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[Mecha Tengu]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Why is it so often bl**dy assumed that just because someone with strong moral standards is meta gaming? That p*sses me off...<_<...

Don't worry. They can't word their reasons any better, so they have to resort to generic internet terms, like retcon, fanservice and meta-gaming. Just ignore and move on.

In real life or in any decent story, taking the riskier, nicer, and overall "Good" option doesn't always lead to sunshine and butterflies. Unexepcted things can happen.... unless you're playing a derp RPG. People want to be a hero, fine go ahead and be the good guy. I just find it annoying that Renegades are absolutely punished for every logical or realistic solution to any problem, and Paragons are rewarded with unprecedented sucess and positive results for everyone

Herp derp metagaming isn't enough of a reason for you? 

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, the Paragon outcomes don't have anything to get the player to wonder "Was it worth it?" in the same way the Renegade ones do.

That's not true. Al'Jilani does a good job of making Shepard justify why it was worth it and points out that even the Paragon path required a sacrifice. I really like that. All I'd change is to add a few more humans who were similarily hostile (and are friendly in a Renegade universe). Perhaps one of these humans would be an established character (maybe Admiral Hackett). I'd also have the human Council meet with Shepard.

There is a lot of truth in this and it will be interesting to see what the public reaction to Shepard's trial is. We have already had his death and ressurrection, perhaps we are just getting his trial late?

I wonder who will be playing the role of Pontius Pilate.....

[Moiaussi]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

In real life or in any decent story, taking the riskier, nicer, and overall "Good" option doesn't always lead to sunshine and butterflies. Unexepcted things can happen.... unless you're playing a derp RPG. People want to be a hero, fine go ahead and be the good guy. I just find it annoying that Renegades are absolutely punished for every logical or realistic solution to any problem, and Paragons are rewarded with unprecedented sucess and positive results for everyone

Herp derp metagaming isn't enough of a reason for you? 

In real life you don't get to see both outcomes, so how are you sure which route turns out worst? I get tired of people citing 'realism' when their version of realism equates to their own prejudices. The news reports a lot more failures than successes. When things work, that is 'the way things are supposed to be', not newsworthy. Moreover, the media reports successes from whereever they find the stories, so we hear of all the bad things in the world no matter where they are as if they are all happening in our immediate neighborhood.

When the media does report context, they tend to spin it towards the worst more often than towards the best. Happy people are less worried about news.

This doesn't mean bad things don't happen, just that the percentages are a lot lower than many think they are.

[Mecha Tengu]

exactly the point^

you DON'T know the outcome. Just happens that EVERY outcome in mass effect so far has been extremely predictable and self proving.




Paragon U.S.A encounters Islamic militants! what do? Supply and organize militants, send them to fight Soviet Union. Derp 20 years later, they attack us now. Goddamn paragon choices

Renegade U.S.A encounters Islamic militants! what do? Refuse their pleas of help and tell them to gtfo, you need that money for yourself.

(now we really need choices like this in mass effect, paragon choices that come back to bite shepard in the ass)

[Aumata]

I play renegade for the most part, and I find this to be complete bull****, on the factor that their is no proof of anyone getting screwed yet. NONE! Why are people saying renegade got screwed is beyond me. Though that doesn't mean both should suffer consequences for their actions. I mean let it happen. But their hasn't been much to show either being screwed. Though making people go ass backward on picking the base was odd. Though I just place it at, they thought about it some more.

[NoSoyBueno]

The problem is that Paragon choices never have any real negative consequences.  This is observable in ME2.

-NSB

Modifié par NoSoyBueno, 23 mai 2011 - 06:39 .

[Moiaussi]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

exactly the point^

you DON'T know the outcome. Just happens that EVERY outcome in mass effect so far has been extremely predictable and self proving.

Paragon U.S.A encounters Islamic militants! what do? Supply and organize militants, send them to fight Soviet Union. Derp 20 years later, they attack us now. Goddamn paragon choices

Renegade U.S.A encounters Islamic militants! what do? Refuse their pleas of help and tell them to gtfo, you need that money for yourself.

(now we really need choices like this in mass effect, paragon choices that come back to bite shepard in the ass)

You figure the Council abandoning you no matter what you do doesn't count? Renegades have the satisfaction of killing the original council and sending them into hiding.

As for you 'Islamic militants' point, how many Geth 'militants' did we kill in ME? Paragons don't always assume everyone is just going to surrender nicely. In RL there are plenty of 'militants' who do outgrow their hate. The vast majority of the German and Japanese armies, the majority of surviving Irish terrorists all come to mind off hand.

Don't cite US foreign policy as 'paragon' though. None of that was done to help the militants, and where it has gone badly it is just as often a result of the US vilifying the militants as soon as they are no longer useful.

That is a discussion for an entirely other board though.

[Moiaussi]

NoSoyBueno wrote...

The problem is that Paragon choices never have any real negative consequences.  This is observable in ME2.

-NSB

What are the 'negative consequences' of renegade choices? What choices either way really affected ME2?

[Saaziel]

^You don't access the "Legion" content if you take the Renegade option once on board.

The trade off is , apparently, 50 k credits reward form Cerberus, which at that point is utterly useless. Aside from that , nothing really stands out as unfair to Renegades.

Modifié par Saaziel, 23 mai 2011 - 06:49 .

[NoSoyBueno]

Moiaussi wrote...
What are the 'negative consequences' of renegade choices? What choices either way really affected ME2?

I am not going to spend an hour hunting down and naming each individual choice so that you can dismiss it with a single sentence - I am not an internet noob.  You know they are there, so stop acting otherwise.

-NSB

[Ship.wreck_]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Yep, it's one of those threads... except this time it's written by a paragon.

Basically, I've been thinking about the two moralities, and I think that at it's core, renegade is about minimising risk at the expense of morality, while paragon is about choosing not to sacrifice morality, but take more risks in the process.
It seems to me that it makes that choice more meaningful if some of those risks blow up in your face.

Take Balak. You can either make sure he's captured, but have the blood of innocents on your hands. Or, you can let him go to save their lives. Naturally, this should have repercussions, and makes the choice seem more difficult if it is. Keeping your morality shouldn't be an easy task.

And please, don't let this become a flamewar. I'd like to approach this more objectively this time.

Meh, it kind of makes sense. The high road is the hard road. I could rob a liquer store and have a whole lot of money in a few minutes, the moral alternative is to work my ass off for a month to make the same or less money. If we got some huge reward for being good, we wouldn't be being good for the sake of being good, only to further ourselves. Kinda defeats the purpose and doesn't reflect reality very well. On the contrary there are huge and immediate rewards for doing bad things in life, which is what makes being bad so tempting. The point of a morality system if you ask me is to showcase the struggle of being moral. Or to revel in the indulgence of not hahaha!

Aside from that my only problem of the Paragon / Renegade system is the use of the term renegade. Renegades are not immoral people who disregard the lives of the innocent for the aquisition of their own goals. Renegades are people who disregard the RULES in order to get things done. Basically people who don't put up with red tape bs... which is Shepard wether he's a "Renegade" or not.

Perfect example of a real renegade: Watch Tears of the Sun. Bruce Willis's Navy SEAL character is 100% renegade and 100% good guy. Without spoilering: He absolutely disregards a direct order from his commanding officer in favor of protecting some refugees, the act of doing so being contrary to his orders. He also plays "fast and loose" with the Rules of Engagement in order to engage and kill a band of rebels who are pilaging a town of innocent people essentially commiting an crime of war in order to protect the innocent when technically the rules would dictate that he not get involved directly in the conflict.

So you see, being a renegade has nothing to do with being amoral, or evil, or sacrificing the lives of the innocent simply to achieve your own personal or proffessional goals, as the depiction of the term in ME would suggest. In fact sometimes the moral and rightous choice IS to break the rules and be a renegade. Sometimes playing by the rules means allowing horrible things to happen.

[DPSSOC]

Aumata wrote...

I play renegade for the most part, and I find this to be complete bull****, on the factor that their is no proof of anyone getting screwed yet. NONE! Why are people saying renegade got screwed is beyond me. Though that doesn't mean both should suffer consequences for their actions. I mean let it happen. But their hasn't been much to show either being screwed. Though making people go ass backward on picking the base was odd. Though I just place it at, they thought about it some more.

Well Renegades get screwed in that there are no advertised benefits to their choices and no advertised disadvantages for Paragons.  This generates the impression that every Renegade choice goes wrong and every Paragon choice goes right.  Which in turn leads to people feeling cheated because it turns Paragon vs Renegade into Gain a benefit vs Shoot yourself in the foot.  It may be an entirely false impression but that's what people have gotten, and the fear of this impression becoming the reality of the situation has people upset.

Personally I just don't like how Paragon choices were handled because it strips them of weight.  Whether or not to let a criminal go is only a dilemna when you don't know they won't cause trouble.  Because of ME2's handling of Paragon decisions in ME1 you can blindly choose Paragon knowing that, even if it looks like it could go bad, it won't.  What I love about the Renegade choices is that they do make you consider, "Maybe that wasn't the best choice after all." and I just don't see that in the Paragon choices.

[Aumata]

Saaziel wrote...

^You don't access the "Legion" content if you take the Renegade option once on board.

The trade off is , apparently, 50 k credits reward form Cerberus, which at that point is utterly useless. Aside from that , nothing really stands out as unfair to Renegades.

That is your becomes your own fault though.  Hell I made that descion on my engineer despite knowing that the hertics were going to mindwipe the rest of the geth.  Who knows what the trade off is though, considering I let David stay with project Overlord, and giving the geth away will be interesting.  Looking forward to my kill'em all playthrough for Mass Effect 3.

[Aumata]

Ship.wreck wrote...
Meh, it kind of makes sense. The high road is the hard road. I could rob a liquer store and have a whole lot of money in a few minutes, the moral alternative is to work my ass off for a month to make the same or less money. If we got some huge reward for being good, we wouldn't be being good for the sake of being good, only to further ourselves. Kinda defeats the purpose and doesn't reflect reality very well. On the contrary there are huge and immediate rewards for doing bad things in life, which is what makes being bad so tempting. The point of a morality system if you ask me is to showcase the struggle of being moral. Or to revel in the indulgence of not hahaha!

Aside from that my only problem of the Paragon / Renegade system is the use of the term renegade. Renegades are not immoral people who disregard the lives of the innocent for the aquisition of their own goals. Renegades are people who disregard the RULES in order to get things done. Basically people who don't put up with red tape bs... which is Shepard wether he's a "Renegade" or not.

Perfect example of a real renegade: Watch Tears of the Sun. Bruce Willis's Navy SEAL character is 100% renegade and 100% good guy. Without spoilering: He absolutely disregards a direct order from his commanding officer in favor of protecting some refugees, the act of doing so being contrary to his orders. He also plays "fast and loose" with the Rules of Engagement in order to engage and kill a band of rebels who are pilaging a town of innocent people essentially commiting an crime of war in order to protect the innocent when technically the rules would dictate that he not get involved directly in the conflict.

So you see, being a renegade has nothing to do with being amoral, or evil, or sacrificing the lives of the innocent simply to achieve your own personal or proffessional goals, as the depiction of the term in ME would suggest. In fact sometimes the moral and rightous choice IS to break the rules and be a renegade. Sometimes playing by the rules means allowing horrible things to happen.

Excellent post.

[Ship.wreck_]

Aumata wrote...
Excellent post.

Thank you

[Someone With Mass]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

In real life or in any decent story, taking the riskier, nicer, and overall "Good" option doesn't always lead to sunshine and butterflies. Unexepcted things can happen.... unless you're playing a derp RPG. People want to be a hero, fine go ahead and be the good guy. I just find it annoying that Renegades are absolutely punished for every logical or realistic solution to any problem, and Paragons are rewarded with unprecedented sucess and positive results for everyone

Herp derp metagaming isn't enough of a reason for you? 

And I hate when people assume that most Renegade choices will punish the player in ME3, even if they have absolutely no idea of knowing so.

[Someone With Mass]

Aumata wrote...

I play renegade for the most part, and I find this to be complete bull****, on the factor that their is no proof of anyone getting screwed yet. NONE! Why are people saying renegade got screwed is beyond me. Though that doesn't mean both should suffer consequences for their actions. I mean let it happen. But their hasn't been much to show either being screwed. Though making people go ass backward on picking the base was odd. Though I just place it at, they thought about it some more.

People tend to focus on the negative so they have something to **** about, that's why. 

[Ship.wreck_]

Someone With Mass wrote...
And I hate when people assume that most Renegade choices will punish the player in ME3, even if they have absolutely no idea of knowing so.

And I hate when people assume that ME3 will come along and suddenly shatter all of the thusfar solidly established conventions of the ME series like that renegade choices are punished.

[Someone With Mass]

Lack of content? There's a easy solution to that. Stop killing off characters.

[ObserverStatus]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Yep, it's one of those threads... except this time it's written by a paragon.

Basically, I've been thinking about the two moralities, and I think that at it's core, renegade is about minimising risk at the expense of morality, while paragon is about choosing not to sacrifice morality, but take more risks in the process.
It seems to me that it makes that choice more meaningful if some of those risks blow up in your face.

Take Balak. You can either make sure he's captured, but have the blood of innocents on your hands. Or, you can let him go to save their lives. Naturally, this should have repercussions, and makes the choice seem more difficult if it is. Keeping your morality shouldn't be an easy task.

And please, don't let this become a flamewar. I'd like to approach this more objectively this time.

I agree, paragons seem to take a lot more risks than renegades, but whenever a risk paragons player takes pays off, renegade players will post a thread about how...

Modifié par bobobo878, 23 mai 2011 - 08:14 .

[Nashiktal]

I think Bioware and fans are putting far too much value on the position of the wheel.

I can't remember who said it, but the person that said true renegades have blue in their bar was right. P and R just can't be properly measured with a simple top/down system in the wheel.

Honestly renegades don't lack in content, only those who kill characters lack in content. (Which is kind of the point. The very fact you have removed someone from the game is a *reward* in itself) The only problem is that the choice to kills someone is at the bottom of the wheel, and as such considered *renegade* outside of considering the context.

[Someone With Mass]

Nashiktal wrote...

I think Bioware and fans are putting far too much value on the position of the wheel.

I can't remember who said it, but the person that said true renegades have blue in their bar was right. P and R just can't be properly measured with a simple top/down system in the wheel.

Honestly renegades don't lack in content, only those who kill characters lack in content. (Which is kind of the point. The very fact you have removed someone from the game is a *reward* in itself) The only problem is that the choice to kills someone is at the bottom of the wheel, and as such considered *renegade* outside of considering the context.

If only more people could comprehend this...

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 23 mai 2011 - 08:42 .

[TheOtherTheoG]

Why do people feel that there is a need to reward paragons and punish renegades for some decisions and vice versa for others, that's a really lazy way of going about it. Wouldn't it be better if, rather than making some choices reward you and others punish you, making each different, both rewarding and punishing you in some way. For example, if you saved the Rachni queen, you have an extra faction to fight the Reaper's, but you also have a bunch of huskified rachni to deal with on the side. If you killed her, you don't have to deal with the ****ed up rachni, but you also don't get them as a resource in the final battle, balancing it out.