904 réponses à ce sujet

[HogarthHughes 3]

Mufasa92 wrote...

Honestly I don't think there is enough of a difference between Paragon and Renegade. I guess that since Shepherd is a hero they can't make him too "bad guyish" but he seems like a diet badass to me as a Renegade. I guess I feel that way since in DA:O being a "renegade" actually caused you to do some really effed up things.

In DAO you can do things that aren't really "renegade" but just plain evil.  Like letting the desire demon possess Connor late on in life just for a book/pleasure/power etc.  Admittedly there is one renegade decision in ME 2 that is just as bad (choosing Morinth over Samara) and is really more evil/stupid than pragmatic.  Renegade Shepard can still leave plenty of people to die, such as in Zaeeds loyalty mission, the batarian in Omega, and the salarian in the Dantius Towers are a few I can think of.  Those are more heartless than evil though.

[Rip504]

If you chose to do something in ME1,why are you complaining about the outcome in ME2. It was your choice. You made the decision to kill or save someone or something. Now you can't live with your choice and you are blaming someone else? I agree the Renagade does feel like a lack of content,but only compared to a Paragon Import? You chose to kill of that content,not Bioware!

I still Prefer ME1 stlye. In your later playthroughs you could pick whatever suited you best. By unlocking both bars.
I vote to bring back the ability to unlock both bars in ME3,not just interupts!

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mai 2011 - 02:39 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Again though, there's a difference between bad reactions and a lack of content. Someone could've sought revenge against a Renegade or attracted shady individuals to do missions for them. There could've been a whole host of "negative" outcome without limiting content so I'd say that point's pretty moot.

The problem with that is that a whole revenge scenario is one heck of a lot more content than someone simply sending a thank you or a cameo with a couple lines of text. It also assumes that there is someone to take revenge who is stupid enough to go up against Shepard when their friend already failed.

If they really cared for their loved one etc. I'm sure they'd try.  Especially those upset about what happened to the Council.  And they don't have to go directly, they could hire a gang (like the Blue Suns) to hunt Shepard down.  Or, like I said before, Shepard's action could've attracted the attention of groups (like Cerberus) that liked what Shepard did.

That's the main distinction between content and negative reactions.  One doesn't equate to the other.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's what the problem is, that's what Renegade players are so frustrated about, and I don't understand why Paragons aren't. You've created a dream world where nothing goes wrong and that's just boring. Where's the conflict, where's the dilemna, where's the difficulty when everything goes right?

Why do you care about how our universes go?

Because you deserve better.

[Rip504]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

See this is exactly the problem. If either side suffers a negative result from their actions, the other side cries that they are missing out on content. If they don't suffer a negative result, the other side complains that all the results are positive. It is lose lose for the writers, so we get stories where nothing matters.

You can repeat all you want but at least acknowledge the dilemma.

There is no dilemma! There can be a bad consequence for SHEPARD that still provides additional content for the PLAYER!

The problem with Renegade choices is that when you import them you often wind up with nothing. It isn't a disaster, it isn't a success. Just nothing happens. This spoils the point of importing in the first place. Like I just said.

Now for story reasons Paragon decisions always having positive effects for Shepard is annoying, yeah, but it is much less of an issue than the LACK OF CONTENT.

If, say, freeing the rachni queen had caused them to attack in ME2, forcing you to do a mission where you fight rachni, that would be a bad thing for Shepard, the character. However the player would benefit with an additional mission to play, meaning more experience points and maybe an additional upgrade. You can reward the player no matter how their decision affects the game world.

This is your opinion,and I strongly disagree. Lets cause conflict for doing the right thing,because you are upset with Renagade, So let's ruin it for someone else? You saved the Rachni's life. It makes perfect sense to have it repay you in a postive way. Why hate? It is your choice to play as a Paragon or Renagade. In ME1 my Shepard made many choices in both. If I kill the Queen I expect it to be dead in ME2. I don't understand the problem. Your not getting want you want?"

[Dave of Canada]

Renegade: No imported content, no benefits, everybody hates you.
Paragon: Additional imported content, benefits, everybody loves you.

What happened to "Many decisions lie ahead, none of them easy"? Asking for equality among content, benefits and consequences among both is wrong?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 mai 2011 - 03:10 .

[Rip504]

So you want everyone to love your Renagade and have all of the Paragon's benefits while remaing as 2 different playthroughs? If you choose to kill someone and they are not in ME2 that is your content. You killed this or that,why would people love that? Apparently choosing to kill someone or let them live isn't an easy choice.If it were, you wouldn't be in here complaining .lol
What does a Paragon really have over a Renagade in ME2 50 exp,and 3 mini convos?

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mai 2011 - 03:21 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

Rip504 wrote...

This is your opinion,and I strongly disagree. Lets cause conflict for doing the right thing,because you are upset with Renagade, So let's ruin it for someone else? You saved the Rachni's life. It makes perfect sense to have it repay you in a postive way. Why hate? It is your choice to play as a Paragon or Renagade. In ME1 my Shepard made many choices in both. If I kill the Queen I expect it to be dead in ME2. I don't understand the problem. Your not getting want you want?"

You're not getting it.  Its about game content.  Bioware has thus far made it so that killing people means no cameo appearance of any kind.  Paragons get more content than renegades.  A different cameo appearance could have been very easy to do,  but they didn't bother.  Certainly it isn't unreasonable to expect some deaths to just result in no cameo appearances, but all of them?  It just isn't fair to renegade players in terms of content.

Bioware has also failed to create any noticeable consequences for being a paragon.  The renegade decisions "have teeth" as someone else I forgot the name of aptly put it.  Paragon decisions are no-brainers when everything just works out perfectly and everyone goes home happy.  Paragons don't have to make any sacrifices to get the job done.  For instance, nobody seems to care that it cost 8 Alliance ships to save the Council.  Aliens have more respect for humanity and are more willing to work with them.  The more renegade choice (leave them to die) put humanity on top, but stirs up a lot of resentment from the aliens.

The costs are much more real on the renegade path, but that also makes the gains seem all that much sweeter.  Thing is, those gains are cheapened when they could have been attained just as easily on the paragon path.  The only paragon decision I can think of that really proves to be a bad one is to let that one eclipse mercenary go during Samaras recruitment mission.

I'm not even asking for more paragon decisions to be like that though.  Just for the paragon decisions to "have some teeth to them" as well, and for renegades to get roughly equal content.  It would make for a more satisfying experience, playing as either renegade or paragon.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 24 mai 2011 - 03:25 .

[Rip504]

I do get it,and I think it is fair. The families of those 8 Alliance ships deff cared about what happen. Cerberus redirects hate mail. You chose to kill,now your upset your choice left you with no cameo. My Renagade wanted this. I killed them to be done with them,why mention it in ME2? A random mad man is after you,let's take a mission to go deal with him? I'll pass.

More Real. That is an opinion. Not a Fact.
And the whole Paragon teeth thing is cool for 1 or 2 actions. Thus far there has been just a few. You can not constantly have a bad side to every good choice you make. That is insane. And would get just as old. If I decide to help you move,I should get paid,thanked,and have a hardship because of it?  You got food for the chef,made his job easier,but now everyone has food poison you need to deal with. I'll pass and still disagree. Bad examples I agree. Everytime a Paragon saves a life,a life is lost.Is this what you want? Give us an example.
 But in ME3 it seems we will be picking sides,and this could make things much more interesting.

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mai 2011 - 03:42 .

[DPSSOC]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...
The only paragon decision I can think of that really proves to be a bad one is to let that one eclipse mercenary go during Samaras recruitment mission.

And I'm still offering 10:1 odds she'll turn up in ME3 running an orphanage or puppy shelter or something.  That or she'll be completely beaten down like Fist.

[Golden Owl]

Just a point of interest...no for's or against's here in regards to saving or not saving the council, yesterday I finished ME1 again and tried to carefully watch the battle play out, I was watching for Alliance losses when saving the Dreadnought, then watched for losses when taking on Sovereign...my eyes may not have been quick enough to pick up losses against the Geth ships, but I am quite sure most of the losses occur when facing Sovereign....just reporting what I could see in the battles.

[Dave of Canada]

Rip504 wrote...

So you want everyone to love your Renagade and have all of the Paragon's benefits while remaing as 2 different playthroughs? If you choose to kill someone and they are not in ME2 that is your content. You killed this or that,why would people love that? Apparently choosing to kill someone or let them live isn't an easy choice.If it were, you wouldn't be in here complaining .lol

Really quick without much thought into it:

If I killed the Rachni Queen, I expected people going "Oh hey, you're the guy who killed the Rachni Queen! Those darn bugs" or the Krogan going "We'll never forget what you did!".

Benefit: You've earned the trust of the Krogan.
Consequence: No Rachni.
Cameo: You get people mentioning it.

If I spared the Rachni Queen, I expected people to be going "omfg what did you do!!!1" and the Krogan to be like "We busted our asses off to kill them... and you let them go?!".

Benefit: The Rachni are going to help you.
Consequence: The Krogan are bitter against you.
Cameo: You get people mentioning it.

Repeat with pretty much every decision in the game.

This way, everybody gets different content and there's no right or wrong decision.

In the current system, Paragons recieve benefits, no consequences and extra content while Renegades get no benefits, consequences and no content.

Right now, what we have is:

Spare the Rachni Queen.
Benefit: The Rachni are going to help you.
Consequence: None for now.
Cameo: You get the Rachni Queen's asari lady to talk with you.

Kill the Rachni Queen.
Benefit: None.
Consequence: The Rachni are dead.
Cameo: None.

Which is heavily biased in regard of the paragon player, in addition to the dialogue that outright scolds Renegades for their decisions and praises Paragons for how brilliant they are (ME2 epilogue) and how the magazines are calling Renegades idiots... we're worried it'll be the same in ME3.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 mai 2011 - 03:57 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

I'll use the Collector base for an example. Obviously TIM isn't someone you'd want to rely on, but one thing I think he can be counted on for is opposing the reapers. (although Cerberus is apparently an enemy to at least some extent in ME3, we don't really know the specifics and whether or not TIM is the one who wants Shepard dead or not). Hypothetical situation here: giving TIM the base gives Shepard the opportunity to work with him again in ME3. Shepard can then help TIM sacrifice lets say 100,000 unwilling innocents (just has to be a noticeable amount) in order to effectively use the technology. This in turn can be used to destroy a large number of the reapers, saving millions of lives over the course of the battle. TIM and Cerberus would also remain after the reapers lose, and be free to continue their rather questionable activities.

If Shepard destroyed the base then TIM and Cerberus are taken down completely by the end of the game, though there is no opportunity to save those that would have lived if the base had been used.

Both decisions have pros and cons.  The renegade path sacrifices morality, doing cruel and horrible things for the greater good.  The paragon path refuses to stoop to such measures even if it means extinction.

What can be expected from ME3 given what we've seen so far is instead:
Give Collector Base = Bad, TIM turns out to be a crony to the Reapers either way and you just helped out a future enemy.
Destroy Collector Base = Good, Alliance & aliens trust Shepard more and Cerberus is less of a problem.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 24 mai 2011 - 04:08 .

[Moiaussi]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Really quick without much thought into it:

If I killed the Rachni Queen, I expected people going "Oh hey, you're the guy who killed the Rachni Queen! Those darn bugs" or the Krogan going "We'll never forget what you did!".

Benefit: You've earned the trust of the Krogan.
Consequence: No Rachni.
Cameo: You get people mentioning it.

If I spared the Rachni Queen, I expected people to be going "omfg what did you do!!!1" and the Krogan to be like "We busted our asses off to kill them... and you let them go?!".

Benefit: The Rachni are going to help you.
Consequence: The Krogan are bitter against you.
Cameo: You get people mentioning it.

Repeat with pretty much every decision in the game.

This way, everybody gets different content and there's no right or wrong decision.

Silly question, but why would the Krogan care? They also busted their asses off trying to conquer everyone else, and we are letting everyone else live. The Genophage is a far greater hotbutton issue for the Krogan than the Rachni.

In the current system, Paragons recieve benefits, no consequences and extra content while Renegades get no benefits, consequences and no content.

Right now, what we have is:

Spare the Rachni Queen.
Benefit: The Rachni are going to help you.
Consequence: None for now.
Cameo: You get the Rachni Queen's asari lady to talk with you.

Kill the Rachni Queen.
Benefit: None.
Consequence: The Rachni are dead.
Cameo: None.

Which is heavily biased in regard of the paragon player, in addition to the dialogue that outright scolds Renegades for their decisions and praises Paragons for how brilliant they are (ME2 epilogue) and how the magazines are calling Renegades idiots... we're worried it'll be the same in ME3.

How is that 'heavily' biased towards anyone? One cameo? And we don't know all the results yet. You reprogram the heretics instead of just killing them and maybe they convince the entire Geth navy to side with the Reapers for all we know.

And you know the sad part? If the Rachni did turn out hostile, the renegades would be complaining that the paragons get an extra fight. They want it both ways.

Meanwhile, if you save the Council sure you get an extra scene, but it is of the Council thumbing their nose at you. Is that really a paragon reward or a paragon punishment?

[Rip504]

Say I spared the Queen. I never made a public annoucement,I told the reporter I blew the hot labs.
The Alien council also knows.And didn't seem extremely happy. I never saw the council publicly annouce it. There is a news clip( in ME2 if you save the Queen) stating there was a convoy matching Rachni design spotted. A rumor the Galaxy doesn't know,how can they comment on it? You will gain races loyalty in ME3. Killing a Rachni queen and gaining Krogan loyalty is cheap.
You chose to kill the Queen,commit genocide,you deserve nothing. Why is that so hard to see? My Renagade Shepard spared the Queen in one of my playthroughs. Now my Renagade Shepard has this Queen on my side. You don't like the outcome of your choices,change them. I say the outcomes reflect the choice well.Who displays hate or dislike for Shepard solely based on Paragon/Renagade ? As I said before I kill to be done with them,why mention it in ME2?
Some random person standing there:You know they found Fist dead. (Paragon Shep always kills Fist) I truely don't want to hear from Fist again. Most of these dead people have nothing to do with Reapers and ME3. And we still don't know the true outcome of freeing the Rachni Queen.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

There is no dilemma! There can be a bad consequence for SHEPARD that still provides additional content for the PLAYER!

The problem with Renegade choices is that when you import them you often wind up with nothing. It isn't a disaster, it isn't a success. Just nothing happens. This spoils the point of importing in the first place. Like I just said.

Now for story reasons Paragon decisions always having positive effects for Shepard is annoying, yeah, but it is much less of an issue than the LACK OF CONTENT.

If, say, freeing the rachni queen had caused them to attack in ME2, forcing you to do a mission where you fight rachni, that would be a bad thing for Shepard, the character. However the player would benefit with an additional mission to play, meaning more experience points and maybe an additional upgrade. You can reward the player no matter how their decision affects the game world.

Caps and underlining don't make your arguement any stronger. Your Rachni example doesn't seem to make a lot of sense... you want paragons to be 'rewarded' with extra encounter(s) for freeing the Rachni? So far the only 'reward' is a brief cameo. There is some suggestion that they might be allies in ME3 but that doesn't mean some renegade decisions won't turn out better.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Those small cameo appearances do matter though. At least to some people, myself among them. I didn't mind not hearing about Fist ever again, but for every decision to kill someone/something to automatically result in less content in the next game? Even if its just a super short mission like the ones Gianna Parasini or Shiala give you. Why not have some dude out for revenge who confronts you during one of the missions for killing someone? All it is is an acknowledgement of our choices, and roughly the same amount of game content.

[Rip504]

Quit assuming the entire galaxy knows Shepard's every movement and choice made.This is not true. The galaxy knows Shepard as the first Human Spectre. Shiala,Gianni,and the Rachni know Shepard personly. That is different.Most of the galaxy doesn't even know who killed those randoms. You would think things like that are kept secret for the reason you are stating. Some random looking for revenge. Plus who wants revenge?
I need examples. I have yet to see anything worth being ME.

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mai 2011 - 04:41 .

[Dave of Canada]

Moiaussi wrote...

Silly question, but why would the Krogan care? They also busted their asses off trying to conquer everyone else, and we are letting everyone else live. The Genophage is a far greater hotbutton issue for the Krogan than the Rachni.

The Rachni Wars were their rise to power, when they became feared by the galaxy and why the Genophage was undone. Sparing the Rachni would probably hurt their pride or morale. While they do hold bitterness over the rest of the galaxy, I imagine Shepard undoing what they accomplished would probably create some tension.

The Genophage is more their problem, I won't be denying that, but that's what their dealing with in Mass Effect 3. The choice of killing the Rachni Queen might make it easier to reason with the Krogan due to them respecting Shepard, the Paragon player on the other hand has to handle with more bitter Krogan who'll refuse to speak with them.

That way, both sides have their benefits and consequences. Paragons ride around with Rachni ships while Renegades have an easier time to probably cool down / recruit the Krogan.

And we don't know all the results yet.

Except Paragons recieved a cameo in ME2 (while we renegades recieved none) and we know they'll help you in ME3 (help we won't have), it's also likely that Renegades will still be fighting Rachni Husks (Cerberus) regardless of how they handled the situation in ME1.

You reprogram the heretics instead of just killing them and maybe they convince the entire Geth navy to side with the Reapers for all we know.

Considering the Geth / Quarian war plays a part in the story, I doubt they'd suddenly have all the Geth suddenly side with the Reapers thereby removing one of the main goals of the game.

And you know the sad part? If the Rachni did turn out hostile, the renegades would be complaining that the paragons get an extra fight. They want it both ways.

While I disagree with those people, I understand where they come from. It's still extra content, content the other side doesn't have. They'd rather have everybody be angry and yell at them than have nothing for their decisions.

Meanwhile, if you save the Council sure you get an extra scene, but it is of the Council thumbing their nose at you. Is that really a paragon reward or a paragon punishment?

While they might be thumbing their nose at you, it's still a reward because your decision has added an extra scene and influences how some things happen (Spectre status). 

It's one of those decisions that is almost okay for the Renegade player, the Councilor Udina never giving you spectre status if Council is dead or Citadel hating you makes sense, it's just bothersome/frustrating that they couldn't be bothered showing the new Council and how not one person hates Paragon Shepard for his decision (aliens are understandable, though I expected more ire from the Alliance).

Had they balanced everything out, you could say that the Council not believing you was the consequence of the Paragon decision but the Renegade council does the exact same thing and we don't even get a scene.

[NoSoyBueno]

Moiaussi, your dismissive tone is exactly what I expected, and why I didn't bother putting examples. There are cases where being renegade costs you credits, experience, dialogue options, and even renegade points - like with Conrad Verner or Gianna Parasini, as well as the aforementioned case in Jack's recruitment regarding the prisoner beating.

So, I have a better idea - instead of me giving examples to you, you review every last one of the dialogues and interactions of ME1&2 in detail right now, and come back and report your findings. I will await your return, and dismiss it with something along the lines of 'no, you missed the point'.

-NSB

Modifié par NoSoyBueno, 24 mai 2011 - 04:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Rip504 wrote...

The Alien council also knows.And didn't seem extremely happy. I never saw the council publicly annouce it. There is a news clip( in ME2 if you save the Queen) stating there was a convoy matching Rachni design spotted. A rumor the Galaxy doesn't know,how can they comment on it?

Random scientist from the laboratory shows up in the same spot as the random Asari on Illium, he remembers you for killing the Rachni Queen. BAM, cameo for the Renegade decision is done.

Wrex could also have easily told the Krogan about the Rachni Queen.
If Wrex died, Wreav heard it from Wrex before Virmire?

You will gain races loyalty in ME3. Killing a Rachni queen and gaining Krogan loyalty is cheap.

Just like how the Paragon pretty much has the Council races loyal to him after saving the Council or has the Rachni on their side?

You chose to kill the Queen,commit genocide,you deserve nothing.

You make it seem the decision was:
"Spare the innocent queen."
or
"Kill the innocent queen."

It wasn't that simple.

My Renagade Shepard spared the Queen in one of my playthroughs. Now my Renagade Shepard has this Queen on my side. You don't like the outcome of your choices,change them.

Wonderful logic.
Stop arguing for equality and just play Paragon?

I say the outcomes reflect the choice well.Who displays hate or dislike for Shepard solely based on Paragon/Renagade ?

The Citadel, the Council, the squad... the list goes on?

As I said before I kill to be done with them,why mention it in ME2?

Because it isn't that simple?

Some random person standing there:You know they found Fist dead. (Paragon Shep always kills Fist) I truely don't want to hear from Fist again. Most of these dead people have nothing to do with Reapers and ME3.

So you're telling me you'd rather have nothing than more content?

And we still don't know the true outcome of freeing the Rachni Queen.

Except we already know they'll be allies?