as the dwarves do - just toss them all into Dust Town as non-entities.

[Maria Caliban]

A demon in the mortal realm can mind control a templar. That's not the same as a mage becoming an abomination.

[Sylvianus]

And no one is saying to ignore it, however, the punish someone who 'may' become an abomination isn't cool. It's rather like treating all children of criminals as the dwarves do - just toss them all into Dust Town as non-entities.

Indeed.

Unfortunately, we can not consider them like any normal human. This is not a will, it is a reality to which everyone must adapt. To find the best solutions to this specificity, it is a factor we must consider.

But I agree in saying that there may be better solutions in the treatment of the Magi and punish someone who "may" become an abomination isn't cool. What is important for me is to never forget the dangers of their birth and their power. This blessing, this curse. A crucial responsibility. Not as punishment of course but as a fact, an element without which any solution is bound to be bad.

[SheilaD67]

Maria Caliban wrote...

A demon in the mortal realm can mind control a templar. That's not the same as a mage becoming an abomination.

Did you miss the quest where Wilmod - a templar - becomes an abomination?

And, Sylvianus.  You and I are on the same track.  Mages should not be punished, should be allowed to live their lives as human beings. But, precautions do need to be in place. Templars are needed, but not as jailors.  I do not think that Andraste meant that mages needed to be imprisoned, merely that magic was to serve man, not rule over him.  It was the Emporor (can't recall his name) who created the church (much like the English king did with the Christian church and then proceeded to redact books from the Bible) and then it all went down hill from there.

Since it's been stated by someone in the know (Gaider) that the cultures that allow for free mages are no worse off than those that imprison and torture mages, perhaps an argument can be made that the number of abominations seen in Chantry held countries are due to emotional distress?  Look at what happens during the final battle, as you make you way to the Gallows:  You meet mages, many that could not possibly be blood mages (I think of that girl that the templars corner in the Foundry), yet they turned into abominations.  Emotional distress, if I recall correctly, is another factor for abominations.  Extreme emotional distress (like a person in a big metal suit wielding a big sword coming to cut you down?  Or not being able to live your life without the fear of becoming tranquil if you look cross eyed at one of those metal bearing people?).

[Maria Caliban]

Eva Galana wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

A demon in the mortal realm can mind control a templar. That's not the same as a mage becoming an abomination.

Did you miss the quest where Wilmod - a templar - becomes an abomination?

Did you miss the part where a blood mage placed a demon in his body?

No blood mage, no abomination.

[SheilaD67]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

A demon in the mortal realm can mind control a templar. That's not the same as a mage becoming an abomination.

Did you miss the quest where Wilmod - a templar - becomes an abomination?

Did you miss the part where a blood mage placed a demon in his body?

No blood mage, no abomination.

Never said it wouldn't happen. Your argument was that only mages can become possessed.  I clarified that wasn't so.

Modifié par Eva Galana, 12 mai 2011 - 06:51 .

[LobselVith8]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

In any case, when I hear about mages policing themselves, I kind of have to point to the Tevinter Imperium as a reason why that's not a good idea.

So out of the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain, where we know there are free mages, we're only going to look at the Tevinter Imperium? Why? When we look at these other societies, there are mages who aren't controlled by the Chantry or the templars, but they aren't trying to emulate the regime of the Imperium. Even the Grey Warden mages have freedom that is denied to the Circle mages - including having children who aren't taken away by the Chantry, per David Gaider - but I don't see them trying to replicate the Imperium even though they are free.

[GSSAGE7]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Even the Grey Warden mages have freedom that is denied to the Circle mages - including having children who aren't taken away by the Chantry, per David Gaider.

I hate to nit-pick, but Grey Wardens don't have that particular freedom either. That's why Fiona gave her son to Maric. The only difference is that Grey Wardens get to choose who to give the child to.

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Wardens do have that freedom, GSSAGE7. Fiona gave her child to Maric, no one forces the Wardens not to marry or have children when we see a married Warden in Amaranthine and we know Oghren has a child with Felsi.

[SheilaD67]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Even the Grey Warden mages have freedom that is denied to the Circle mages - including having children who aren't taken away by the Chantry, per David Gaider.

I hate to nit-pick, but Grey Wardens don't have that particular freedom either. That's why Fiona gave her son to Maric. The only difference is that Grey Wardens get to choose who to give the child to.

I thought that Grey Wardens can keep their children, but the Order discourages active Wardens to parent the kids.  It's a choice - keep the child, retire; remain active, foster the child elsewhere.

And, Fiona's case was unique in that she no longer carried the taint, and was ordered to remain in Weisshaupt.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So out of the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain, where we know there are free mages, we're only going to look at the Tevinter Imperium? Why?

Because the Tevinters are the only ones besides (possibly) Rivain who have something approaching an established, civilized society. The dalish are nomads who don't put down roots, and are constantly moving away from possible threats. Is that the ideal mage society? The Chasind and Avvar are both primitive people who lack education for both their mages and non-mages. Should the liberated circle mages go back to hunting down small animals and living in mud huts while revering and fearing the witches of the wild? 

You could say that they should emulate Rivain, but there's almost no information about Rivain at all. The wiki entry says they revere the seers who contact spirits, but also prohibit magic. I don't really see why you keep calling it a kingdom; can you link a source to anything about Rivain's governmental or societal structure? All I know about it is that they have seers who don't seem to be that powerful, since Isabela's mother made a living by pretending to be one. I've found very little information about Rivain as a nation. 

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So out of the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain, where we know there are free mages, we're only going to look at the Tevinter Imperium? Why?

Because the Tevinters are the only ones besides (possibly) Rivain who have something approaching an established, civilized society. The dalish are nomads who don't put down roots, and are constantly moving away from possible threats. Is that the ideal mage society? The Chasind and Avvar are both primitive people who lack education for both their mages and non-mages. Should the liberated circle mages go back to hunting down small animals and living in mud huts while revering and fearing the witches of the wild? 

You could say that they should emulate Rivain, but there's almost no information about Rivain at all. The wiki entry says they revere the seers who contact spirits, but also prohibit magic. I don't really see why you keep calling it a kingdom; can you link a source to anything about Rivain's governmental or societal structure? All I know about it is that they have seers who don't seem to be that powerful, since Isabela's mother made a living by pretending to be one. I've found very little information about Rivain as a nation. 

Arlathan and the Kingdom of the Dales were also established and civilized societies that were not at all like Tevinter but also had mage freedom (at least as much as other citizens).  They fell, yes, but not because of magic.  The first fell because they lost a war against Ancient Tevinter.  The second fell becasue of an Exalted March of very questionable legality by the Chantry.

The point is such societies ARE possible without having to be like Tevinter.

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

IanPolaris wrote...

Arlathan and the Kingdom of the Dales were also established and civilized societies that were not at all like Tevinter but also had mage freedom (at least as much as other citizens).  They fell, yes, but not because of magic.  The first fell because they lost a war against Ancient Tevinter.  The second fell becasue of an Exalted March of very questionable legality by the Chantry.

The point is such societies ARE possible without having to be like Tevinter.

-Polaris

One would question the practicality of emulating a society that nobody remembers the details of, not even the people who are actively trying to restore them. 

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Arlathan and the Kingdom of the Dales were also established and civilized societies that were not at all like Tevinter but also had mage freedom (at least as much as other citizens).  They fell, yes, but not because of magic.  The first fell because they lost a war against Ancient Tevinter.  The second fell becasue of an Exalted March of very questionable legality by the Chantry.

The point is such societies ARE possible without having to be like Tevinter.

-Polaris

One would question the practicality of emulating a society that nobody remembers the details of, not even the people who are actively trying to restore them. 

I never suggested that we should.  However given that such systems are possible and given the Chantry circle system has failed and is never coming back, it behooves everyone to try to come up with a workable system of magic regulation rather than sweeping all proposals under the carpet by those that want a return to a failed system.

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

IanPolaris wrote...

I never suggested that we should.  However given that such systems are possible and given the Chantry circle system has failed and is never coming back, it behooves everyone to try to come up with a workable system of magic regulation rather than sweeping all proposals under the carpet by those that want a return to a failed system.

-Polaris

I never said anything about "sweeping proposals under the carpet", or "returning to a failed system". I merely point out that most folks tend to try to be like winners, and of the nations that embraced mage freedom, the Tevinters are (in terms of stability and international political power) the most successful example, which is why everyone immediately thinks that freed mages will try to emulate that type of society. Why? Because it's been shown to work, and has a track record that runs for centuries.

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


I never said anything about "sweeping proposals under the carpet", or "returning to a failed system". I merely point out that most folks tend to try to be like winners, and of the nations that embraced mage freedom, the Tevinters are (in terms of stability and international political power) the most successful example, which is why everyone immediately thinks that freed mages will try to emulate that type of society. Why? Because it's been shown to work, and has a track record that runs for centuries.

I point out in return that the number one scapegoat that has kept the Chantry from even considering alternatives has been the Ancient Tevinter Imperium, and so I will call it for what it is:  A scape goat.

-Polaris

[Blacklash93]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

A demon in the mortal realm can mind control a templar. That's not the same as a mage becoming an abomination.

Did you miss the quest where Wilmod - a templar - becomes an abomination?

Did you miss the part where a blood mage placed a demon in his body?

No blood mage, no abomination.

You don't need to be a blood mage to become posessed. Any mage can fall victim to demons.

Edit: I'm assuming you're talking about posession in general, here.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 13 mai 2011 - 09:53 .

[Deztyn]

Eva Galana wrote...

Actually, Sylvianus, both games aptly show that non-mages can become possessed. Sure, not during their sleeping hours (maybe?) but they do become possessed. I seem to recall killing quite a few possessed templars during the Broken Circle quest. Oh, yeah! And Wilmod was an abomination as well.

And no one is saying to ignore it, however, the punish someone who 'may' become an abomination isn't cool. It's rather like treating all children of criminals as the dwarves do - just toss them all into Dust Town as non-entities.

A nonmage abomination is no more powerful than an demon in the physical realm. They can hide themselves, like Wilmod. That's the only thing that makes them more dangerous than an ordinary demon.

A mage abomination has both the power of the demon, and access to the mages entire reserve of potential power. That makes them much, much more dangerous as well as giving them the ability to hide.

Mages are naturally susceptible and a demon will try to possess any mage it encounters in the Fade. It will outright take control of the weak minded, it will try to trick or coerce the stronger.

And every known instance of a possession of a nonmage by a demon a mage has been involved somewhere in the process. Wilmod and friends had demons implanted in them against their will by a powerful mage. In the Broken Circle all the demons were summoned by mages. Even the Hahriman's were only influenced by the desire demon because of what the Tevinter Magisters did centuries ago to weaken the Fade.

You can't compare a mundane's possession to a mages they are not equivalent.

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 mai 2011 - 01:39 .

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

A demon in the mortal realm can mind control a templar. That's not the same as a mage becoming an abomination.

Did you miss the quest where Wilmod - a templar - becomes an abomination?

Did you miss the part where a blood mage placed a demon in his body?

No blood mage, no abomination.

Cullen says that demons in solid form can summon other demons into unwilling hosts. So it's not just a blood mage who can make a non-mage possessed. Demons can too.