305 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Perse Remember that scene with Cullen in the Gallows? I believe it was the Keran quest. There's an option that says "Hey! I'm a mage!". I pick that option, and what does she say? "I have friends who are mages". What?!?!?!

The paraphrase was poorly chosen indeed. But the answer makes sense. Otherwise one would get hauled to the Gallows & Boom, game over.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Persephone wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Not if you're playing as MageHawke. Immersion is thrown right out of the window.

I had no trouble playing mage Hawke. Sure, it would have been better if templars had reacted to Hawke being a mage but I don't know how BioWare could implement it without leaving warrior and rogue Hawke hanging. Maybe if warrior/rogue Hawke would have gotten some class specific quests while mage Hawke could have templars trying to hunt her/him down.  

Being a mage in Kirkwall worked just like being Ferelden's Most Wanted in DAO worked. Plot Armor, plain and simple.

That it did. I was just pointing out that, in my opinion, if mage Hawke would have gotten more attention from templars in any form but dialogue it would put mages above any other class unless warriors and rogues would have gotten special content too.

[Master Shiori]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...


And what does that have to do with him being ambitious?
[/quote]

Nothing, but him being or not being ambitious isn't what we're discussing here. 

We were discussing the fact that rivaling Sebastian doesn't need to result in you being an ass to him.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...



How do companions in Origins react the same way?

If anything, those in DA2 react the same way because all of them have to like Hawke.
[/quote]

You argue with them, they disapprove and leave or try to kill you. That's how. Professional disagreement is impossible. The whole system comes down to "deny I'm right and die" as the Arishok's likes to put it.

In DA2 you can argue about mages, templars or anything else really, but arguing about something doesn't mean that the companions will suddenly hate you because of difference in opinion. They'll respect you but won't neccesarily like you. 


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Not all leave due to a specific issue, let alone the same issue. But yea if you have an approval of -100, there is no reason for them to follow you, especially since most of them are not Ferelden. Why should they care?
[/quote]

Why did they care to join me in the first place? They didn't know me and couldn't know what my thoughts were on subjects like the Chantry, duty, Circle, etc.
 
Though I fail to see why we need to agree on these things at all in order to stop the Blight..


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...



As for specific choices, I call that consequences. The approval system had nothing to do with Wynne's reaction to the Urn. This is something that offends every fiber of her being period, it doesn't matter if she likes you or not.
[/quote]

It's not the Urn. I can understand why she and Leliana would attack me, though you have to wonder if killing the last Warden in Ferelden and doom the whole country to the darkspawn is worth preserving some relic.

The problem is that there is no reason for her to leave if we don't agree about the Circle or the Grey Wardens (a topic I'm more qulified to talk about then her anyway), especially if the disagreement was made in a respectful manner.
[quote]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...



How do they follow the same pattern of behaviour when they approve and dissaprove of different things, often opposite things?

The only same pattern they follow is gifts and I have said the gift system was bad.
[/quote]

Because they all leave due to disapproval. The DA:O system forces you to always agree with what others think, because doing so unlocks their quests, dialogue and bonuses. Disagreeing with them results in you being penalized.
Therefore, roleplying a character with the set morals or ideals is pointless unless you're willing to lose several of your companions at some point. And it doesn't even happen because you've been as ass to them or made their lives a living hell. You can be civil and reasonable about your issues with them yet the result will be the same.

If my Warden and Alistair disagree about my methods, he'll argue with me about it and openly dislike me as a person. But he doesn't follow me around because he wants to be friends. He's here for the sole purpose of stopping the Blight and thus will remain as long as that threat exists.
Leliana claims that the Maker told her to help me yet, if we disagree, she'll leave me regardless of what she claimed 5 minutes ago. That's what I have a problem with.
If Sten, Zevran, Oghren or Shale decide to leave, that's fine since they have no personal stake in this conflict anyway.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I really fail to understand how a character thinking he is right and not willing to admit he is childish is a flaw of the system. It's a character flaw and it's natural, but not that of the system.
For me, having everyone necessarily love Hawke is a system flaw.
[/quote]

Because that was true of every character in Origins and they didn't even have the same personality. And the fact that such a system was dropped after a single game and replaced with friendship/rivalry should be enough to prove that the devs weren't happy with it's performance.



[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...


There is no hatred. There is no outright disrespect. 
[/quote]

Having someone curse at you or threaten to break your neck doesn't come across as showing respect, which is what my Hawke go from both Anders and Fenris on their respective rivalry paths.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Sure, that's why I am saying, I'd rather have two meters. Which is not the case in DA2, because an action that increases respect can be very different from an action that increases liking.

[/quote]

Sure, I can agree with that. But DA2 at least had the concept of respect between characters, while DA:O only had like/dislike kind of relationship.
Doesn't mean that DA2 system is perfect, but I feel it's a definite improvement over how things were in Origins.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 15 mai 2011 - 03:30 .

[Persephone]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Perse Remember that scene with Cullen in the Gallows? I believe it was the Keran quest. There's an option that says "Hey! I'm a mage!". I pick that option, and what does she say? "I have friends who are mages". What?!?!?!

The paraphrase was poorly chosen indeed. But the answer makes sense. Otherwise one would get hauled to the Gallows & Boom, game over.

No. No it does not. You can disagree with me how much you want, but if I get an option to shoot someone in the head, yet all that happens is giving a guy a light nudge, I expect someone to get shot. Even if the one who performed the deed would get hauled off by the authorities. You know, consequences to your actions and all that.

This is a GAME. I could cite problems like that in every RPG, even the "Touch me not" perfect DAO. Would I have preferred it differently? Yes. I'd also like Alistair stop going on about being king when he isn't. 

Modifié par Persephone, 15 mai 2011 - 03:57 .

[MorrigansLove]

I feel DA:O was actually near perfection on the PC, in my opinion. Except for a few bugs, If feel it did everything right.

[Persephone]

MorrigansLove wrote...

I feel DA:O was actually near perfection on the PC, in my opinion. Except for a few bugs, If feel it did everything right.

DAO was and is an excellent game. However, it's unplayable to me without Mods. (I.E. the bug I cited above)

[Mezinger]

Persephone wrote...

Being a mage in Kirkwall worked just like being Ferelden's Most Wanted in DAO worked. Plot Armor, plain and simple.

I don't agree with this. In DA:O at least they sent an assassin after you, there were the soldiers in the bar in Lothering, the poorly armed mob in the same town, the Grey Wardens sympathizer trap, the knight who challenges you to a duel, both of these last in the capital, I think there were the odd thugs in Denerim as well who also tried to collect the bounty and a Spy in Redcliffe. I thought in DA:O they did a way better job reminding you that you had enemies in high places... by the time you get to Denerim, pre-landsmeet,  you clearly have sympathizers and people who don't believe or support Logain as well... but the fact that playing a Mage in DA:2 makes NO difference to the reactions around Kirkwall is atrocious!! and really shouldn't be compared to being the most wanted in DA:O IMO. 

Modifié par Mezinger, 15 mai 2011 - 04:36 .

[Persephone]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Perse Remember that scene with Cullen in the Gallows? I believe it was the Keran quest. There's an option that says "Hey! I'm a mage!". I pick that option, and what does she say? "I have friends who are mages". What?!?!?!

The paraphrase was poorly chosen indeed. But the answer makes sense. Otherwise one would get hauled to the Gallows & Boom, game over.

No. No it does not. You can disagree with me how much you want, but if I get an option to shoot someone in the head, yet all that happens is giving a guy a light nudge, I expect someone to get shot. Even if the one who performed the deed would get hauled off by the authorities. You know, consequences to your actions and all that.

This is a GAME. I could cite problems like that in every RPG, even the "Touch me not" perfect DAO. Would I have preferred it differently? Yes. I'd also like Alistair stop going on about being king when he isn't. 

I remember this quote by Mr. Laidlaw. "You'll be able to shape a story that takes place over a decade. Everyone of your choices has a consequence."

Is it wrong of me to have some sort of expecations after a bold statement like that? Unless I was *gasp* lied to!

Advertising talk is always exaggerated. Just look at Fable. Or at The Witcher. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...
You argue with them, they disapprove and leave or try to kill you. That's how. Professional disagreement is impossible. The whole system comes down to "deny I'm right and die" as the Arishok's likes to put it.

That's not true. They only leave if you manage to get a -100 approval, which is not possible if you disagree with them politely. Polite disagreement generate a very small disapproval and some would even admit later on to being wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mai 2011 - 05:06 .

[Elhanan]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Perse Remember that scene with Cullen in the Gallows? I believe it was the Keran quest. There's an option that says "Hey! I'm a mage!". I pick that option, and what does she say? "I have friends who are mages". What?!?!?!

The paraphrase was poorly chosen indeed. But the answer makes sense. Otherwise one would get hauled to the Gallows & Boom, game over.

No. No it does not. You can disagree with me how much you want, but if I get an option to shoot someone in the head, yet all that happens is giving a guy a light nudge, I expect someone to get shot. Even if the one who performed the deed would get hauled off by the authorities. You know, consequences to your actions and all that.

This is a GAME. I could cite problems like that in every RPG, even the "Touch me not" perfect DAO. Would I have preferred it differently? Yes. I'd also like Alistair stop going on about being king when he isn't. 

Pardon me; just wanted to point out that Cullen may have been friends or even enamored of a female Mage Warden. This may be evidence of the earlier pre-load and choices; uncertain. While Cullen may have wanted to anull the Ferelden Circle, the Warden and the party may not have been included in that event. But in any event, the statement could be truthful.

Modifié par Elhanan, 15 mai 2011 - 05:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alistairlover94 wrote...
Sis, you're saying that I should get used to being lied to? That hardly seems fair. If I lied about filing reports, I would get fired on the spot. Why should they get away withg lying to millions of people, while I cannot?

Because you are not a politician and not a salesperson, of course.

[Oliver Sudden]

Just to chime in, after playing DA2 for quite awhile I went back to the Baldur's Gate series to roll a new character.

'Nuff said.

[TheTranzor]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...
Sis, you're saying that I should get used to being lied to? That hardly seems fair. If I lied about filing reports, I would get fired on the spot. Why should they get away withg lying to millions of people, while I cannot?

Because you are not a politician and not a salesperson, of course.

It's called overpromise, underdeliver.  Unfortunately it happens so often that it's kind of become part of the showmanship in marketing.  Just like when a car salesman tells you his car is the best car on the face of the earth... guy's lying through his teeth, but the good ones are awfully convincing.

[Well]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Perse Remember that scene with Cullen in the Gallows? I believe it was the Keran quest. There's an option that says "Hey! I'm a mage!". I pick that option, and what does she say? "I have friends who are mages". What?!?!?!

The paraphrase was poorly chosen indeed. But the answer makes sense. Otherwise one would get hauled to the Gallows & Boom, game over.

No. No it does not. You can disagree with me how much you want, but if I get an option to shoot someone in the head, yet all that happens is giving a guy a light nudge, I expect someone to get shot. Even if the one who performed the deed would get hauled off by the authorities. You know, consequences to your actions and all that.

This is a GAME. I could cite problems like that in every RPG, even the "Touch me not" perfect DAO. Would I have preferred it differently? Yes. I'd also like Alistair stop going on about being king when he isn't. 

I remember this quote by Mr. Laidlaw. "You'll be able to shape a story that takes place over a decade. Everyone of your choices has a consequence."

Is it wrong of me to have some sort of expecations after a bold statement like that? Unless I was *gasp* lied to!

No it isn't.It goes to credibility.Next time around when the person makes a claim why would anyone believe it.Also just because others lie or make false claims doesnt make it acceptable.

[erynnar]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
So it's really a case of " you stick around to help me and I'll do the same for you" rather than "let's save the world together!".

It could have been "Well this place is a mess. Let's do something about it, shall we?". But of course that was not the case.

I wouldn't have minded doing things to help them if we had all decided to stick together due to mutual respect to try and help clean up Kirwall of something other than bandits and brigands. It would have tied it all together better. Instead, all the "scratch my back I'll scratch your's" quests added to the overall disjointed feeling of the story and the game itself imho.

And not being able to talk to them except when they wanted something from me (sans those 1 minute interludes, one act each) made it feel as if I was being manipulated. Or our relationships were nothing more than using each other. At the beginning of a relationship that may be true, but not by Act 2.

[Well]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Well: I agree. Lying is never acceptable unless it's necesarry. It wasn't.

@Tranzor: I realize that now. What a disgusting practice *spits on their lack of integrity*

I agree.Before I buy another BW game I will wait to see what folks say.I won't just go out and buy it.I been a BW fan since BG first came out.It seems odd for some of the stuff that has gone on with the game.As far as some of the interviews and such.

[TheTranzor]

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Perse Remember that scene with Cullen in the Gallows? I believe it was the Keran quest. There's an option that says "Hey! I'm a mage!". I pick that option, and what does she say? "I have friends who are mages". What?!?!?!

The paraphrase was poorly chosen indeed. But the answer makes sense. Otherwise one would get hauled to the Gallows & Boom, game over.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it makes sense.  Afterall, you're standing there talking to Cullen while wearing Mage robes with a mage's staff strapped to your back.

Honestly, I would have liked to see with this particular scenario, the mage in DA2 to be more disguised as a mage... you know, the mage outfits not resembling tower magi robes, the staff possibly more disguised (like using it like a walking stick, etc).

It is a little ridiculous that they build this mage-templar dire situation, and yet allow you to flaunt your mageliness to the templars... just dressing like a mage is ridiculous enough, let alone using magic (blood magic even) right in front of them.

I understand if they allow you to do it once you're the champion and you're given a reprieve from Meredith, but until that point you should have to do your best to disguise yourself in front of templars.

[erynnar]

Mezinger wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Being a mage in Kirkwall worked just like being Ferelden's Most Wanted in DAO worked. Plot Armor, plain and simple.

I
don't agree with this. In DA:O at least they sent an assassin after
you, there were the soldiers in the bar in Lothering, the poorly armed
mob in the same town, the Grey Wardens sympathizer trap, the knight who
challenges you to a duel, both of these last in the capital, I think
there were the odd thugs in Denerim as well who also tried to collect
the bounty and a Spy in Redcliffe. I thought in DA:O they did a way
better job reminding you that you had enemies in high places... by the
time you get to Denerim, pre-landsmeet,  you clearly have sympathizers
and people who don't believe or support Logain as well... but the fact
that playing a Mage in DA:2 makes NO difference to the reactions around
Kirkwall is atrocious!! and really shouldn't be compared to being the
most wanted in DA:O IMO. 

This^ While I enjoyed my mage, I had to totally treat it as a magical FPS where the RPG parts really didn't exist or were done by a new studio who flubbed the story. Because there is suspension of disbelief, then there is hanging it by the neck until dead. In DA2 case, a noose was required.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
You argue with them, they disapprove and leave or try to kill you. That's how. Professional disagreement is impossible. The whole system comes down to "deny I'm right and die" as the Arishok's likes to put it.

That's not true. They only leave if you manage to get a -100 disapproval, which is not possible if you disagree with them politely. Polite disagreement generate a very small disapproval and some would even admit later on to being wrong.

And I do like the DAO's version better. They would try and leave and if you stopped them, kill you if you had 100 disapproval. And I never had a problem with making them friends even when I might have had my Warden disagree with them and I didn't hardly use the gifts. I wound up with a whole chest full at camp by the time I marched on Denerim for the last time.

[erynnar]

TheTranzor wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Perse Remember that scene with Cullen in the Gallows? I believe it was the Keran quest. There's an option that says "Hey! I'm a mage!". I pick that option, and what does she say? "I have friends who are mages". What?!?!?!

The paraphrase was poorly chosen indeed. But the answer makes sense. Otherwise one would get hauled to the Gallows & Boom, game over.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it makes sense.  Afterall, you're standing there talking to Cullen while wearing Mage robes with a mage's staff strapped to your back.

Honestly, I would have liked to see with this particular scenario, the mage in DA2 to be more disguised as a mage... you know, the mage outfits not resembling tower magi robes, the staff possibly more disguised (like using it like a walking stick, etc).

It is a little ridiculous that they build this mage-templar dire situation, and yet allow you to flaunt your mageliness to the templars... just dressing like a mage is ridiculous enough, let alone using magic (blood magic even) right in front of them.

I understand if they allow you to do it once you're the champion and you're given a reprieve from Meredith, but until that point you should have to do your best to disguise yourself in front of templars.

Ah Tranzor you sexy thing you! I felt the same way! Threre I am dressed in Superior Robes which look like Circle robes and a big huge mage staff (design from DAO no less) that screams MAGE HERE!!!!  I not only cast major AoE spells earlier when I helped
Cullen with his little possessed templar problem (cut away convo while
fire balls were still falling made me giggle), but here I am robes and stick once more in his face and saying..."I'm a mage!" When he knows it already, but he stands there talking smack about mages as if I wasn't one.

[TheTranzor]

erynnar wrote...

Ah Tranzor you sexy thing you! I felt the same way! Threre I am dressed in Superior Robes which look like Circle robes and a big huge mage staff (design from DAO no less) that screams MAGE HERE!!!!  I not only cast major AoE spells earlier when I helped
Cullen with his little possessed templar problem (cut away convo while
fire balls were still falling made me giggle), but here I am robes and stick once more in his face and saying..."I'm a mage!" When he knows it already, but he stands there talking smack about mages as if I wasn't one.

Well, maybe Cullen's still shell-shocked from the potent combo of being abused at the Ferelden circle tower and being rejected by the female Mage warden. 

At the very least, I wish there was some kind of consequence for using magic at the very least around templars... you know, they yell "Hey stop apostate!" or attack or at the very least maybe dance around the fires of the Tempest spell while howling at the moon... something.  I just love how they just stand around and ignore it instead. 

And of course using scary magic around the public in general... they don't run, hide, call the authorities, or heck, even acknowledge your existence.  I swear with their disinterest, if the citizens had thought bubbles while you're flinging cones of cold and stonefists, they'd say "Huh... 4th apostate this week slaying falling sky ninjas".

Modifié par TheTranzor, 15 mai 2011 - 08:50 .