941 réponses à ce sujet

[TheMadCat]

Dnarris wrote...

I can't argue with your logic as far as other non-absolute factors that must be taken into account when considering an entertainment product or service.

However, I find it difficult to deal with unknowns when determining the value of a product unless you purchase it and determine it for yoursef.  By then the consideration of value is personally moot. Fiscially, I did at least want to make it known that it is not a monetarilly sound purchase, as I don't believe everyone always takes such spending in consideration.

I do, however, have an idea that players will eventually be paying more for content then they would have waiting for an expansion. Though, I by no means am claim that as an inevitability.

Well in reality if we compare the time in Dragon Age against other single player oriented games, a reasonable playthrough of Dragon Age can last between 60-80 hours while the average for a SP game is what, 30 at most? If we go purely off of time vs. cost and compare it to the average numbers in the same market, newly released SP based games, I could argue that you vastly underpaid for Dragon Age and the DLC is simply bringing it up to a more equal level, of course the DLC being optional allows you to make the decision weather you bring your copy up to a more equal level or not rather then giving you what you got.

As for the bugs, I agree they should be fixed but they haven't exactly pumped out DLC after DLC after DLC as one poster said. This will be the first DLC post release, I'd assume patch crews and the DLC team are seperate entities and have nothing to do with ones progress over the other so while I'd like to see a real patch out to fix some of these glaring bugs I don't think it's quite fair to hold it against the DLC.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:58 .

[PendragonV]

New DLC, I am only 1 voice here but many thoughts are the same. We have mods that could probably give almost the same thing. But given that bioware have given US probably the greatest rpg fantasy game is little short and sharp to say that it's not worth the penny. I love this game, I have left all others to succeed in this campaign. Maybe bioware should look at creating content with suggestions to keep the miserable 'ones' happier. This happens to be the fastest dlc content available since I purchased it and I don't believe bioware is going to let down any gamers down novice or advanced. Think about it, a returning quest - may not suit vetrans but adds another dimension to say the least and the novice player a more challenging mission to complete.

So if you have an opinion about dlc, please refrain from putting a damper on us and save your breath for yourself.

enough said.

[Dnarris]

TheMadCat wrote...

Well in reality if we compare the time in Dragon Age against other single player oriented games, a reasonable playthrough of Dragon Age can last between 60-80 hours while the average for a SP game is what, 30 at most? If we go purely off of time vs. cost and compare it to the average numbers in the same market, newly released SP based games, I could argue that you vastly underpaid for Dragon Age and the DLC is simply bringing it up to a more equal level, of course the DLC being optional allows you to make the decision weather you bring your copy up to a more equal level or not rather then giving you what you got.

As for the bugs, I agree they should be fixed but they haven't exactly pumped out DLC after DLC after DLC as one poster said. This will be the first DLC post release, I'd assume patch crews and the DLC team are seperate entities and have nothing to do with ones progress over the other so while I'd like to see a real patch out to fix some of these glaring bugs I don't think it's quite fair to hold it against the DLC.

I gave you your kudos on a well thought out argument in your last post.

However, I'm wanton to make assumptions that Dragon Age is by some means surpassing the standards in gaming enterainment with its duration. I'd say that on average the length of the game is great and it does surpass many genres of games in gameplay duration, however, I find it pretty standard in the RPG genre to get 60+ hours of gameplay.

And they are/were similarly priced to Dragon Age.

[The Demonologist]

Nothing wrong with this idea, I rather like it. I just wish they were doing something.. *sigh.* Cooler.

[Bryzon]

I welcome more content like this. These small "mini" missions are a great distraction and a nice way to peak more interest in the story again, for me at least. Hopefully it'll be here by finals week!

[supakillaii]

AVENGE FOR DUNCAN!!
hear me roar, for I am Arcane Magi.
I hope we can get Duncan's Swords. His armor's too cool though, he deserves to keep it.
Also hoping we can bury him in Highever.

Modifié par supakillaii, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:18 .

[VanDraegon]

I would be very curious to find out how much Bioware invested in hardware and all the software structuring, framework, doodad thingamabobs that they needed for this game and its setting. Gonna take a while to make that back im sure...

[TheMadCat]

Dnarris wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Well in reality if we compare the time in Dragon Age against other single player oriented games, a reasonable playthrough of Dragon Age can last between 60-80 hours while the average for a SP game is what, 30 at most? If we go purely off of time vs. cost and compare it to the average numbers in the same market, newly released SP based games, I could argue that you vastly underpaid for Dragon Age and the DLC is simply bringing it up to a more equal level, of course the DLC being optional allows you to make the decision weather you bring your copy up to a more equal level or not rather then giving you what you got.

As for the bugs, I agree they should be fixed but they haven't exactly pumped out DLC after DLC after DLC as one poster said. This will be the first DLC post release, I'd assume patch crews and the DLC team are seperate entities and have nothing to do with ones progress over the other so while I'd like to see a real patch out to fix some of these glaring bugs I don't think it's quite fair to hold it against the DLC.

I gave you your kudos on a well thought out argument in your last post.

However, I'm wanton to make assumptions that Dragon Age is by some means surpassing the standards in gaming enterainment with its duration. I'd say that on average the length of the game is great and it does surpass many genres of games in gameplay duration, however, I find it pretty standard in the RPG genre to get 60+ hours of gameplay.

And they are/were similarly priced to Dragon Age.

Hehe, alright good points and I'll call it a night. I just like to try and get the last work in sometimes, old habbit.

[ThomasRipley]

I've nothing against DLCs, I will probably buy this one and all the others(what better way to show that there is a market for pc rpgs? And to support Bioware(as long as they also plan to release true expansions too)?) but I got one complaint.



I noticed in the DLC window where I downloaded the dlcs that at the bottom is written "Points balance" and I've got to say I'm sick of that point system, wherever it's to force people to buy points by pack or to put a fog screen not really knowing how much what you buy cost, I hate it(and I think we can clearly point the finger at EA for that, I won't tell you which finger you can guess for yourself).



There I had to say it .

[Rynk]

Thank you! I was hoping another add on would come out before the end of the year! You keep cranking them out and I'll keep enjoying them, so excited for the future of this game.

[Dnarris]

TheMadCat wrote...

Hehe, alright good points and I'll call it a night. I just like to try and get the last work in sometimes, old habbit.

Good night.

And I actually thank you and Wild Maiden for well constructed and thoughtful posts. It actually made for an excellent discussion with poignant points to consider.

If I end up actually purchasing any DLC in the future, I can guarantee that it will be after long consideration and after letting many many many poor sheep go before me.

[ununretro]

packardbell wrote...

Will the companions be voiced, does anyone know?

Alistairs reaction should be interesting.

I've wondered about this. New DLC is supposed to come out for some time, but will party members actually have speaking roles in some of them (requiring the original voice actors to come back every once in a while)? Obviously I don't know what sort of arrangement EA/Bioware has with them but that sure would be cool.

Apologies if this has already been asked/answered somewhere else.

[ruyanve]

The time and energy spent by certain ppl to have a discussion about the price of a DLC could have been used to actually earn 5 bucks, buy the DLC and dont give a f. (or start a mod and give it away for free)



If you call me a sheep because I spend 5 $ for a DLC, I call you a cheap whiner because you write on the internets about it.



There are people in this world who pay good money to have someone shove veggies up their rear end. Try to find the logic in that.

[bwdevel]

DLC should have the same cost:value ratio. If the game has 30 hours of content at 40 USD (just saying), that's $1.33/hour. None of the content so far has been above an hour. The value simply isn't there in the DLC. Just because it's only $5 doesn't mean it's not a rip-off...



Now, the whole "they shouldn't be releasing DLC while there are still bugs in the game" argument is broken. The content teams who make DLC are not the same guys who fix bugs. These efforts can occur inin tandem. That being said, do you guys honestly believe that the DLC we've seen so far and will see over the next couple of months is new content? This stuff was developed months ago, which should feed the DLC hate.



So far the DLC is nothing more than "phat lewtz" with a shallow gameplay wrapper. So seems to me that the DLC is targeting the same people who would buy gold in MMO's.

[Neil Decurio]

Dnarris wrote...

I'll be very generous and say that Warden's Keep and Stone prisoner provide 10 hours of gameplay. Through two play throughs you get 20 hours of gameplay. With that comparison those two DLC for $22 would provide you with 17% of the retail box content (Rounded up from 16.6%), but costs 44% of the retail box price.

Can you please stop adding The Stone Prisoner DLC into your calculations? You talk about fairness and value, but you and whoever else buys this game retail should be getting this for FREE. I know I did, didn't you? I consider the whole fact that TSP is a DLC, was a way for BioWare/EA to introduce the DLC system to everyone. TWK I got for free since I as a DD buyer, and thus do not get any material goods like a map and a tin box, etc. - so for me, that was a way to weigh up that someone that bought the CE boxed version would get materialistic goods, while I get some extra electronic goodies, that the rest can optionally buy if they want it. Since TWK isn't for everyone, while TSP is (unless you buy it used or are a filthy pirate)--it is in my opinion a great way to try introduce quest content to everyone and how it works (Anyone remember how some people fired up under "a NPC selling DLC"? Did it turn out to be handled that way at all?). Blood Dragon Armor was a way to introduce how you can get equipment through DLC and well, also a gimmick thing to hype up ME2 (wich they cover more on their @dragonage Twitter page than DA itself at times..).

* Every new retail box of DA:O contains a promotional code on a promotional code card which when redeemed provides a free download of The Stone Prisoner. Digital purchases of DA:O will have the code emailed.

Regardless though, if you mean that for $22 I can get 20 hours of gameplay, that is far more than I usually get in most single-player games these days. I loved Batman: Arkham Asylum, but I was done with absolutely everything within 13 hours spent. All achievements, all riddles, 100% Completed. TWK, I would say should potentially give someone 1-3 hours of gameplay, two new abilities, a set of equipment, a blood magic robe, party storage (I agree with statements that this could have been in the main camp instead (but also with 'counter-arguments' that I haven't really experienced having much of a inventory problem with125 slots and kitting out my companions)), a very nice 1H or 2H and extra story and a new area to visit. I find the value of $7 to be fair for that. TSP, adds tons of content, depending on how you play with your companions. If you bring Shale along, you get tons of voiced content, you do get a extra quest as well. There's some decent items to get too. Overall, the value of FREE is well worth what you get in return. In all honesty, I hardly see it as a DLC, but rather as what I wrote above, a way to introduce DLC for everyone.

Anyways, stop saying $22. You should not need to pay $15 for TSP unless you didn't buy it full-price retail. And since you use that price to compare it with, I can only assume you got it for free, like most rest of us. You can complain about $7 providing you with 1-3 hours, a couple quests, some interesting story, decent equipment and a new location together with a party storage and some vendors. (Plus a gift you can steal, nearly forgot that.. try stealing from the dog as a hint.)

And I don't believe anyone can already say that this DLC will only be 1 hour long and containing little of value. If I have missed some huge detailed written post about it from the devs that says what we get for the reasonable and low price of $5, please point me too it. Even so, I would also like to know that you have already played through it yourself before you can actually say something substantial about it. I can't say it will be great, but I can say that I am excited that they have already announced a new DLC addition. If it continues with monthly DLC downloads, I will be personally very happy with that. I prefer that over feeling like I am grinding a MMO and paying subscription fees there (even though I will keep doing that too ).

bwdevel wrote...

DLC should have the same cost:value ratio. If the game has 30 hours of content at 40 USD (just saying), that's $1.33/hour. None of the content so far has been above an hour. The value simply isn't there in the DLC. Just because it's only $5 doesn't mean it's not a rip-off...

So far the DLC is nothing more than "phat lewtz" with a shallow gameplay wrapper. So seems to me that the DLC is targeting the same people who would buy gold in MMO's.

I don't know what DLC you played, but if you bring Shale along with your group, you get far more than a few hours worth of content. There's a ton of dialogue that Shale has in the various areas in the game, the original quest, an additional twist at a certain plot choice and yet another quest after that twist. Basically I could say since I got Shale as one of the first things after getting access to the world map, that TSP gave me near 50 hours worth of content. I found the story to be interesting enough as well. TWK gave me plenty of story regarding earlier Grey Wardens. The loot was nice, but I enjoyed the whole exploration and story the most. I am fairly sure I clocked in around 3hrs when I did it since I also did the side-quests from the Keep and read up on all the lore. If I count that I also did this early, right after Shale, and have taken use of the extra abilities and the loot since early on, I could in a sense say it has benefitted me for well over 80 hours. I didn't see it as fancy wrappers around loot. I saw it as enjoyable entertainment, with extra story and lore to build under the DA world. I could go as far as to say you seem more like the loot *bleep* who would buy gold in MMO's and don't care about reading lore and story, it goes both ways. The DLC might not have been your fancy, but it sure was mine, and I felt I got content for the value. (I got it for 'free' since I bought the Digital Deluxe, but would gladly have paid for it.)

Modifié par Neil Decurio, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[Dnarris]

bwdevel wrote...

DLC should have the same cost:value ratio. If the game has 30 hours of content at 40 USD (just saying), that's $1.33/hour. None of the content so far has been above an hour. The value simply isn't there in the DLC. Just because it's only $5 doesn't mean it's not a rip-off...

Now, the whole "they shouldn't be releasing DLC while there are still bugs in the game" argument is broken. The content teams who make DLC are not the same guys who fix bugs. These efforts can occur inin tandem. That being said, do you guys honestly believe that the DLC we've seen so far and will see over the next couple of months is new content? This stuff was developed months ago, which should feed the DLC hate.

So far the DLC is nothing more than "phat lewtz" with a shallow gameplay wrapper. So seems to me that the DLC is targeting the same people who would buy gold in MMO's.

I agree with most of that statement in essence.

I won't attempt to label anyone in terms of their motivations for making their purchases, however.

Though, I am of the same mind that there is nothing wrong with taking in consideration the value of your purchase, I suppose, in any given method before making the purchase. Such as taking into consideration some of the unknowns that Madcat brought up which are more personalized then generalized, I guess.

[Xeper84]

I hate DLC and i will not pay for it.



I can't understand how someone could defend it. Basically you are paying for a splitted add-on but you pay about 10 times more.

until now we had DLC released close to the price of a expansion:

Shale 14

Wardens keep 7

21 $

for that 21$ you get 4 hours of gaming. i would never buy a add-on that expansive.

If we would get content for our money it would be ok for me.



and to the boxed add-on:

A company has no need to release a boxed expansion if the consumers are buying it splitted for alot more money.

[Orrus_Brosca]

I'm looking forward to this DLC as long as it actually keeps me playing for a few hours instead of 40 mins like Warden's Keep. : / For my hard-earned duckets though I would rather new, potentially romance-minded companions who add some more depth to an already exceptional game.

[Dnarris]

Neil Decurio wrote...

Dnarris wrote...

I'll be very generous and say that Warden's Keep and Stone prisoner provide 10 hours of gameplay. Through two play throughs you get 20 hours of gameplay. With that comparison those two DLC for $22 would provide you with 17% of the retail box content (Rounded up from 16.6%), but costs 44% of the retail box price.

Can you please stop adding The Stone Prisoner DLC into your calculations? You talk about fairness and value, but you and whoever else buys this game retail should be getting this for FREE. I know I did, didn't you? I consider the whole fact that TSP is a DLC, was a way for BioWare/EA to introduce the DLC system to everyone. TWK I got for free since I as a DD buyer, and thus do not get any material goods like a map and a tin box, etc. - so for me, that was a way to weigh up that someone that bought the CE boxed version would get materialistic goods, while I get some extra electronic goodies, that the rest can optionally buy if they want it. Since TWK isn't for everyone, while TSP is (unless you buy it used or are a filthy pirate)--it is in my opinion a great way to try introduce quest content to everyone and how it works (Anyone remember how some people fired up under "a NPC selling DLC"? Did it turn out to be handled that way at all?). Blood Dragon Armor was a way to introduce how you can get equipment through DLC and well, also a gimmick thing to hype up ME2 (wich they cover more on their @dragonage Twitter page than DA itself at times..).

* Every new retail box of DA:O contains a promotional code on a promotional code card which when redeemed provides a free download of The Stone Prisoner. Digital purchases of DA:O will have the code emailed.

Regardless though, if you mean that for $22 I can get 20 hours of gameplay, that is far more than I usually get in most single-player games these days. I loved Batman: Arkham Asylum, but I was done with absolutely everything within 13 hours spent. All achievements, all riddles, 100% Completed. TWK, I would say should potentially give someone 1-3 hours of gameplay, two new abilities, a set of equipment, a blood magic robe, party storage (I agree with statements that this could have been in the main camp instead (but also with 'counter-arguments' that I haven't really experienced having much of a inventory problem with125 slots and kitting out my companions)), a very nice 1H or 2H and extra story and a new area to visit. I find the value of $7 to be fair for that. TSP, adds tons of content, depending on how you play with your companions. If you bring Shale along, you get tons of voiced content, you do get a extra quest as well. There's some decent items to get too. Overall, the value of FREE is well worth what you get in return. In all honesty, I hardly see it as a DLC, but rather as what I wrote above, a way to introduce DLC for everyone.

Anyways, stop saying $22. You should not need to pay $15 for TSP unless you didn't buy it full-price retail. And since you use that price to compare it with, I can only assume you got it for free, like most rest of us. You can complain about $7 providing you with 1-3 hours, a couple quests, some interesting story, decent equipment and a new location together with a party storage and some vendors. (Plus a gift you can steal, nearly forgot that.. try stealing from the dog as a hint.)

And I don't believe anyone can already say that this DLC will only be 1 hour long and containing little of value. If I have missed some huge detailed written post about it from the devs that says what we get for the reasonable and low price of $5, please point me too it. Even so, I would also like to know that you have already played through it yourself before you can actually say something substantial about it. I can't say it will be great, but I can say that I am excited that they have already announced a new DLC addition. If it continues with monthly DLC downloads, I will be personally very happy with that. I prefer that over feeling like I am grinding a MMO and paying subscription fees there (even though I will keep doing that too ).

Ok, so if I change the way I state my argument and say a new DLC that has yet to be named, but has been priced at $15 dollars (Since there is precedence for doing so in The Stone Prisoner) , would it really change any aspect of my argument?

I understand your point, but the naming of the DLC really isn't that important when the precedence for pricing is already set. I could as easily be discussing future DLCs based on their current pricing.  

Yes, I have played through the DLC as it came with my Deluxe edition of the game. I found that I personally didn't use the storage of Wardens Keep, found the added content short, and the most useful thing that came from it was uncessary loot. I found Stone Prisoner to be more fufilling if not for the fact that it actually gave you something that felt more intergrated with the rest of the game, Shale.

((And technically since we paided $65 for our deluxe version we already paid the $15 Shale's DLC cost. Unless you really really feel the extra garbage we got was that monetarilly valuable.))

Modifié par Dnarris, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:28 .

[ruyanve]

and to the boxed add-on:
A company has no need to release a boxed expansion if the consumers are buying it splitted for alot more money.

One word to prove you wrong: Oblivion

[Xeper84]

yea the only exception. but if you look @ fallout 3 they seem not to go back to a boxed add-on and that DLC of fallout 3 was also overpriced as hell.



DLC is the cheaper circulationmethod and people are willing to pay more for less when it's delivered as appetizers.

[supakillaii]

Let's see... I bought the game for 50 euros and have played it over 100 hours so far and enjoyed every second of it.

That's under 50 cent per hour of bliss.

Good trade, in my opinion.

And the ratio keeps getting better, for me at least. >:3

[Dnarris]

supakillaii wrote...

Let's see... I bought the game for 50 euros and have played it over 100 hours so far and enjoyed every second of it.
That's under 50 cent per hour of bliss.
Good trade, in my opinion.
And the ratio keeps getting better, for me at least. >:3

I think we've all agreed that the retail box was an excellent value.

Modifié par Dnarris, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[Xeper84]

I (as many others) love the game it's the best rpg for me since BG2 . I never said that i hate the game i just don't like what they want to sell to us. That DLC was not worth 1$ so far... if you compare it to their own game ^^ . I'am 46 hours in and not nearly through thats about 1 hour=1$ and the ratio gets better every minute BUT all that has nothing to do with the DLC thats the amazing game by Bioware.

[Neil Decurio]

Dnarris wrote...

Ok, so if I change the way I state my argument and say a new DLC that has yet to be named, but has been priced at $15 dollars (Since there is precedence for doing so in The Stone Prisoner) , would it really change any aspect of my argument?

I understand your point, but the naming of the DLC really isn't that important when the precedence for pricing is already set. I could as easily be discussing future DLCs based on their current pricing.  

Yes, I have played through the DLC as it came with my Deluxe edition of the game. I found that I personally didn't use the storage of Wardens Keep, found the added content short, and the most useful thing that came from it was uncessary loot. I found Stone Prisoner to be more fufilling if not for the fact that it actually gave you something that felt more intergrated with the rest of the game, Shale.

Since that unnamed $15 DLC could be 10 hour worth of content, add 3 companions and give us 10 quests, 8 new abilities and 3 sets of equipment and weapons, I would say it changes your argument. Speculating isn't anywhere near actual fact. What should be fact: You and everyone that buys the game retail, should get access to TSP for free. The $15 should be for people who would buy it used, thus not providing developer/publisher with any money. People who bought the DD, got TWK for free. We don't get materialistic collector items, and I haven't exactly seen a 'official' way to buy those goodies outside the box. Box users has the choice to pay a pretty minor fee of $7 for some extra background story, some new abilities, some loot (wich is underestimated in my eyes) and near an hour (or more) of entertainment (unless you hate it that is). The Party Storage is nice, but not like it was woohoo, this was a lifesaver--although I use it to storage extra gear sets I don't actually use, but like the look of.

As I recall, there were no actual pricing set on TSP before some of the more recent days. It used to just show a * if I don't remember it too wrong, and I think partly $15 is also to make some extra money from those that don't buy the game from a retailer and thus don't bring money to them as the developers/publishers. It could intentionally be overpriced due to that fact alone for all I (and perhaps you) know. And even so, considering all you gain from having Shale around (wich was indeed planned to be in the game and was cut out as a free DLC), through what I see as hilarious comments and extra ways for things to play out--it is well worth the pricetag they gave it. Even though you should be able to look away from that considering as long as someone buy the game new, they should get it for free. I am just tired of people (not just you who uses TSP in their examples) trying to make arguments with $15 and DLC when it is in fact free. I don't know how many times I need to write free for people to realise it didn't cost them a dime. Does it seem that unreasonable that they used Shale as means to introduce their DLC system?

I think you can feel free to argue that you don't like the value of $7 and $5 (hard to really argue that $5 is a bad value currently though, when as far as I know, nobody has actually played through RTO yet). And I think it's ok that people compare the DLC's worth up to the game it is released for, and I see where they come from in doing so. But I at least, also try to value it up a bit towards the entertainment value and time I spend in most other games (and also visual platforms like movies) as well. I haven't spent as many hours with a single-player game since Final Fantasy VII. DA:O blew me away with how much there was to do, and still is to do. So in that sense, yes, the DLC does in a way fall short to some extent, but it is still worth the pricing. At least that is my opinion. And I shall respect that you don't share that view. But at least be fair with your comparisons using 'facts' and statements of fairness, with what you have at your hand. I reacted to your usage of $22 including TSP when the price is not really an issue at all, as it is free--granted you pay full price for the game.

Modifié par Neil Decurio, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:25 .