123 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Demons have been known to possess people, corpses, animals, trees, and even one of the Rockwraiths that Hawke encounters is possessed by a Hunger Demon (as Merrill points out).

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Cullen says that demons in solid form can summon other demons into unwilling hosts. So it's not just a blood mage who can make a non-mage possessed. Demons can too.

Yes, but what Cullen doesn't say (and might not know) is that he saw this under some very special (even unique) circumstances.  Can it be done with a thin veil?  Yes.  Is it easy?  Apparently not.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Ian, he said he's heard that it can be done. He never said he saw it performed, though he has now been witness to an example of it.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ian, he said he's heard that it can be done. He never said he saw it performed, though he has now been witness to an example of it.

He knows it can be done because he was a witness to it.  We know that from DAO.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Was the Veil confirmed to be thin in the Circle tower? We don't know. and all of the abominations we faced were ones that accepted Uldred's offer.

[LobselVith8]

In the US ending for the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden, it's said that the Veil is thin in the Circle Tower, and this is why the ruler will order that the Tower be rebuilt somewhere else, with a statute of the Hero of Ferelden. However, it's difficult to pinpoint when the Veil became thin. There's no mention of the Veil being thin in the Primeval Thaig, but a Hunger Demon was able to possess one of the Profane.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In the US ending for the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden, it's said that the Veil is thin in the Circle Tower, and this is why the ruler will order that the Tower be rebuilt somewhere else, with a statute of the Hero of Ferelden. However, it's difficult to pinpoint when the Veil became thin. There's no mention of the Veil being thin in the Primeval Thaig, but a Hunger Demon was able to possess one of the Profane.

Given the amount of raw lyrium and sponatenous Shades as well as profane, I'd be shocked if the veil wasn't thin in the Primeval Thaig.

-Polaris

[HTTP 404]

templars are much easier to control than mages.  the whole being possessed by a demon thingie kinda kills it.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 13 mai 2011 - 03:00 .

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In the US ending for the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden, it's said that the Veil is thin in the Circle Tower, and this is why the ruler will order that the Tower be rebuilt somewhere else, with a statute of the Hero of Ferelden. However, it's difficult to pinpoint when the Veil became thin. There's no mention of the Veil being thin in the Primeval Thaig, but a Hunger Demon was able to possess one of the Profane.

Given the amount of raw lyrium and sponatenous Shades as well as profane, I'd be shocked if the veil wasn't thin in the Primeval Thaig.

-Polaris

Given the ammount of shades, I wouldn't be suprised if the veil was thing everywhere in and under the free marches lol

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mai 2011 - 04:27 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In the US ending for the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden, it's said that the Veil is thin in the Circle Tower, and this is why the ruler will order that the Tower be rebuilt somewhere else, with a statute of the Hero of Ferelden. However, it's difficult to pinpoint when the Veil became thin. There's no mention of the Veil being thin in the Primeval Thaig, but a Hunger Demon was able to possess one of the Profane.

Given the amount of raw lyrium and sponatenous Shades as well as profane, I'd be shocked if the veil wasn't thin in the Primeval Thaig.

-Polaris

Given the ammount of shades, I wouldn't be suprised if the veil was thing everywhere in and under the free marches lol

Actually it is (at least in the vicinity of Kirkwall).  See Enigma of Kirkwall Codex entries.  The City and Environs used to be a Tevinter Blood shrine and the entire location is basically a hellmouth.

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

However given that such systems are possible and given the Chantry circle system has failed and is never coming back, it behooves everyone to try to come up with a workable system of magic regulation rather than sweeping all proposals under the carpet by those that want a return to a failed system.

-Polaris

We don't know that.

Yes, the mages rebelled but the outcome of that rebellion is completely unknown at this point. Should the mages win it's certain that the Chantry system and it's control can be considered a failure. 
But, should the templars crush the rebellion it would show that the Chantry is strong enough to enforce it's laws even when faced with organized opposition. Furthermore, it may result in even more strict regulations and greater freedom for templars to deal with mages as they see fit.

[Augustei]

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

However given that such systems are possible and given the Chantry circle system has failed and is never coming back, it behooves everyone to try to come up with a workable system of magic regulation rather than sweeping all proposals under the carpet by those that want a return to a failed system.

-Polaris

We don't know that.

Yes, the mages rebelled but the outcome of that rebellion is completely unknown at this point. Should the mages win it's certain that the Chantry system and it's control can be considered a failure. 
But, should the templars crush the rebellion it would show that the Chantry is strong enough to enforce it's laws even when faced with organized opposition. Furthermore, it may result in even more strict regulations and greater freedom for templars to deal with mages as they see fit.

It may result in the total iradication of all mages everywhere, Which should be a choice cause hey.. Its fun to be an A'hole sometimes. lol

But yeah Templar Victory is far from being ruled out as of yet...Unless

Templar Victory Muhahahaha!!!

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 mai 2011 - 12:53 .

[Xilizhra]

I seriously doubt the templars will win. They've left the Chantry, meaning they have no civilian support network and the Chantry has no army.

[Augustei]

Xilizhra wrote...

I seriously doubt the templars will win. They've left the Chantry, meaning they have no civilian support network and the Chantry has no army.

No civilian support network? Extremely unlikely. it will decline but not to the level of nothing. Just because they chantry doesn't support the Templars actions doesn't mean they have yet condemned them. Besides the common folk and various noble lords will most likely side with the templars seeing the mages as some sort of evil threat.

[Master Shiori]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I seriously doubt the templars will win. They've left the Chantry, meaning they have no civilian support network and the Chantry has no army.

No civilian support network? Extremely unlikely. it will decline but not to the level of nothing. Just because they chantry doesn't support the Templars actions doesn't mean they have yet condemned them. Besides the common folk and various noble lords will most likely side with the templars seeing the mages as some sort of evil threat.

Exactly.

Also, the Chantry didn't publicly condemn the templars for leaving. And common people fear magic. As long as there's a possibility that mages will resort to blood magic or summon demons to aid them against the templars, commoners will be more inclined to support the templars and see their cause as justified.

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I seriously doubt the templars will win. They've left the Chantry, meaning they have no civilian support network and the Chantry has no army.

No civilian support network? Extremely unlikely. it will decline but not to the level of nothing. Just because they chantry doesn't support the Templars actions doesn't mean they have yet condemned them. Besides the common folk and various noble lords will most likely side with the templars seeing the mages as some sort of evil threat.

Exactly.

Also, the Chantry didn't publicly condemn the templars for leaving. And common people fear magic. As long as there's a possibility that mages will resort to blood magic or summon demons to aid them against the templars, commoners will be more inclined to support the templars and see their cause as justified.

You don't know that.  We don't know what the Chantry did in response to the Templars leaving.  As for the rest, I would say that divorcing themselves from the Chantry makes the Templars very vunerable and thus very much able to lose the war since not only does their civilian support network vanish (and the Templars DID rely for the chantry for such) except for that which they can expropriate via force, but they also lose their lyrium contracts as well.  (Don't forget that detail).

Finally, nobles don't like armies that aren't sworn to them roaming their lands like bandits.  As long as the Tempalrs are part of the Chantry, they had to tolerate it.  Now that they are not, that's a very different proposition which is why I think the mages are going to get a lot of support from the various noble classes (not because the nobles love mages but because they like the idea of rogue armies in their lands, i.e. Templars, even less).

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

You don't know that.  We don't know what the Chantry did in response to the Templars leaving.  As for the rest, I would say that divorcing themselves from the Chantry makes the Templars very vunerable and thus very much able to lose the war since not only does their civilian support network vanish (and the Templars DID rely for the chantry for such) except for that which they can expropriate via force, but they also lose their lyrium contracts as well.  (Don't forget that detail).

Finally, nobles don't like armies that aren't sworn to them roaming their lands like bandits.  As long as the Tempalrs are part of the Chantry, they had to tolerate it.  Now that they are not, that's a very different proposition which is why I think the mages are going to get a lot of support from the various noble classes (not because the nobles love mages but because they like the idea of rogue armies in their lands, i.e. Templars, even less).

-Polaris

We agree on the lyrium part. 

As for the nobles, what do you think they prefer; rogue templars who hunt down potentialy dangerous individuals or mages who can summon demons and control your mind?

The nobles can handle the templars since these have no special abilities against normal soldiers. Mages, on the other hand, are much harder to subdue and this is the task that the templars are best equipt to handle.

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

As for the nobles, what do you think they prefer; rogue templars who hunt down potentialy dangerous individuals or mages who can summon demons and control your mind?

We are talking about nobles here, not uneducated peasents.  The nobles would know perfectly well that very few mages can actually summon demons and control minds.  Also mages are very small in number and tend not to do well (by themselves) in battlefield situtations.  Also given that mages would almost certainly be willing to negotiate with nobles to get extra needed backing while the Templars we've seen tend to be self-rightous at best, the rebel mages would likely be willing to discuss all these points with various members of the nobility (the Templars not so much).

Finally, a rogue army in their land is a real and dire threat that any noble with any sense understands and justifiably fears.  No noble worth his title will tolerate it.  If you can get a powerful ally that agrees to recognize your authority to help deal with it, you take it.  Nobles may be many thing, but for the most part they aren't idiots.

I think the mages are going to get significant noble support because they AREN'T a standing army and as such they DON"T present a dire military threat to the secular nobles and they ARE (most likely) far willing to negotiate than the Templars.

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

As for the nobles, what do you think they prefer; rogue templars who hunt down potentialy dangerous individuals or mages who can summon demons and control your mind?

We are talking about nobles here, not uneducated peasents.  The nobles would know perfectly well that very few mages can actually summon demons and control minds.  Also mages are very small in number and tend not to do well (by themselves) in battlefield situtations.  

Why would they know this? Are you assuming that all nobles are somehow trained in both magical theory and battlefield tactics? Very few mages know how blood magic works. How can you expect that the nobles be well-educated in the extent of blood mage power when even the mages themselves don't know? Where would the nobles even get  this knowledge? I certainly don't remember reading about nobles being educated at the circles.

Also given that mages would almost certainly be willing to negotiate with nobles to get extra needed backing while the Templars we've seen tend to be self-rightous at best, the rebel mages would likely be willing to discuss all these points with various members of the nobility (the Templars not so much).

Or the nobles could act like the nobles we've dealt with (the de Launcet family springs to mind), denying and trying to hide any connection to them that they might have in fear of losing social standing.

Finally, a rogue army in their land is a real and dire threat that any noble with any sense understands and justifiably fears.  No noble worth his title will tolerate it.  If you can get a powerful ally that agrees to recognize your authority to help deal with it, you take it.  Nobles may be many thing, but for the most part they aren't idiots.

I think the mages are going to get significant noble support because they AREN'T a standing army and as such they DON"T present a dire military threat to the secular nobles and they ARE (most likely) far willing to negotiate than the Templars.

-Polaris

Do you really think it's enough for them to forget a thousand years of tradition and established history? Are you seriously thinking that the nobles, over the course of three years, would ignore the prior millenium? Especially after the troubles with blood mages, demons and maleficarum during the preceding years that happened in Kirkwall?

[Ryzaki]

I don't see mages getting much civilian support.

And the second abominations and bloodmages start running rampant that's gonna decrease sharply. Most likely because those rampages will be ended by templars. Who the people will then owe a debt and want to keep around. 

The mages will have to prove themelves useful for the average civilian to allow the risk of having them. (This is assuming the war actually occurs and you get groups of templars attacking mages). I'm not talking about peaceful times. 

And there will be abominations. Plenty of mages we saw in life or death situations got abomination happy. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mai 2011 - 10:34 .

[LobselVith8]

I don't recall any abominations during the Battle of Denerim, or any reference to them when Brother Genitivi noted how the Circle of Magi was the greatest advantage against the Qunari armies and their advanced technology. The time we see many abominations is in a place where the Fade was purposely made weak (Band of Three).

If the choice is between freedom and subjugation, I imagine that more than a few mages are willing to die on their feet than live on their knees, regardless of what the civilian population thinks about them.

[Ryzaki]

The mages had backup from the templars and far more people than just themselves in those battles. Not to mention not many mages are recruited into the armies. Hell Gregoir only gives over 14 and scoffs when people ask for more.

And I don't doubt that. I just doubt the majority of civilians being behind them.

[LobselVith8]

We have no idea how many mages were actually recruited because the game mechanics differ from the cutscene. No, Greagoir only provided seven mages for Ostagar, and refused the King's request for more, and we saw how well that turned out when the darkspawn defeated the King's armies. The decision to aid The Warden came from First Enchanter Irving, because Greagoir had deferred the decision to him. Again, it doesn't tell us how many mages were actually sent when we have conflicting information.

I'm hoping Hawke's choice to choose between the templars and the mages actually matters down the line. I'd like to see Hawke finally be proactive for once.

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

We are talking about nobles here, not uneducated peasents.  The nobles would know perfectly well that very few mages can actually summon demons and control minds.

How would they know that?!

The only place you can learn about magic is in the Circle, and they educate mages, not general population. A noble would have no knowledge about how magic works.

IanPolaris wrote...



  Also given that mages would almost certainly be willing to negotiate with nobles to get extra needed backing while the Templars we've seen tend to be self-rightous at best, the rebel mages would likely be willing to discuss all these points with various members of the nobility (the Templars not so much).

Except non mages view magic as a stigma.

No noble would ever marry into a line with magic. No noble family would ever suffer the shame of publicly admiting they have anything to do with magic. 
Doing so could cost them their social status and influence.

That's the view which existed for over a thousand years. It won't suddenly go away just because of some mage rebellion.

IanPolaris wrote...



Finally, a rogue army in their land is a real and dire threat that any noble with any sense understands and justifiably fears.  No noble worth his title will tolerate it.  If you can get a powerful ally that agrees to recognize your authority to help deal with it, you take it.  Nobles may be many thing, but for the most part they aren't idiots

Those templars didn't suddenly appear in the noble's lands. They were the same men and women who guarded the Chantries and Circle Towers. They are the ones who protect the people from demons, abominations or maleficarum. Just because they broke away from the Chantry doesn't mean they're pillaging the countryside or burning towns and villages. They're here for the sole purpose of killing renegade mages. The same mages that your average peasant, craftsman, merchant and nobles FEARS.

 Why on earth would any noble side against people who protected him for centuries?! 

In Lothering, after the Bann took his army north and abandoned the village, it was the templars who stayed behind to keep order, who tried their best to protect the refugees from bandits and who allowed people to seek refuge in the Chantry. 

As Orsino himself said: "The other Circles will rally behind us, but we can expect no aid from anyone else".

Had Meredith not been such an idiot and made herself the ruler of Kirkwall, nobles wouldn't give a damn about what happens to the mages in the Gallows. And they still don't. The want proper control over their own city, not to fight and die in the name of some meaningless "mage freedom" they couldn't care less about.

Hell, after you slaughter every last mage in the Gallows, Kirkwall basicaly gets down on its knees and begs Hawke to become Viscount.
So much for "symphathy for the mages", eh?

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea how many mages were actually recruited because the game mechanics differ from the cutscene. No, Greagoir only provided seven mages for Ostagar, and refused the King's request for more, and we saw how well that turned out when the darkspawn defeated the King's armies. The decision to aid The Warden came from First Enchanter Irving, because Greagoir had deferred the decision to him. Again, it doesn't tell us how many mages were actually sent when we have conflicting information.

I'm hoping Hawke's choice to choose between the templars and the mages actually matters down the line. I'd like to see Hawke finally be proactive for once.

I'll need to check. 

*checking toolset* 

Apparenty it was "... many have already gone to Ostagar--Wynne, Uldred, and most of the senior mages! We've committed enough of our own to this war effort--" 

Hm...we'd need to know exactly how many senior mages were in the tower to begin with to even make a decent guess. 

edit: off topic. Goddamnit Alistair andLoghain's interactions are gold. Why tis couldn't have been in the final game I'll never know. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 12:28 .