177 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

JaegerBane wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
I kind of think its bad.  Sure you can mop up using it, but I suspect most the people who make videos could mop up the opposition on any difficulty with a rusty spork as their only weapon.  Yeah it has a super big straight line AoE that bypasses cover.  But what it does is entirely uninspiring.  In bumps them in the air where they fall in relatively random spots and then they get up.  Sure that is useful, but pull will keepo that group out of your hair for 9 seconds before they fall, and you can throw 2 of them in the same time and outside some really perfect situations that will handle the sam enumber of targets as shockwave will.  If it was more like what Jack/Samara did at the end of their biotic field thing at the collector base it would be worth the long cooldown.  Long AoE throws them back, hits them for decent damage.  

I think the main thing is the sheer number of enemies it'll knock over. Sure, Pull and Singlarity will CC undefended enemies longer within their AoE.... which is about 3 metres at best (and the best Evo of it will have less than 2 metre AoE) while the effective AoE of Shockwave is eveything within a corridor of radius x ~10-15 metres. That's a *lot* of enemies if it's timed right.

I think the issue is while it has a huge number of potential enemies, the number of places where that potential is realised to a degree that makes it more useful than pull is few and far between.  A couple spots in Husk missions and Tahne RM are about the only place I can think of where it is worth it and then only on lower difficulties, because I only strip defenses in roughly the same araa of a throw or a pull AoE.

Anyways we are going OT from your thread, which I agree with by the way,  Yeah its a good power, but far too many times due to its slow speed etc targets will stagger out fo the effect that shold be pulling them in closer after the first stagger or 2.  There are plenty of places where it is awesome, but it is probably the most finicky class powers in the game.

[jmood88]

I can't believe people are talking about having to "learn" how to use it. Just throw it out and the enemies get caught in it, unless you have some really messed up copy I don't know how you could have a problem with it.

[Tommy6860]

I actually don't have this issue with singularity. I see where its effects seem to work based on the armor/shielding of the enemies, while also based on what difficulty setting I used. When I play on Insanity, and hit and enemy, they physically seem to be not affected, but I see the singularity power draining their shields/armors which are supposed to protect them anyway. Once their meters are down to health only, then they fly. Also, the duration of singularity seems to be tied to how many enemies and their shielding. If a few are well shielded, it seems the power is affecting multiple enemies, and therefor the duration is cut down. This seems to follow logically since it is affecting more than one enemy and the power would therefor not have the same effect on multiple enemies as it would one. Nonetheless, it is affecting the enemies still. It would be akin to wanting a magnet to be able to pick up unlimited number of metal objects, for want of a better analogy, though its magnetic properties are limited..

[kstarler]

After reading through most of the thread (and I do agree that Singularity can be hit or miss, which can be very frustrating, especially when playing aggressively), it seems to me that Singularity could be fixed by (as mentioned before) increasing the speed of the projectile and increasing the width. However, I disagree that the whole area of effect of Singularity should be increased to fix it. It seems to me that it could be fixed by increasing the size of the center of the Singularity, making it more reliable for CCing enemies (less likely they'll stagger out of it or be unaffected if it hits the top/side of cover), without making it terribly overpowered on Normal (ME1 anyone?). Basically, I'd like to see it have the same overall area of effect (I think it's well balanced as is), but with a larger area for staggering enemies.

[Aumata]

kstarler wrote...
However, I disagree that the whole area of effect of Singularity should be increased to fix it.

I disagree on the notion of leaving the current width as the same, or making it minorly bigger.  Some of the levles are gonna be freaking huge, some being even bigger than other unreal engine games levels.  It seems to me to look like we might have ME1 range, or bigger radius skills set to me.  Or at least close to it.  I personally would say having a bigger radius, and being insta cast would help Singularity, with a longer duration, while having a longer cooldown to balance it.  But that is just me personally.   I kinda of see classes skills being more potent, bigger, and hopefully more variation in the evolutions in the skills to create a more complex skill system.  Have to be balance of course, but seeing how we might end up with ME2 protection system, nothing wrong some of the skills be more potent.

[termokanden]

JaegerBane wrote...

Assuming you place it right, yeah. It's got neither the range or the radius to really match up, but realistically if you judged whether a power is worth using purely on whether another power could do the same thing slightly differently, you'd be claiming half the powers in the game were redundant. Ultimately they all either CC or kill, with the exception of the mind control powers

Not really my point.

Singularity can control through defenses, that's its specialty. Pull quickly immoblizes, sets up for extra damage, and lets you pull off Warp bombs. Throw is the quick knockdown effect that is potentially fatal if used at the right moment. Those all have their place.

Then you have Shockwave, mainly competing for the same thing Throw does. Nothing wrong with the power really, at least not on lower difficulties. But apart from those rare Husk-bowling moments that can already be tackled brilliantly with Singularity or just Pull spam, I don't think its increased area of effect outweighs Throw's low cooldown.

This means I'd rather have Throw, and if I have that, I don't really think I need Shockwave. Certainly don't have the points to max both of them anyway.

[The Spamming Troll]

Aumata wrote...

kstarler wrote...
However, I disagree that the whole area of effect of Singularity should be increased to fix it.

I disagree on the notion of leaving the current width as the same, or making it minorly bigger.  Some of the levles are gonna be freaking huge, some being even bigger than other unreal engine games levels.  It seems to me to look like we might have ME1 range, or bigger radius skills set to me.  Or at least close to it.  I personally would say having a bigger radius, and being insta cast would help Singularity, with a longer duration, while having a longer cooldown to balance it.  But that is just me personally.   I kinda of see classes skills being more potent, bigger, and hopefully more variation in the evolutions in the skills to create a more complex skill system.  Have to be balance of course, but seeing how we might end up with ME2 protection system, nothing wrong some of the skills be more potent.

i agree. the simple fact that we can combine abilities and levels are designed to be much larger really means singularity needs a major rehaul. singularity is basically ME1s version of bastion stasis, it holds one guy in place, thats it. i know you can warp bomb singularities and thats why its awesome to be an adept and all, er wahtever, but singularity should mainly be the ultimate CC tool.

really singularity is just the start. all the biotics need a rehaul.

[kstarler]

Aumata wrote...

kstarler wrote...
However, I disagree that the whole area of effect of Singularity should be increased to fix it.

I disagree on the notion of leaving the current width as the same, or making it minorly bigger.  Some of the levles are gonna be freaking huge, some being even bigger than other unreal engine games levels.  It seems to me to look like we might have ME1 range, or bigger radius skills set to me.  Or at least close to it.  I personally would say having a bigger radius, and being insta cast would help Singularity, with a longer duration, while having a longer cooldown to balance it.  But that is just me personally.   I kinda of see classes skills being more potent, bigger, and hopefully more variation in the evolutions in the skills to create a more complex skill system.  Have to be balance of course, but seeing how we might end up with ME2 protection system, nothing wrong some of the skills be more potent.

Since I have not yet seen any gameplay footage of ME3, it would be premature to call for increasing Singularity's width based on the upcoming game's combat mechanics/level design. My suggestion is based on ME2 implementation and level design, since that is the only frame of reference I have for Singularity's current incarnation.

If it turns out that levels are decidedly larger, I would support the suggestion of a truly "Wide" evolution of the power, as well as Boz's suggestion of an evolution allowing for two or more Singularities to be in use at the same time. However, as far as ME2 level design goes, I stand by my previous statement.

Modifié par kstarler, 12 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[Bozorgmehr]

JaegerBane wrote...

It's not unusable and it's definitely fun when pulled off, yeah, I think the biggest issue it has it that it's the only 6-sec recharge CC power that doesn't do anything to defences. On a difficulty where only the elites and bosses have defences, that's fine, but on a difficulty that has every tom, dick and harry has a shield then that becomes a bit of a ball-ache.

I think the biggest issue with it's reliability is it's relatively slow speed... but on a power that ignores cover and a wide radius, that's acceptable. What did you think makes it unpredictable? The direction it thows enemies?

One of the strenghts of SW is bypassing cover. You can hit enemies who are not targetable using the other biotic powers; and Shep can use it while standing safely behind cover.

The problem is indeed 'control'. When you Throw an enemy you can affect the direction by arcing, with SW it's always a mystery what's going to happen. Just like Singularity takes time to get to its destination, so does SW and you'll never know how it's going to affect enemies. A SW blast right in front of an enemy will knock him back, a blast just behind the target will knock him forward etc etc.

Targeting is also problematic because SW doesn't travel in a straight line - it's 'looking' for enemies who are (roughly) in its path, and making zig-zag movement to hit as many enemies possible. Although this can be quite nice (staggering entire rooms), it also makes it very hard / close to impossible to control. If - for example - you've two (unprotected) enemies trapped in a Singularity and a ledge on their right; you want to 'aim' SW so it'll hit them on their left side to knock em off the ledge. There's no way you can 'contol' it like that. With some luck it works as intented, with bad luck the SW will send enemies flying all over the place, possibly ending up somewhere behind you - perfect backstab position

In ME2 you've got Singularity, Shockwave, Flashbang- & Inferno Grenade and Dominate. All these powers have a delay before taking effect and/or effect is random - it's not clear what will happen. This makes using any of these powers tricky, especially when playing aggressively / dynamically. Hitting an enemy with Stasis will disable enemy (instantly), casting a drone will distract enemy (instantly), casting one of the above powers might disable/CC/control target or not, plus you'll have to wait before effects kick in. This can be frustrating at times; slapping Singularity on a target so you can focus on another enemy, but (despite being 'trapped') you're still shot at and killed by the target who's supposed to be locked in Singularity for a while

[Someone With Mass]

I think they should let the player evolve the Singularity in ME3 to be more efficient against protections.

[tonnactus]

That singularity didnt work on fenris mechs,varren and those fire spiting insects...

Was that actually intended(dumb as hell,but who knows) or does Bioware didnt pay enough money for their testers?

[kstarler]

tonnactus wrote...

That singularity didnt work on fenris mechs,varren and those fire spiting insects...

Was that actually intended(dumb as hell,but who knows) or does Bioware didnt pay enough money for their testers?

I agree with this. While I can understand why it wouldn't work on the klixen (they seem to be pretty large, roughly the size of a YMIR mech), it is a little silly that it doesn't work on fenris mechs and varren, and I hope that they change/fix it for ME3. Personally, I hope that this was simply an oversight, rather than a design choice.

[The Spamming Troll]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think they should let the player evolve the Singularity in ME3 to be more efficient against protections.

personally i think every ability should have the potential to penetrate protections. not just a signature ability, that turned out to be horrible compared to ther other 5.

[Ahglock]

kstarler wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

That singularity didnt work on fenris mechs,varren and those fire spiting insects...

Was that actually intended(dumb as hell,but who knows) or does Bioware didnt pay enough money for their testers?

I agree with this. While I can understand why it wouldn't work on the klixen (they seem to be pretty large, roughly the size of a YMIR mech), it is a little silly that it doesn't work on fenris mechs and varren, and I hope that they change/fix it for ME3. Personally, I hope that this was simply an oversight, rather than a design choice.

I don't even buy it for Ymirs.  Do Ymirs have the ability to see cloaked targets, can you not charge certain enemies in the open field, do you lose damage bonuses against certain enemies from AR, can enemies ignore Tech armor, are there targets drone does not work against?.  Why, is the adepts class power singled out for this form of unreliability.  

Modifié par Ahglock, 13 mai 2011 - 04:28 .

[kstarler]

Ahglock wrote...

I don't even buy it for Ymirs.  Do Ymirs have the ability to see cloaked targets, can you not charge certain enemies in the open field, do you lose damage bonuses against certain enemies from AR, can enemies ignore Tech armor, are there targets drone does not work against?.  Why, is the adepts class power singled out for this form of unreliability.  

I'd imagine it is for gameplay balance, as otherwise you end up with what you had in ME1, which was ridiculously overpowered. Also, I don't buy the other powers argument, with the exception of AR, which works against everything in the game, because it's basically all the Soldier has that is useful. TA and Charge can be used on a YMIR, but unless you are quick to get back to cover or have the skills of Kronner, you're going to end up dead pretty quick. Cloak is special because it's not a damaging power like the others, so it's kind of in its own catagory. However, I will go so far as to say that Heavy Singularity should indeed stagger larger enemies, even if the duration is drastically reduced.

[Dave666]

kstarler wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I don't even buy it for Ymirs.  Do Ymirs have the ability to see cloaked targets, can you not charge certain enemies in the open field, do you lose damage bonuses against certain enemies from AR, can enemies ignore Tech armor, are there targets drone does not work against?.  Why, is the adepts class power singled out for this form of unreliability.  

I'd imagine it is for gameplay balance, as otherwise you end up with what you had in ME1, which was ridiculously overpowered. Also, I don't buy the other powers argument, with the exception of AR, which works against everything in the game, because it's basically all the Soldier has that is useful. TA and Charge can be used on a YMIR, but unless you are quick to get back to cover or have the skills of Kronner, you're going to end up dead pretty quick. Cloak is special because it's not a damaging power like the others, so it's kind of in its own catagory. However, I will go so far as to say that Heavy Singularity should indeed stagger larger enemies, even if the duration is drastically reduced.

This is not meant as a go at you personally, but that argument really gets my back up.  Time and time again I see it used as a justification for what happened to Biotics in ME:2 and its complete BS.  The fact is that in ME:1 every class was overpowered at higher levels, so why do people keep singling out biotics?

A class with access to Tech (Engineer, Infiltrator and Sentinel) could completely shut down enemies, they could kill their weapons, destroy their shields and even render their abilities like Immunity and biotics completely useless.

A class with access to Combat skills (Soldier, Infiltrator and Vangard) could make themselves so tough that whole armies could shoot at you for an hour straight and if they were very lucky they might take your health down about a milimetre, they could also access more weapon skills, like Carnage, Assassination, Marksman and Overkill, which made killing enemies a piece of cake.

And yes a class with access to Biotics (Adept, Vangard and Sentinel) could (at higher levels) render enemies helpless by hanging them in the air with Biotics (unless you were hit with dampening of course, then you were screwed).

[Bozorgmehr]

Dave666 wrote...

This is not meant as a go at you personally, but that argument really gets my back up.  Time and time again I see it used as a justification for what happened to Biotics in ME:2 and its complete BS.  The fact is that in ME:1 every class was overpowered at higher levels, so why do people keep singling out biotics?

A class with access to Tech (Engineer, Infiltrator and Sentinel) could completely shut down enemies, they could kill their weapons, destroy their shields and even render their abilities like Immunity and biotics completely useless.

A class with access to Combat skills (Soldier, Infiltrator and Vangard) could make themselves so tough that whole armies could shoot at you for an hour straight and if they were very lucky they might take your health down about a milimetre, they could also access more weapon skills, like Carnage, Assassination, Marksman and Overkill, which made killing enemies a piece of cake.

And yes a class with access to Biotics (Adept, Vangard and Sentinel) could (at higher levels) render enemies helpless by hanging them in the air with Biotics (unless you were hit with dampening of course, then you were screwed).

So you're point is - let's make biotics OP because some other powers are or previously were OP too?

It's bad enough that some ME2 powers are (a bit) too powerful as it is, but this is not a valid reason to destroy the game completely. Singularity not working on dogs is bad, but I see no problem in not working (fully) against YMIRs or even Krogan. Same with something like Charge, it's ridiculous Shep can Charge an (unprotected) Krogan and send him flying whilst a Charging Krogan only staggers Shep inflicting hardly any damage at all. Charging a Krogan should be like Charging a concrete wall imo - YMIR idem.

[Dave666]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

This is not meant as a go at you personally, but that argument really gets my back up.  Time and time again I see it used as a justification for what happened to Biotics in ME:2 and its complete BS.  The fact is that in ME:1 every class was overpowered at higher levels, so why do people keep singling out biotics?

A class with access to Tech (Engineer, Infiltrator and Sentinel) could completely shut down enemies, they could kill their weapons, destroy their shields and even render their abilities like Immunity and biotics completely useless.

A class with access to Combat skills (Soldier, Infiltrator and Vangard) could make themselves so tough that whole armies could shoot at you for an hour straight and if they were very lucky they might take your health down about a milimetre, they could also access more weapon skills, like Carnage, Assassination, Marksman and Overkill, which made killing enemies a piece of cake.

And yes a class with access to Biotics (Adept, Vangard and Sentinel) could (at higher levels) render enemies helpless by hanging them in the air with Biotics (unless you were hit with dampening of course, then you were screwed).

So you're point is - let's make biotics OP because some other powers are or previously were OP too?

It's bad enough that some ME2 powers are (a bit) too powerful as it is, but this is not a valid reason to destroy the game completely. Singularity not working on dogs is bad, but I see no problem in not working (fully) against YMIRs or even Krogan. Same with something like Charge, it's ridiculous Shep can Charge an (unprotected) Krogan and send him flying whilst a Charging Krogan only staggers Shep inflicting hardly any damage at all. Charging a Krogan should be like Charging a concrete wall imo - YMIR idem.

Boz?  Why do you always jump to that conclusion?  The point I was trying to make is that Tech and especially Combat remained just as effective in ME:2 as they were in ME:1, Soldiers have AR, Vangards have Charge (which while technically a biotic ability acts more like a combat one), Infiltrators have Cloak etc.  The Tech users have abilities like Incinerate that can destroy Armor and Health in one shot.  Hell even the Sentinel which is supposed to be a hybrid of Tech and Biotics ended up getting a Tech ability as its signiture power.

Biotics simply haven't kept up. I have no problem with the idea of rebalancing classes if Bioware feels that its needed, but I do have a problem when the classes are not balanced equally.

Modifié par Dave666, 13 mai 2011 - 11:04 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Dave666 wrote...

Boz?  Why do you always jump to that conclusion?  The point I was trying to make is that Tech and especially Combat remained just as effective in ME:2 as they were in ME:1, Soldiers have AR, Vangards have Charge (which while technically a biotic ability acts more like a combat one), Infiltrators have Cloak etc.  The Tech users have abilities like Incinerate that can destroy Armor and Health in one shot.  Hell even the Sentinel which is supposed to be a hybrid of Tech and Biotics ended up getting a Tech ability as its signiture power.

Biotics simply haven't kept up. I have no problem with the idea of rebalancing classes if Bioware feels that its needed, but I do have a problem when the classes are not balanced equally.

Tech and Combat powers have the exact same issues as Biotic powers in ME2. There are no powers able to one-shot enemies (down to health) on Insanity. You'll need to use Incinerate twice to completely kill an enemy's health bar, or two Warp, or one Warpbomb. Warp works on both armor and barrier, Incinerate is only effective against armor. The only Combat powers in ME2 are grenades, CS, and Fortification - not the most useful powers overall.

Stuff like ARush and Cloak are buffs, not powers - I don't see what they've got to do with biotic powers.

The whole point of the OP is about Singularity NOT being the most reliable power in ME2 - which is true. If you're arguing that this needs to change in ME3; making Singularity a bit more like Combat Drones - i.e a reliable way to disable or distract protected enemies - I'm with you. The OP, however, does not call for major changes to be made, he's only trying to get the message to the devs to, at least, make Singularity do the things it's meant to do in the first place.

[Dave666]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Boz?  Why do you always jump to that conclusion?  The point I was trying to make is that Tech and especially Combat remained just as effective in ME:2 as they were in ME:1, Soldiers have AR, Vangards have Charge (which while technically a biotic ability acts more like a combat one), Infiltrators have Cloak etc.  The Tech users have abilities like Incinerate that can destroy Armor and Health in one shot.  Hell even the Sentinel which is supposed to be a hybrid of Tech and Biotics ended up getting a Tech ability as its signiture power.

Biotics simply haven't kept up. I have no problem with the idea of rebalancing classes if Bioware feels that its needed, but I do have a problem when the classes are not balanced equally.

Tech and Combat powers have the exact same issues as Biotic powers in ME2. There are no powers able to one-shot enemies (down to health) on Insanity. You'll need to use Incinerate twice to completely kill an enemy's health bar, or two Warp, or one Warpbomb. Warp works on both armor and barrier, Incinerate is only effective against armor. The only Combat powers in ME2 are grenades, CS, and Fortification - not the most useful powers overall.

Stuff like ARush and Cloak are buffs, not powers - I don't see what they've got to do with biotic powers.

The whole point of the OP is about Singularity NOT being the most reliable power in ME2 - which is true. If you're arguing that this needs to change in ME3; making Singularity a bit more like Combat Drones - i.e a reliable way to disable or distract protected enemies - I'm with you. The OP, however, does not call for major changes to be made, he's only trying to get the message to the devs to, at least, make Singularity do the things it's meant to do in the first place.

As usual we agree on the problem Boz, I agree having Singularity being reliable and working on all enemies (depending on evolution of course) is critical, after all the whole point of the Adept is Crowd Control, so if you remove that then the Adepts is just a gimped Soldier and not what I and many others would like to play.  Personaly I'm for having the Heavy versions of powers able to bypass defences (but only with effects not damage).  

Imagine using say Heavy Pull on an enemy with a Shield on, it lifts the enemy but obviously not for as long as it would if you had that enemy's defences down, now imagine if you could throw a warp at that pulled enemy, and it triggered a warp explosion which instead of doing loads of damage simply threw his friends (who also have protections) on the ground so that they have to go through the 'getting up' animation.  You have effectively controlled that crowd, but not done much damage.

Or imagine if Heavy Singularity was strong enough to even stagger YMIR sized enemies.  I've said before and I hold to the idea that if Singularity simply had a duration instead of a 'x enemies before dispelling', then you could throw it at an area and control that part of the field, remember that you still have to kill them and you can only have one Singularity at a time so if that group has friends you still have to deal with them shooting at you.

The Adept to me should be about locking down the field, controlling the enemies, limiting their movements etc.
 
There are loads of ways that Biotics could be used without it being overpowered, all it takes is a little imagination on the part of Bioware.

Modifié par Dave666, 13 mai 2011 - 12:22 .

[The Spamming Troll]

i fully agree with dave. bozo just came to argue nonsense.

[Dave666]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i fully agree with dave. bozo just came to argue nonsense.

I appreciate the support TST but I'm not sure that I agree with your assesment of Boz.  The impression that I get is that Boz likes a challenge and doesn't want the Adept to become like the Soldier in ME:2 (i.e. the easy class) and thats fine I understand that, however hopefully Boz can understand that quite a few people have issues with the Adept as it currently stands and would like some changes made.  The trick is finding the right balance of changes that make the Adept a force to be reckoned with, without being overpowered.

[termokanden]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i fully agree with dave. bozo just came to argue nonsense.

Boz is just one of the people who understands the class well and is trying to spread some tips and tricks for others to use. He isn't arguing nonsense here either.

No the game isn't all that balanced, but Adepts are not half as useless as a lot of people seem to think.

[The Spamming Troll]

bozo is the yin to my yang. hed say the same about me, im sure of it.

but charge, cloak, AR, tech armor and drone area already OP. drone is essentially singularity, with legs, with a much larger radius. i want singularity to be OP. hell i want all of biotics to be OP, but ill start with our signature ability meaning more then one thats available to all classes like stasis.

[The Spamming Troll]

the thing is they are gimped, everyone can see it, even you. so why deny that fact? the game will be better if defense are implemented better. its unfortunate that you cant see that. id guarantee bioware changes the way abilities are used in ME3. they wont lose you as a fan by changeing that, they only gain more.