123 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Why on earth would any noble side against people who protected him for centuries?!

Possibly because they're committing major sacrilege by splitting from the Chantry.

[Augustei]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why on earth would any noble side against people who protected him for centuries?!

Possibly because they're committing major sacrilege by splitting from the Chantry.

In some case scenarios this is all the more reason to support them. Orlesian Nobles who both want to be protected from the mages and dislike the level of power the chantry maintains can side with the the Templars to combat both. Majority of Orlais will side with the Templars and Orlais is the most powerful nation in thedas atm.

Nevarra, another power in thedas sees how the chantry gives Orlais strength The Orlesian empire's basis is in the chantry pretty much, Nevarra will side with the templars to both be protected from mages and weaken their enemies.

[Master Shiori]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why on earth would any noble side against people who protected him for centuries?!

Possibly because they're committing major sacrilege by splitting from the Chantry.

According to who?

As far as we know the Chantry never declared it a sacrilege.

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why on earth would any noble side against people who protected him for centuries?!

Possibly because they're committing major sacrilege by splitting from the Chantry.

According to who?

As far as we know the Chantry never declared it a sacrilege.

True but we don't know they didn't either.  In any case they can no longer hide behind the Chantry and that makes a big difference.  A nobleman might not be willing to defy the Chantry but defying a local group of self-righteous armored thugs with no Chantry support is something else again....

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Nevarra, another power in thedas sees how the chantry gives Orlais strength The Orlesian empire's basis is in the chantry pretty much, Nevarra will side with the templars to both be protected from mages and weaken their enemies.

I agree about Orlais, but the fact that outside of Orlais, the Chantry is often viewed as Orlesian stooges (and that view is rampant in both Nevarra and Fereldan and for very good reason), I would think the Nevarran nobles would strongly tend to support the mages....or more accurately support anyone opposed to Orlais and the Chantry.

In fact I can easily see Nevarran nobles seeing this as a golden opportunity to wreck some havok in Orlais now that the Chantry has splintered.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 14 mai 2011 - 09:16 .

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Nevarra, another power in thedas sees how the chantry gives Orlais strength The Orlesian empire's basis is in the chantry pretty much, Nevarra will side with the templars to both be protected from mages and weaken their enemies.

I agree about Orlais, but the fact that outside of Orlais, the Chantry is often viewed as Orlesian stooges (and that view is rampant in both Nevarra and Fereldan and for very good reason), I would think the Nevarran nobles would strongly tend to support the mages....or more accurately support anyone opposed to Orlais and the Chantry.

In fact I can easily see Nevarran nobles seeing this as a golden opportunity to wreck some havok in Orlais now that the Chantry has splintered.

-Polaris

The Ferelden Monarcy and a man either dead or in disfavor (Loghain) hold such a view, Not all of Fereldens nobles do however, a fair few of the noble families are Orlesian or Orlesian desendents who were allowed to keep their titles after the war due to either helping the rebellion, not taking sides or simply to avoid a power vaccume. And Pretty much all nobles whether of Orlesian decent or Pure Ferelden are Andrastian and uphold views relating to such, such as the danger of mages. So they wont trust the mages like Alistair

The Ferelden Monarchies Strength stems from the freeholders and nobles, so Ferelden isn't pro-mage unless most of the noble families suddenly die in some freak accident and the monarch moves in to assume control of their armies.

In regards to Nevarra, you could be right, you could be wrong. They might use them but its highly unlikely they will trust them or want to help them, if they sided with the mages it would be for their own goals

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 14 mai 2011 - 10:59 .

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why on earth would any noble side against people who protected him for centuries?!

Possibly because they're committing major sacrilege by splitting from the Chantry.

According to who?

As far as we know the Chantry never declared it a sacrilege.

True but we don't know they didn't either.  In any case they can no longer hide behind the Chantry and that makes a big difference.  A nobleman might not be willing to defy the Chantry but defying a local group of self-righteous armored thugs with no Chantry support is something else again....

-Polaris

How does hunting down potentialy dangerous people that everyone fears equal being a thug?

The templars aren't out to carve their own kingdom, pillage the countryside or burn down towns and villages. They're doing what they've always done: protect common people from the dangers of magic.

Why would anyone in a society that views magic as dangerous and being a mage as a stigma suddenly forget a fear that has existed for over a thousand years and turn against those who protected them from it?

I get that you have a different view of mages and magic which is a result of real world logic, morality and belief that everyone deserves to be free and control the direction of their lives. But these things don't apply to a fictional world like Thedas. 

Modifié par Master Shiori, 14 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...
The templars aren't out to carve their own kingdom, pillage the countryside or burn down towns and villages. They're doing what they've always done: protect common people from the dangers of magic.

I would not be surprised if in their quest to help the common people, they conclude that that they need political power to do so, exactly like they did in Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'll need to check.

No need to check the toolset, you need to speak to Duncan, because he's the one who explains only seven mages were sent to Ostagar. Duncan wanted a mage for each group because of how useful magic is against darkspawn, but the King's request was turned down.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I'll need to check.

No need to check the toolset, you need to speak to Duncan, because he's the one who explains only seven mages were sent to Ostagar. Duncan wanted a mage for each group because of how useful magic is against darkspawn, but the King's request was turned down.

Now that we have the treaties, in future if we want every mage to come help fight the darkspawn and The Knight Commander says no We can flip em off and say their opinion does't matter and to give us our damn mages right?

Cause something tells me that the only reason we had mages with us in the battle of denerim is because there was only like.. 12 left... Well that and the **** had hit the fan

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 14 mai 2011 - 05:16 .

[Augustei]

Wouldn't want to defy the chantry. They might send their templ...oh wait. Well they still have the seekers of truth, that order that pretty much nobody has heard about or would believe exist. So the only thing that the nobles would really worry about chantry wise would be a bunch of bickering old women.

Non chantry wise, they would be worried about mages and thats where their alliance with the Templars comes into play. Even if the chantry condemned the templars actions I'm not sure many would care as much as they would about the mages that could be roaming their lands

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 14 mai 2011 - 05:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Wouldn't want to defy the chantry. They might send their templ...oh wait. Well they still have the seekers of truth, that order that pretty much nobody has heard about or would believe exist. So the only thing that the nobles would really worry about chantry wise would be a bunch of bickering old women.

Seeing how the Seekers did nothing when they should have and that they honestly believe that the person who failed to prevent two conflicts in the span of three years is for some reason capable of preventing an even larger war, then I doubt the Seekers are that threatening. 

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Ferelden Monarcy and a man either dead or in disfavor (Loghain) hold such a view, Not all of Fereldens nobles do however, a fair few of the noble families are Orlesian or Orlesian desendents who were allowed to keep their titles after the war due to either helping the rebellion, not taking sides or simply to avoid a power vaccume. And Pretty much all nobles whether of Orlesian decent or Pure Ferelden are Andrastian and uphold views relating to such, such as the danger of mages. So they wont trust the mages like Alistair

The Ferelden Monarchies Strength stems from the freeholders and nobles, so Ferelden isn't pro-mage unless most of the noble families suddenly die in some freak accident and the monarch moves in to assume control of their armies.

King Alistair.  Also while Fereldans believe in the maker well enough, King Alistair is intensely popular (and also holds such views), and most Fereldans hold the CHANTRY (at least the higher ranking members of the Chantry) in utter contempt associating them with a brutal Orlesian occupation that most Fereldans remember vividly.  If King Alistair declares himself "Defender of the Faith" and kicks out the DIvine from Fereldan and asks the mages to help defend the kingdom, you can be absolutely certain that virtually all the nobility will go along with it...not because there is a sudden outbreak of mage-love in Fereldan but because the Chanty and the Templars will be associated with hated Orlais.

Ifs a virtual certainty (and the game gives many clues) that Feredan will be a pro-mage Haven in the upcoming war.

In regards to Nevarra, you could be right, you could be wrong. They might use them but its highly unlikely they will trust them or want to help them, if they sided with the mages it would be for their own goals

..and the mages would be helping and swearing fealty to the Nevvarran nobles for their own goals.  That's how politics works and I think both sides are savvy enough to understand this.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Wouldn't want to defy the chantry. They might send their templ...oh wait. Well they still have the seekers of truth, that order that pretty much nobody has heard about or would believe exist. So the only thing that the nobles would really worry about chantry wise would be a bunch of bickering old women.

Non chantry wise, they would be worried about mages and thats where their alliance with the Templars comes into play. Even if the chantry condemned the templars actions I'm not sure many would care as much as they would about the mages that could be roaming their lands

Frankly outside their towers, the mages present a virtually negligible miltitary threat.  They simply don't have the numbers or logistics to take and hold vast tracts of land, nor have any mages other than the most insane pro-Tevinter resolusionists ever expressed such a desire.  The Templars, however, not only have shown the can be such a military threat, but have shown they are willing to ditch and even kill secular nobles if that will suit their own aims.

No, given the choice, I'd say the nobles for the most part would be inclined by self-interest to favor the mages (except in places like Orlais).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

How does hunting down potentialy dangerous people that everyone fears equal being a thug?

The Viscounts of Kirkwall would like to have a word with you about that......

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

How does hunting down potentialy dangerous people that everyone fears equal being a thug?

The Viscounts of Kirkwall would like to have a word with you about that......

-Polaris

I bet he would, had his head still been attached to his body.

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

How does hunting down potentialy dangerous people that everyone fears equal being a thug?

The Viscounts of Kirkwall would like to have a word with you about that......

-Polaris

I bet he would, had his head still been attached to his body.

Kinda my point....or the rest of the Kirkwall nobility....or did I just imagine the Templars completely and illegally taking over the entire city for three years?

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

How does hunting down potentialy dangerous people that everyone fears equal being a thug?

The Viscounts of Kirkwall would like to have a word with you about that......

-Polaris

I bet he would, had his head still been attached to his body.

Kinda my point....or the rest of the Kirkwall nobility....or did I just imagine the Templars completely and illegally taking over the entire city for three years?

-Polaris

There is no point to what you're saying, unless you're making a claim that every Knight Commander in Thedas is a paranoid lunatic in possession of a corrupting lyrium idol.
That would be like me claiming every mage is a terrorist waiting for a chance to blow up a Chantry.

And after having this argument with you across a dozen pages, I think I've said everything I wanted on this subject.  It's obvious by now that neither one  of us will change his mind so futher discussion serves no purpose. 

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

There is no point to what you're saying, unless you're making a claim that every Knight Commander in Thedas is a paranoid lunatic in possession of a corrupting lyrium idol.
That would be like me claiming every mage is a terrorist waiting for a chance to blow up a Chantry.

Point. Missing it.  To a nobleman (with any sense in his or her head) any military force in her or her lands that isn't sworn to them is a threat.  That's especially true of a well equipped group of thugs that just renounced what few vows they had.  Whether the Templar's goals are noble or ignoble (and we'll never agree on this point), doesn't matter.  They are a threat.

-Polaris

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Wouldn't want to defy the chantry. They might send their templ...oh wait. Well they still have the seekers of truth, that order that pretty much nobody has heard about or would believe exist. So the only thing that the nobles would really worry about chantry wise would be a bunch of bickering old women.

Non chantry wise, they would be worried about mages and thats where their alliance with the Templars comes into play. Even if the chantry condemned the templars actions I'm not sure many would care as much as they would about the mages that could be roaming their lands

Frankly outside their towers, the mages present a virtually negligible miltitary threat.  They simply don't have the numbers or logistics to take and hold vast tracts of land, nor have any mages other than the most insane pro-Tevinter resolusionists ever expressed such a desire.  The Templars, however, not only have shown the can be such a military threat, but have shown they are willing to ditch and even kill secular nobles if that will suit their own aims.

No, given the choice, I'd say the nobles for the most part would be inclined by self-interest to favor the mages (except in places like Orlais).

-Polaris

Negligible military threat? We're talking about the same people who ended the recent exalted marches and without them they could still be going on or thedas have lost.. Its extremely unlikely that any of the nobles will see the people the chantrys taught them can turn into an abomination and wipe out entire cities, apparently witnessed before as well its very very highly unlikely any of the nobles will think of them as a negligible threat.

As far as the nobles are concerned they dont need the numbers, which is true. dispite the gameplay mechanics making it seem otherwise, one mage could take on ten or more non-templars. Having mages running around is a high millitary threat. Also even though the chantry might condemn the templars (unknown as of yet) Its already pretty certain they will condemn supporting mages as we see the seekers, the order that answers to the divine are hunting the mages as varric says while Cassandra doesn't correct him another reason the nobles wont support the mages.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Ferelden Monarcy and a man either dead or in disfavor (Loghain) hold such a view, Not all of Fereldens nobles do however, a fair few of the noble families are Orlesian or Orlesian desendents who were allowed to keep their titles after the war due to either helping the rebellion, not taking sides or simply to avoid a power vaccume. And Pretty much all nobles whether of Orlesian decent or Pure Ferelden are Andrastian and uphold views relating to such, such as the danger of mages. So they wont trust the mages like Alistair

The Ferelden Monarchies Strength stems from the freeholders and nobles, so Ferelden isn't pro-mage unless most of the noble families suddenly die in some freak accident and the monarch moves in to assume control of their armies.

King Alistair.  Also while Fereldans believe in the maker well enough, King Alistair is intensely popular (and also holds such views), and most Fereldans hold the CHANTRY (at least the higher ranking members of the Chantry) in utter contempt associating them with a brutal Orlesian occupation that most Fereldans remember vividly.  If King Alistair declares himself "Defender of the Faith" and kicks out the DIvine from Fereldan and asks the mages to help defend the kingdom, you can be absolutely certain that virtually all the nobility will go along with it...not because there is a sudden outbreak of mage-love in Fereldan but because the Chanty and the Templars will be associated with hated Orlais.

Ifs a virtual certainty (and the game gives many clues) that Feredan will be a pro-mage Haven in the upcoming war.

In regards to Nevarra, you could be right, you could be wrong. They might use them but its highly unlikely they will trust them or want to help them, if they sided with the mages it would be for their own goals

..and the mages would be helping and swearing fealty to the Nevvarran nobles for their own goals.  That's how politics works and I think both sides are savvy enough to understand this.

-Polaris

King Alistair isn't intesely popular if ruling alone; "Some in Ferelden claim that the
Theirin line ended with the death of King Cailan and that the existence
of an unknown bastard was a lie imposed upon the people to overthrow
Queen Anora. As such, Alistair's rule has been plagued with trouble…
both within his own lands as well as with neighboring Orlais"

If Alistair rules alongside anora nothing is mentioned of his popularity, but even if he is popular the bannorn aren't going to change their views on everything for him.

We dont know the peoples views on the chantrys relation to the Orlesian occupation, we only know of Maric's and Loghains everything else is an assumption.

The people do have respect for the templar order as well, and its shown through certain conversations that mages are not trusted and the people see them as dangerous and in the new situation most likely also as a threat.

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Negligible military threat? We're talking about the same people who ended the recent exalted marches and without them they could still be going on or thedas have lost.. Its extremely unlikely that any of the nobles will see the people the chantrys taught them can turn into an abomination and wipe out entire cities, apparently witnessed before as well its very very highly unlikely any of the nobles will think of them as a negligible threat.

As far as the nobles are concerned they dont need the numbers, which is true. dispite the gameplay mechanics making it seem otherwise, one mage could take on ten or more non-templars. Having mages running around is a high millitary threat. Also even though the chantry might condemn the templars (unknown as of yet) Its already pretty certain they will condemn supporting mages as we see the seekers, the order that answers to the divine are hunting the mages as varric says while Cassandra doesn't correct him another reason the nobles wont support the mages.

Typical board gamer attitude...all about the DPS and never a thought about C3I.  *sigh*

Even IF mages didn't need non-magical support to permit them to cast their battlemagic (and we both know they do both in game play and game lore), mages don't have the NUMBERS and RESOURCES to be a true military threat.

Sure the mages turned around the new Exalted Marches.  They did so by using potent batlemagic behind a WALL of Templar and Mundane Steel.  Mages are terrific for defending fortifications and other places where numbers matter less, but for taking and OCCUPYING territory, you need numbers and "boots on the ground" and the mages don't have them...so no by themselves, the mages are NOT a military threat.

....now trying to take out prepared and well trained battlemages in a prepared position is another issue entirely....

-Polaris

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Negligible military threat? We're talking about the same people who ended the recent exalted marches and without them they could still be going on or thedas have lost.. Its extremely unlikely that any of the nobles will see the people the chantrys taught them can turn into an abomination and wipe out entire cities, apparently witnessed before as well its very very highly unlikely any of the nobles will think of them as a negligible threat.

As far as the nobles are concerned they dont need the numbers, which is true. dispite the gameplay mechanics making it seem otherwise, one mage could take on ten or more non-templars. Having mages running around is a high millitary threat. Also even though the chantry might condemn the templars (unknown as of yet) Its already pretty certain they will condemn supporting mages as we see the seekers, the order that answers to the divine are hunting the mages as varric says while Cassandra doesn't correct him another reason the nobles wont support the mages.

Typical board gamer attitude...all about the DPS and never a thought about C3I.  *sigh*

Even IF mages didn't need non-magical support to permit them to cast their battlemagic (and we both know they do both in game play and game lore), mages don't have the NUMBERS and RESOURCES to be a true military threat.

Sure the mages turned around the new Exalted Marches.  They did so by using potent batlemagic behind a WALL of Templar and Mundane Steel.  Mages are terrific for defending fortifications and other places where numbers matter less, but for taking and OCCUPYING territory, you need numbers and "boots on the ground" and the mages don't have them...so no by themselves, the mages are NOT a military threat.

....now trying to take out prepared and well trained battlemages in a prepared position is another issue entirely....

-Polaris

unless they get possessed by a demon and rampage across the countryside destroying everything in their path.. Something that would be on the commoners and nobles minds - Also the Templars numbers are not so numerous. Kirkwall is mean't to be their second to third biggest base of operations and yet they are spread thin as mentioned. They failed to hold the city from the Qunari and they failed to hold the city against the mages.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 14 mai 2011 - 08:17 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

unless they get possessed by a demon and rampage across the countryside destroying everything in their path.. Something that would be on the commoners and nobles minds - Also the Templars numbers are not so numerous. Kirkwall is mean't to be their second to third biggest base of operations and yet they are spread thin as mentioned. They failed to hold the city from the Qunari and they failed to hold the city against the mages.

A possessed abomination isn't a military threat either.  It's basically a natural disaster...but funny how few reports of abomintions we get when mages actually DO go to war....but I'm digressing.  The issue is that MAGES aren't a real military threat to anyone at least without mundane troops to back them up, and pretty much any noble with a military education (which will be almost all of them) knows it.

As for Templar numbers, they are enough to make nations hesitant to buck the chantry because of exalted marches and given that a typical noble might have a couple of hundred trained troops at best at their beckon call, I'd say the Templars are a real military threat to them (as armed thugs if nothing else).  Mages, however, would let nobles get far more from their limited manpower......

As for Kirkwall, the Arishok did a suprise blitzkrieg style attack that had been planned for years.  There is no evidence that the Qunari even fought the Templars in a meaningful way, but instead made a beeline to seize Hightown and the Palace.  Given the numbers alone, the Qunari were doomed before they started (a point not lost on the Arishock).  The only question was how many would die first.  We know there is at least a regiment if not a full division (that's thousands of templars) in and around Kirkwall.

-Polaris