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Killing Merrill


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#201
dragonflight288

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She annoyed me her cuteness is a bit forced and her blood magic could not continue. Blood mages have a habit of becoming abominations, she even got her clan chief killed because she just had to deal with a demon. Pity her entire clan had to die though


Hold on a minute there.

Merrill got her clan killed? Merrill got Merethari killed?

Are we playing the same game? If I recall correctly, and I do (cookie points to whoever can guess the game that quote is from), Merrill voluntarily left the clan at the beginning of the game. Merrill was no longer bound by the laws of the clan. And didn't Merrill make a deal with Merethari? A deal to kill the Varterral in exchange for the tool? And didn't Merethari, once Merrill fulfilled her end of the bargain, try to back out by giving it to Hawke instead and urged Hawke NOT to give it to Merrill.

And when Merrill goes up to the mountain in Act 3, Merrill never once speaks with Merethari and tells her we are trying to contact the demon. Hawke has the choice to tell her, but on my first playthrough, I never said a word to Merethari. Merrill walked up that mountain of her own accord, and made preparations should the worst happen so that only Merrill herself would be hurt. She was prepared to die, and arranged it so no one else would be hurt.

Merethari herself opted to become an abomination. Merethari, throughout the game, never once let Merrill or Hawke know, or even hint at the demon and its supposed plan. We don't know what she knows, certainly, but she most certainly doesn't give us any reason to believe her either. Merrill had made preparations, and accepted the possibility. Merethari blindly rushed in and told us a supposed plan at the last minute, without any evidence to support her claim.

That was not what Merrill wanted. She didn't plan it, she didn't expect it. But if things had gone according to Merrill's plan, Merethari would still be alive, Merrill would be either dead or finishing the eluvian, and the situation would've been contained to one person.

But the clan absolutely hated Merrill at this point. When Merrill killed the keeper for being an abomination (something the clan is supposed to do), the first thing they do is blame Merrill for Merethari's actions.

Last I checked, Merethari is a grown up. She is also in charge of guiding the Dalish and helping them recover their lost heritage. Unless the job description changed when I wasn't looking. She can take accountability for her own actions. It was not Merrill's fault any of that happened. Merrill shares some responsibility for the lack of communication between her and the clan, but she is not accountable or responsible for the death of Merethari and potentially the clan.

#202
Lazy Jer

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Gabey5 wrote...

 Pity her entire clan had to die though


They don't.  If you choose to take responsibility for her actions the entire clan just lets you leave.  They even let you come back later.

#203
Rifneno

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What dragonflight288 said. I agree 100%. I'm not a fan of Merrill's really, but I find it laughable to try to blame her for Marethari and the clan's actions. On a related note, Marethari's heart was in the right place at least, but I don't have any sympathy for the dalish that tried to murder Hawke because their Keeper became an abomination. They got what they had coming to them.

#204
Xilizhra

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I think Marethari's heart was in the highly wrong, Audacity-infused place personally. And it's really quite convenient how the only time she ever talks about Audacity's plan is after she's already been possessed...

#205
Fiery Phoenix

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Lazy Jer wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

 Pity her entire clan had to die though

They don't.  If you choose to take responsibility for her actions the entire clan just lets you leave.  They even let you come back later

It plays out as if you did nothing, though. I expected more since I'm apparently taking full responsibility. It's actually more "interesting" if you do slaughter the clan. Not that it's what I'd do normally.

#206
TEWR

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I've grown tired of the Merrill debates. I think people already know my position.

#207
TEWR

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Xilizhra wrote...

I think Marethari's heart was in the highly wrong, Audacity-infused place personally. And it's really quite convenient how the only time she ever talks about Audacity's plan is after she's already been possessed...


I think that it was the demon speaking, just trying to get under Merrill's skin.

And if it was Marethari speaking, it's simply her speculation on the matter as she doesn't give any information to Merrill about the supposed "dangers of the Eluvian" prior to that moment. All she ever says is "It's evil!" and "Our ancestors would've wanted it to be forgotten", based solely on the taint that infected Tamlen.

Which Merrill addressed, so there isn't anything to worry about

I have to wonder: If their ancestors truly wanted them to be forgotten, then why didn't they destroy them all in the first place?

So far, every ancient Eluvian we've been introduced to was intact. One being the Dalish Elf Origin's and in that case it was intact before being shattered by Duncan.

#208
Wolf

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've grown tired of the Merrill debates. I think people already know my position.


Your signature kind of gives that away yes, lol.

#209
Wolf

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think that it was the demon speaking, just trying to get under Merrill's skin.

And if it was Marethari speaking, it's simply her speculation on the matter as she doesn't give any information to Merrill about the supposed "dangers of the Eluvian" prior to that moment. All she ever says is "It's evil!" and "Our ancestors would've wanted it to be forgotten", based solely on the taint that infected Tamlen.

Which Merrill addressed, so there isn't anything to worry about

I have to wonder: If their ancestors truly wanted them to be forgotten, then why didn't they destroy them all in the first place? Why they are so vulnarable, essentially.

So far, every ancient Eluvian we've been introduced to was intact. One being the Dalish Elf Origin's and in that case it was intact before being shattered by Duncan.


To be honest we've only seen three Eluvians. Two of which were reconstructed. One of those was Morrigan's the other Merrill's, with the intact one being the one in the Dalish elf Origin.

If they have some connection to demons, I wonder if they somehow relate to why demons basically regard mortals as morsels and tasty treats? Why mortals are so vulnerable essentially.

Interested in learning more about this... 

Modifié par Gaiden96, 24 février 2012 - 12:07 .


#210
dragonflight288

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Interesting theory. But without additional data, that's all it will be. Morrigan was pretty darn sure that the eluvians led to a place beyond the fade. And since hers worked as it was supposed to, I'm more than ready to take her at her word.

#211
TEWR

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To be honest we've only seen three Eluvians. Two of which were reconstructed. One of those was Morrigan's the other Merrill's, with the intact one being the one in the Dalish elf Origin.


Morrigan didn't rebuild one. She simply found one in the Dragonbone Wastes.

It would be impossible for her to translate an all Elvhen language book, take care of a baby (I'm fairly certain that she always has a baby in WH. Whether it's an OGB is obviously up to player choice), and build an Eluvian in the span of 2 years.

#212
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be honest we've only seen three Eluvians. Two of which were reconstructed. One of those was Morrigan's the other Merrill's, with the intact one being the one in the Dalish elf Origin.


Morrigan didn't rebuild one. She simply found one in the Dragonbone Wastes.

It would be impossible for her to translate an all Elvhen language book, take care of a baby (I'm fairly certain that she always has a baby in WH. Whether it's an OGB is obviously up to player choice), and build an Eluvian in the span of 2 years.

She steals the book specifically becasue she needs to rebuild an Eluvian. And she only ever have a child if the PC slept with her in his playthrough, otherwise she is without child.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 février 2012 - 04:08 .


#213
TEWR

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She steals the book specifically becasue she needs to rebuild an Eluvian.


I didn't realize you knew the contents of the book she took.

And she only ever have a child if the PC slept with her in his playthrough, otherwise she is without child.


Okay.

Somewhat related question: You've read Asunder correct? Is there any mention on what the Warden's status is? Is he dead because of the battle with the Archdemon or is he alive?

I know Urthemiel sort of appears -- or so the wiki claims -- but I don't quite understand what it means. Does it mean the Warden refused the DR and died as a result?

If so, it makes me wonder if Bioware is planning on doing what I've proposed they do for a few months now: Make it so that Morrigan collects the Old God's soul some other way that still allows for the Warden to be dead but also allows for the OGB to be handled appropriately.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 février 2012 - 05:52 .


#214
dragonflight288

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If they do that, then there would be a reward (or punishment) if your warden is the specific father (or makes Alistair or Loghain the father) of the Old God Baby, as there is context there compared to some child raised by a Witch of the Wilds.

#215
Augustei

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Okay.

Somewhat related question: You've read Asunder correct? Is there any mention on what the Warden's status is? Is he dead because of the battle with the Archdemon or is he alive?

I know Urthemiel sort of appears -- or so the wiki claims -- but I don't quite understand what it means. Does it mean the Warden refused the DR and died as a result?

If so, it makes me wonder if Bioware is planning on doing what I've proposed they do for a few months now: Make it so that Morrigan collects the Old God's soul some other way that still allows for the Warden to be dead but also allows for the OGB to be handled appropriately.


There is no mention of the wardens status, Urthemiel doesn't really appear its more a demon manifesting itself as Urthemiel since its in the fade and a demon is showing wynne her nightmares like in Origins - But no it is deliberately left unclear whats going on with the warden nothing suggests he is either dead or alive.

#216
Wolf

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be honest we've only seen three Eluvians. Two of which were reconstructed. One of those was Morrigan's the other Merrill's, with the intact one being the one in the Dalish elf Origin.


Morrigan didn't rebuild one. She simply found one in the Dragonbone Wastes.

It would be impossible for her to translate an all Elvhen language book, take care of a baby (I'm fairly certain that she always has a baby in WH. Whether it's an OGB is obviously up to player choice), and build an Eluvian in the span of 2 years.


Yeah just checked it out myself. Whoopsies:P

#217
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She steals the book specifically becasue she needs to rebuild an Eluvian.


I didn't realize you knew the contents of the book she took.

And she only ever have a child if the PC slept with her in his playthrough, otherwise she is without child.


Okay.

Somewhat related question: You've read Asunder correct? Is there any mention on what the Warden's status is? Is he dead because of the battle with the Archdemon or is he alive?

I know Urthemiel sort of appears -- or so the wiki claims -- but I don't quite understand what it means. Does it mean the Warden refused the DR and died as a result?

If so, it makes me wonder if Bioware is planning on doing what I've proposed they do for a few months now: Make it so that Morrigan collects the Old God's soul some other way that still allows for the Warden to be dead but also allows for the OGB to be handled appropriately.

It doesn't really go into details about the Warden's fate. I always read the part of Urthemiel in Wynne's nightmare as a reflection of some traumatic event in Wynne's life, and not the actual Old God. Could be wrong of course. But if it is the actual Old God, then I'd say it would mean that the Warden did the ritual with Morrigan, since for Urthemiel to have a reflection in the Fade, would require it to be alive.

#218
Augustei

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
then I'd say it would mean that the Warden did the ritual with Morrigan,
since for Urthemiel to have a reflection in the Fade, would require it
to be alive.


Where did you get this concept from? Sten's dead  Berasaad members show up in his fade dream, And its uncertain if the OGB is capable of even taking on a Dragons form atm since its just its soul in a human body... I mean maybe through shapeshifting but that would require studying an Old God which isnt to easy since they buried under a fair few miles of rock. And the Archdemon in the dream was corrupted whereas urthemiel is not anymore so it cant be a reflection of Urthemiel and would not require the OGB to be alive to show up in the dream

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 24 février 2012 - 01:38 .


#219
jackofalltrades456

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I love Merrill, but she's complete imbecile.She knew the risks of consorting with demons and using blood magic, yet she still did it.  Demons only want to corrupt you or transform you into an abomination.  They'll only care about your goals if they can use it for their own selfish desires. THEY WILL ALWAYS TURN ON YOU IN THE END!

I hate killing/losing companions. Anders is the only companion that's betrayed me and that I was forced to kill during my templar playthrough. Fenris has left my party, but I've always been able to re-recruit him. Merrill's approval is always max out by the end of the game so I never had her betray me.....

#220
Xilizhra

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I hate killing/losing companions. Anders is the only companion that's betrayed me and that I was forced to kill during my templar playthrough. Fenris has left my party, but I've always been able to re-recruit him. Merrill's approval is always max out by the end of the game so I never had her betray me.....

Betrayal? Hah. You betrayed the people of the city, your own family, and the concept of life itself.

#221
Rifneno

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Xilizhra wrote...

Betrayal? Hah. You betrayed the people of the city, your own family, and the concept of life itself.


:lol:  I don't remember you being nearly as... blunt as you have been lately.  It's great.

As for Merrill, I agree that her plan was foolish and dealing with demons is always a terrible idea (unless you're a PC, then you're plot armored).  That's where my agreement ends though.  While what she did could have potentially been dangerous, it turned out not to be.  It was a fruitless effort but she didn't get anyone killed.  They got themselves killed.  If she finished the mirror and it started pouring out darkspawn corruption which killed everyone in the alien then THAT would be her fault.  If some numbnuts attacks Hawke because their Keeper turned into an abomination of her own free will, that's not her fault.  That's Darwinism at work, cleaning the algae from the gene pool.

#222
Xilizhra

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Mostly I think I'm just enthusiastic about the game again, having finished playing it recently.

#223
Augustei

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Xilizhra wrote...

I hate killing/losing companions. Anders is the only companion that's betrayed me and that I was forced to kill during my templar playthrough. Fenris has left my party, but I've always been able to re-recruit him. Merrill's approval is always max out by the end of the game so I never had her betray me.....

Betrayal? Hah. You betrayed the people of the city, your own family, and the concept of life itself.


(S)he betrayed the city in the way that Ceaser and Augustus betrayed rome. That is persued a course that bettered things and the people loved them for it....and they didn't really betray rome at all. Seem to recall them begging Hawke to rule if he sides with the Templars.. Plus a bunch Mages aren't running about just calling for that exalted march already being considered.. Betrayed the Mages, yes. Betrayed the city, no.

Your own family, well that depends.. In my particular case my remaining family member was a templar anyway so I didn't really betray my family I never really felt I could betray dead people anyway.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 24 février 2012 - 04:18 .


#224
Xilizhra

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(S)he betrayed the city in the way that Ceaser and Augustus betrayed rome. That is persued a course that bettered things and the people loved them for it....and they didn't really betray rome at all. Seem to recall them begging Hawke to rule if he sides with the Templars.. Plus a bunch Mages aren't running about just calling for that exalted march already being considered.. Betrayed the Mages, yes. Betrayed the city, no.

They committed genocide on a fairly large part of the city's population. That the rest of the city liked it makes the rest of the city willing advocates of evil and I consider their opinion to be of no consequence.

#225
Rifneno

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XxDeonxX wrote...

(S)he betrayed the city in the way that Ceaser and Augustus betrayed rome. That is persued a course that bettered things and the people loved them for it....and they didn't really betray rome at all. Seem to recall them begging Hawke to rule if he sides with the Templars.. Plus a bunch Mages aren't running about just calling for that exalted march already being considered.. Betrayed the Mages, yes. Betrayed the city, no.


You obviously missed the fact that the townspeople support whichever side Hawke does. Save before killing the Arishok (or giving Isabela to him if you like pandering to terrorists) and redo the Orsino/Meredith argument a couple times. One time, side with Orsino and then talk to the townspeople. They'll all be pro-mage, anti-templar. Next time side with Meredith and talk to them. They'll be pro-templar, anti-mage. The townspeople are designed to follow suite with Hawke. The actual reason that Hawke becomes Viscount when siding with the templars is that the templars have long since usurped political power in Kirkwall. Which is against Chantry laws, but whatever, that's the least of their crimes. Hawke becomes Viscount when siding with the templars because he sided with the people that appoint the person for that position. As for Varric's remark about the town begging for it, well, in case you haven't noticed Varric likes to embellish.

As for the crusade, it was apparently never going to happen anyway given the events of Asunder. What would have REALLY been for the betterment of the city would be to chop off the arm that the templars have grasped around Kirkwall's political rule.

Your own family, well that depends.. In my particular case my remaining family member was a templar anyway so I didn't really betray my family I never really felt I could betray dead people anyway.


Funny, I always wished there was a way to "betray" Carver at the end. Templar Carver truly deserves to die. But the only opportunities to send him to the other side so he can brood and troll the Maker in person is years earlier, when he's still technically innocent. *grumble*