904 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

BW could have easily added Captain Ventralis, Zev Cohen or Hal Olar as replacement cameos for the "Rachni Ambassador" if the Queen is dead.

[Fatso8686]

Mykel54 wrote...

I´m hoping that letting the Rachni go will make them be indoctrinated by the reapers, unless at some point shepard intervenes to save them in place of X race. That would make the choice is still valid (you get the rachni if you help them) but by doing that you lose the help of other race. Here´s hoping that ME3 makes Paragons suffer the cost of sticking to their morals.

People like you are comically niave.  How can you say that you want paragons to suffer in ME3?  Paragons or renegades do not need to suffer in ME3, they just need to feel the effect, whether that effect is positive or negative, in ME3.  Some things like saving the Rachni might come back and bite renegades in the butt when you don't have the extra help for the final fight.  Who knows, maybe the Rachni have some crazy ships that own the reaper ships.

[Bigdoser]

Rip504 wrote...

Say I spared the Queen. I never made a public annoucement,I told the reporter I blew the hot labs.
The Alien council also knows.And didn't seem extremely happy. I never saw the council publicly annouce it. There is a news clip( in ME2 if you save the Queen) stating there was a convoy matching Rachni design spotted. A rumor the Galaxy doesn't know,how can they comment on it? You will gain races loyalty in ME3. Killing a Rachni queen and gaining Krogan loyalty is cheap.
You chose to kill the Queen,commit genocide,you deserve nothing. Why is that so hard to see? My Renagade Shepard spared the Queen in one of my playthroughs. Now my Renagade Shepard has this Queen on my side. You don't like the outcome of your choices,change them. I say the outcomes reflect the choice well.Who displays hate or dislike for Shepard solely based on Paragon/Renagade ? As I said before I kill to be done with them,why mention it in ME2?
Some random person standing there:You know they found Fist dead. (Paragon Shep always kills Fist) I truely don't want to hear from Fist again. Most of these dead people have nothing to do with Reapers and ME3. And we still don't know the true outcome of freeing the Rachni Queen.

THE LOGIC IT BURNSSSS.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

There is no dilemma! There can be a bad consequence for SHEPARD that still provides additional content for the PLAYER!

The problem with Renegade choices is that when you import them you often wind up with nothing. It isn't a disaster, it isn't a success. Just nothing happens. This spoils the point of importing in the first place. Like I just said.

Now for story reasons Paragon decisions always having positive effects for Shepard is annoying, yeah, but it is much less of an issue than the LACK OF CONTENT.

If, say, freeing the rachni queen had caused them to attack in ME2, forcing you to do a mission where you fight rachni, that would be a bad thing for Shepard, the character. However the player would benefit with an additional mission to play, meaning more experience points and maybe an additional upgrade. You can reward the player no matter how their decision affects the game world.

Nuff said.  People should take time to read this and understand the arguements on the table. 

Should Paragons be punished for always choosing the "ideal" response?  It'd be more realistic, but isn't necessary.  Some people want more of a fairy tale ending... can't blame them (everyone wants a fairy tale ending to some extent, we all generally want to win this war against the Reapers).  But there should be "something" for those who play more realistically (like a more realistic result... where something substantial happens).

Heck I'm a Paragon player and I'm saying this, lol.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 24 mai 2011 - 07:42 .

[Moiaussi]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Rachni Wars were their rise to power, when they became feared by the galaxy and why the Genophage was undone. Sparing the Rachni would probably hurt their pride or morale. While they do hold bitterness over the rest of the galaxy, I imagine Shepard undoing what they accomplished would probably create some tension.

The Genophage is more their problem, I won't be denying that, but that's what their dealing with in Mass Effect 3. The choice of killing the Rachni Queen might make it easier to reason with the Krogan due to them respecting Shepard, the Paragon player on the other hand has to handle with more bitter Krogan who'll refuse to speak with them.

That way, both sides have their benefits and consequences. Paragons ride around with Rachni ships while Renegades have an easier time to probably cool down / recruit the Krogan.

Your facts are somewhat off. They were victorious against the Rachni, were treated as heroes and granted worlds. Then they were victorious against everyone else in the Krogan Rebellion (a separate event) and got hit with the Genophage.

In other words the genophage didn't exist yet when they were sic'd on the Rachni.

Note that Shepard had the option of keeping the Genophage research too. Sparing the Rachni could be used by the Krogan as an arguement to end it. If the Rachni don't exist, they have no such arguement. They are much more likely to see kinship with the Rachni than anamosity in the same way that they respect thresher maws.

Except Paragons recieved a cameo in ME2 (while we renegades recieved none) and we know they'll help you in ME3 (help we won't have), it's also likely that Renegades will still be fighting Rachni Husks (Cerberus) regardless of how they handled the situation in ME1.

My point is that there could well be other situations that we don't know about yet.

Considering the Geth / Quarian war plays a part in the story, I doubt they'd suddenly have all the Geth suddenly side with the Reapers thereby removing one of the main goals of the game.

If the Rachni can be guaranteed friendly, then the Geth can be guaranteed hostile. You could even still have Quarian relations in there, except you would be helping them fight the Geth instead of reconciling. You would end up down both fleets, all for a decision deemed 'Paragon,' and if you didn't help the Quarians in ME3, you would not only have neither fleet helping, you would have the Geth as an additional enemy. Instead of up two fleets, you would be down one fleet, a spread of 3.

Not saying it will end up that way... it could only end up a partial rebellion, just enough to keep the Geth and/or Quarians out of the war without one or both providing benefits.

My point is that there are a lot of ways that can go, and if the Rachni absolutely favour one side it would be foolish to assume that the Geth (or some other faction) couldn't favour the other.

While I disagree with those people, I understand where they come from. It's still extra content, content the other side doesn't have. They'd rather have everybody be angry and yell at them than have nothing for their decisions.

I understand their arguement, but it does end up somewhat hypocritical.

While they might be thumbing their nose at you, it's still a reward because your decision has added an extra scene and influences how some things happen (Spectre status). 

Oh come off it. The Spectre status is completely irrelevant and is just as likely to be reinstated in ME3 regardless. There are ZERO scenes where spectre status is an  advantage and the only one I can think of plays out identically with the only change being 'former spectre' in place of 'spectre.'

It's one of those decisions that is almost okay for the Renegade player, the Councilor Udina never giving you spectre status if Council is dead or Citadel hating you makes sense, it's just bothersome/frustrating that they couldn't be bothered showing the new Council and how not one person hates Paragon Shepard for his decision (aliens are understandable, though I expected more ire from the Alliance).

Had they balanced everything out, you could say that the Council not believing you was the consequence of the Paragon decision but the Renegade council does the exact same thing and we don't even get a scene.

The Council not believing you is less of a loss to the renegades because it is mutual. They don't believe in the Council either. The paragons just end up feeling foolish.

And Paragons all had to work with Cerberus in ME2 whether they like it or not, which is argubly a bigger punishment than any. Note I dislike the suggestion that everyone will be forced back away from Cerberus regardless of choice in ME3, too. If renegades end up being able to reconcile with Cerberus in ME3, I'd say they end up ahead on that one. 

Modifié par Moiaussi, 24 mai 2011 - 07:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

crimzontearz wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lack of content? There's a easy solution to that. Stop killing off characters.

That's the logical equivalent of 'if you're complaining, don't play the game,' or even 'stop whining and shut up.'

There's another, more sensible easy solution for the problem of lopsided content, and that's not to make a game with such. 

well uhm...

there is a difference. If you are being a renegade, aside for when renegade just means practical, you are being a borderline sociopathic d****bag who kills first and asks questions later. If you keep killing things off, being a jerk, kicking people while they are down, blowing habitats and saving spacepoerts what do you really think Bioware could do to remind you of such decisions aside for little bits in the news and the occasional person telling "YOU ASS****..you let my father die" or some such thing? Would they be as satisfying as Rana asking for you help for instance?

just out of curiosity what would be your idea on handling such things?

I believe I already mentioned various alternatives...? Otherwise, pick the context. Even a 'I am Roderigo Fist. You killed my father. Prepare to die- oh why are you shooting me the pain!' would be an amusing, shortlived alternative to Fist's cameo. No credits. Not upgrades. No stock options. Just a character in the same spot who reflects back on the choice you made.

In the case of Rana, the most annoying piece about her is that she's a data-dump of relevant information into Okeer and Grunt's creation. Frankly, since that is her main role besides just reappearing, I'd be just as happy to see a datapad with the same information as she gives in the room. If you spare her, cameo to explain Okeer's work for you. If you kill her, you have to read it.


In general, however, killable characters should NOT be the primary method of referring back to major plot-level choices. A large part of why Illium is so aggravating is that it contains three separate plot-choices that were unavoidable in ME1 (the Shiala choice, the Feros Garage Path choice, and the Rachni choice), and yet only one of them is always present, and that's with a nameless colonist. That's just bad format, since there's no reason (besides, potentially, voice actor re-hiring issues) that that should be. Even 'we couldn't bring back the voice actors' is a poor excuse except in cases where a voice actor died, because that sort of carry-over design should have been planned back in ME1, and even other alternatives for ME2 could have been made.

Unavoidable story choices (those that no Shepard can avoid) should not rely on killable-character cameos exclusively, especially when the only Renegade choice is to kill the person in question. There was no Renegade persuade for sparring Rana, or Fist, or Shiala, there was only a binary Paragon spare/Renegade kill. Story choices should always be reflected in a concrete fashion.

The characters that make sense to never appear if you kill them are either side quest characters, and especially characters in which there are other solutions (both Paragon and Renegade) to allow them to live. Alignment-exclusive content (that is, content without an equivalent) should both be rare and selective, and not a reflection of the primary story of the previous games.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 mai 2011 - 03:37 .

[Rip504]

You are asking for a bonus after you killed someone. No that's great logic.

What did the caged Rachni Queen ever do? Nothing,so it is an innocent creature. You chose to kill.

It's not just Paragon/Renegade. There is a middle choice also.(Not always) Dave Read carefully. My RENEGADE Shepard saved the Queeen. No my RENEGADE Shepard did not play as a Paragon.My Renegade Shepard made a single choice to let something live. I agree the Renegade/Paragon can be a little extreme,but when we are talking about life and Death it's pretty obvious. Let Live=Good. Kill=Bad Just because you play as a Renegade does not mean all your choices have to be red!.

Dean,I agree with the data pad issue.There could have deff been a datapad there,but it wouldn't be because you killed someone,no that someone is dead. That datapad would just happen to be there. You removed a character,now you want a bonus for it? Bonus You got away with cold blooded murder in some cases.

And why bring items from ME1 that were resolved in ME1? Fist you kill him,(w.e. your reason.)Undina says something about a fire fight. The end. You kill Shiala for helping the Thorian. The End. Shepard doesn't kill Gianni the Salarian does. No need to mention this to Shepard as Noveria is not even part of ME2, and has nothing to do with Shepard. You chose to kill the Rachni for w.e. reason. The End. (How many times do we talk about the dead,or DoDo birds?)
Now the Council. If you decide to let the council die,the new council owes you nothing. You reward is an all human council.(That's implied in ME2,just as the Rachni are implied.) You still talk to Udina..(Shepard an x Spectre,X Commander working with Cerberus. They refuse you because you are not worth the time.Civilians can't demand to see the council. Your Choice is reflected.) I still don't understand why you are asking for content that was resovled in ME1 to be part of ME2.

You save Gianni,she owes you a beer. Not resolved. You save Shiala. She continues to help the colony.(In ME2 if she is alive she is helping the colony. If dead it's someone else.) So both paragon and Renagade get something for that choice.Rana honestly who cares? Rachni live-what are they doing now. Not resolved. The Alien Council. Feels like Shepard saved their lives at the cost of human lives. They feel they owe Shepard.
Maybe no one cares what Happen to Fist(no Family,no friends.),but you. Shiala chose her own path,and Gianni was an undercover cop. Death comes with the job.

You shouldn't be rewarded for murder. What kind of example does this set? I'm sorry you have trouble accepting that death is final and the end of something,but it's true.
Exception bad story writing for Shepard in ME2.
2 years have passed,the dead have been forgotten. That's why my name is RIP,because I hold the memory of the dead with me.

Major plot events? Shiala,Gianni,Rana,Fist etc, are not major plot events. The Rachni,Council,VS,Wrex are major plots. All are reflected by your choice in ME1 to ME2. Kill Queen=No Queen. Kill Council=Human Council Kill Wrex= Wreav VS= Ash or Kaiden.This sums it up.

I think when you kill something(Bioware created) you deserve nothing.IMO. And we will continue to disagree. I expected exactly what we got.
You feel like "they" got more then "you",when this is untrue. The answer to your story is they are dead. Paragon answers are different,and this upsets you. Gianni,Rana,& Helena Blake are the only extras? Wow 2 mins of space,and now you want 3 renagade side missions.Who's being unreasonable? Bioware or you? Plus I play many playthroughs,so I don't feel like I'm missing out on any content.

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Rip504 wrote...

You are asking for a bonus after you killed someone. No that's great logic.

What did the caged Rachni Queen ever do? Nothing,so it is an innocent creature. You chose to kill.

And since you've kindly mistaken a series of points and turned them into an argument that only benign morality should have player content, you've rather succinctly illustrated why you're incapable of addressing the argument raised, and why it's meaningless to converse with you.

Have a nice day.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 mai 2011 - 10:10 .

[grievous04]

A lot of people aren't getting the idea of this thread. Paragons have a LOT ofrewards and allies going into ME3. The Rachni, Quarians, the Geth, the Krogan, and many others. What do the Renagades have? Nothing other than a Collector Base that will make Cerberus stronger.

I think both allignments should be equal. However, from the way it is going, the Renagades are screwed, and the Paragons are set.

That's why I think a few of the Paragon's decisions should backfire on them. Mainly the Rachni Queen. Not only do you have Rachni husks to fight, but they were easily turned by the Reapers before, and it should happen again.

Another, why not have the Blue Suns be Reaper acolytes. Paragins spared Vido, so the Blue Suns will still be kicking.

[alx119]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

You are asking for a bonus after you killed someone. No that's great logic.

What did the caged Rachni Queen ever do? Nothing,so it is an innocent creature. You chose to kill.

And since you've kindly mistaken a series of points and turned them into an argument that only benign morality should have player content, you've rather succinctly illustrated why you're incapable of addressing the argument raised, and why it's meaningless to converse with you.

Have a nice day.

I'm sorry but I've read both your post and his, and I believe he understood your point quite well, and has rebated it as well. He has a point, death is finite.

As he says, you're asking for a reward, "content" that was created for characters you did not kill in the first ME, look at the example of Rana, she does tell you quite some juicy information about Okeer's project, IF she is still alive... And you want a datapad, that's like "then why did i save her?". You're also kind of asking to not reward Paragons, or to take it from them, if you decided to save her, then you get her in the next game, if you don't, well it was your decision, I think you should deal with it. Regret won't do much for you.

The same with the example you've put of Illium, all those characters were characters you let live in the first one, is only logical that they'd still be living in the second one. If you killed them, or didn't help them, well, why they'd be there? A random colonist is your reward. 

Rewarding negative actions doesn't sound very logical, nor acceptable.

[alx119]

grievous04 wrote...

A lot of people aren't getting the idea of this thread. Paragons have a LOT ofrewards and allies going into ME3. The Rachni, Quarians, the Geth, the Krogan, and many others. What do the Renagades have? Nothing other than a Collector Base that will make Cerberus stronger.

I think both allignments should be equal. However, from the way it is going, the Renagades are screwed, and the Paragons are set.

That's why I think a few of the Paragon's decisions should backfire on them. Mainly the Rachni Queen. Not only do you have Rachni husks to fight, but they were easily turned by the Reapers before, and it should happen again.

Another, why not have the Blue Suns be Reaper acolytes. Paragins spared Vido, so the Blue Suns will still be kicking.

Again... WHY should you get allies if you were renegade? Why should you get any kind of help, if you decided to give your backs to all of those potential allies in the first games? 

I vouch for equality, but not for injustice. If you are a dick to people, people won't like you, less likely they'll follow you, nor help you.
Why would they front the reapers as a favor to you, if you, I don't know, killed the whole council? Remember the Reapers are kind of a big deal.
And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't do any favors to someone that has punched me :1

[Someone With Mass]

Renegades can probably draw the old "if you don't help, we will all die" card in ME3.

[alx119]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Renegades can probably draw the old "if you don't help, we will all die" card in ME3.

Posible idea, yup.
And now that you mention it, it'd be interesting if they had to do missions to get them allies, or to get TO them since the whole galaxy will be crawling with Reapers.
That'd be quite interesting, and rewarding in a justful way. You need them, well, sweat to get them now XD 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Too many people are failing to grasp that most renegade players simply want their choices to actually be acknowlegded and recieve extra content just like the paragons do.

But most also would not mind seeing the "paragon vs renegade" dillema rebalanced so it actually has some weight to it.

[Dean_the_Young]

alx119 wrote...

Again... WHY should you get allies if you were renegade? Why should you get any kind of help, if you decided to give your backs to all of those potential allies in the first games?

Two reasons, really:

-Nations don't ally because they like eachother. They ally because of common interests. Renegades have plenty of common interest overlaps, ranging from controlling the Council to nixing some very dangerous threats to the galaxy.

-Nearly every option of kill someone in the Mass Effect universe isn't on the basis of refusing a potential ally, but stopping a potential threat. That only one (minor) one of those people ever turns out to be anything but a well-intentioned, sympathetic character eager to help is a flaw of the franchise, not the logic.

I vouch for equality, but not for injustice. If you are a dick to people, people won't like you, less likely they'll follow you, nor help you.

Depends on the context. The military is famous as a setting where negative reinforcement does wonders, and in the right manner can inspire and drive men to follow the Sergants anywhere.

Love and kindness are not synonymous with leadership. A kind person is a kind person: no more, no less.

Why would they front the reapers as a favor to you, if you, I don't know, killed the whole council? Remember the Reapers are kind of a big deal.

Because if they don't, they'll die. And no Renegade has ever killed the Council: that was the Reapers and their allies.

And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't do any favors to someone that has punched me :1

Sure you would. You regularly, every year of your life, do things for people who have wronged you, harmed you, and taken advantage of you. If you're a soldier, like Shepard, your entire job is based around fighting and risking death on the behalf of people who are opposed to you.

[skcih-deraj]

Well with Cerberus turning on us (you are a silly person if you didn't see that comming, regardless of allignment.) I'd like to put something out there that I don't think has been mentioned...

Remember when paragons did away with that cerberus data on their bases and how renegades gave it to the Shadow Broker in ME1? As of Lair of the shadow broker... who is the new broker and for renegades that cry like I see a lot of them doing this is what I call one of those "potential rewards" that you'd get becuase paragons held on to it and gave it to the Alliance.

Yes I see how it could work out the same for paragons, but does the Alliacne really have time (seeing as the Reapers are comming) to give it to Shepard? Or better yet, why wouldn't have the Illusive man have taken it back as Cerberus is almost everywhere, including inside of the Alliance?

[Someone With Mass]

Lizardviking wrote...

Too many people are failing to grasp that most renegade players simply want their choices to actually be acknowlegded and recieve extra content just like the paragons do.

But most also would not mind seeing the "paragon vs renegade" dillema rebalanced so it actually has some weight to it.

I can see that. Many of the Renegade choices should be acknowledged, like the Collector base and so on.

I don't think they should recieve some kind of reward for killing everyone they can kill. Maybe for some people that could be potential threats in ME3, but not everyone. That would negate the consequences of killing a character in the first place. 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Someone With Mass wrote...
I can see that. Many of the Renegade choices should be acknowledged, like the Collector base and so on.

I don't think they should recieve some kind of reward for killing everyone they can kill. Maybe for some people that could be potential threats in ME3, but not everyone. That would negate the consequences of killing a character in the first place. 

But then why is there such a huge opposition to having renegade getting content just paragon?

Yeah. Not all should be replaced of course. But there is a huge number of places where a logical alternative could have been placed in case the other got killed!

Killed fist? Have Baily say a line about reduced crime in the wards!

Killed the Racni queen? Have a krogan who knew about the events shake your hand/Meet someone from peak 15!

Killed the council? Meet the new council instead!

The list goes on and on.

"EDIT"

It also still remains that giving the current trend. There is so little backlash to any of the major paragon choices that any drama regarding choices is sucked out. Don't give us a two-moral-paths if there is abseloutly no reason to pick one of them.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 24 mai 2011 - 10:50 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Or, on the other hand, different types of rewards, depending on context. 'Equivalent' in a design format doesn't mean 'equivalent' in gameplay: no one is arguing that the Renegades should get an equivalent army to the Rachni if you killed them, after all.


If (IF!) you wanted all sides to get some sort of reward/prize afterwards, different scales or types could provide another form of balance. For example, take a hypothetical Rachni scenario.

If you Paragon saved the Rachni, in ME2 you get to talk to the Rachni Ambassador. While the Rachni Ambassador really doesn't have much to give you here and now, besides thanks, the Rachni themselves become a Major Ally in ME3. A freely available ally, the contribution of the Rachni can save millions, billions, in the Reaper War. But in ME2, no prize for you.

If you did Renegade, someone else can stand in the place of the Rachni. A scientist, a Krogan, anyone. They give their own 'thanks for killing the Rachni' bit (and since the Rachni extinction is public knowledge according to broadcasts, this isn't hard to justify). While no reward or army will be forthcoming in ME3, a small something ONLY IN ME2 might be balanced: credits, minerals, maybe a tech upgrade. Nothing grand, nothing decisive, and only a minor (if convenient) boon ONLY IN ME2. (Or, if you wanted, the upgrade/money could be given during ME3.)

This would be a case of design balance in which both sides get rewards. The rewards aren't necessarily balanced in quality, what with one helping some battles go faster and the other allowing for major changes in the epilogue/final battle, but then that's for this choice. Both get not only recognition of their choices, but an appropriate, plausible consequence to reflect it as well.

[alx119]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Two reasons, really:

-Nations don't ally because they like eachother. They ally because of common interests. Renegades have plenty of common interest overlaps, ranging from controlling the Council to nixing some very dangerous threats to the galaxy.

-Nearly every option of kill someone in the Mass Effect universe isn't on the basis of refusing a potential ally, but stopping a potential threat. That only one (minor) one of those people ever turns out to be anything but a well-intentioned, sympathetic character eager to help is a flaw of the franchise, not the logic.

I was not talking about nations, those are bound to ally, but it'd happen with or withOUT Shepard, if an overwhelming enemy is going to thread all of you, you're going to join forces, no matter who's the hero.
But, if you killed an entire potential nation, excuse me if they can't help you, look at the Rachni. And, making friends pays of, if you have been diplomatic and kind to certain people, they could be of help to you, perhaps not "nation-wide" but as in resource-like, an example, Shiala, and the favors you've done for her, perhaps she can bring you help in ME3 as a personal favor to you, using resources that Zhu's Hope needed, but they decided to give it to you, as a thanks for saving them. And you can't say, oh but they'd give it to you cause of the reapers, because precisely cause of the reapers, they wouldn't give you ****, they need them themselves, and do not trust you.

Depends on the context. The military is famous as a setting where negative reinforcement does wonders, and in the right manner can inspire and drive men to follow the Sergants anywhere.

Love and kindness are not synonymous with leadership. A kind person is a kind person: no more, no less.

The military is also famous to be hated for most of civilians, especially other countries. You can be firm with your men and gain their loyalty, but that doesn't grant you that the rest of the world will follow you.

Kindness may not work for military, but it does work for the day a day person.

Because if they don't, they'll die. And no Renegade has ever killed the Council: that was the Reapers and their allies.

That's what I was saying, it'd be interesting to see them not having other choice but to join forces with you, or, to be stubborn, and you needing to "chase them down" so they can help you.
But as for the kind of their hearts? They'll bunker and protect themselves before helping someone who they do not trust, and only see as a menace.
The council was killed by the reapers, but you had your chance to save them, that doesn't make you look good towards people in general.

Sure you would. You regularly, every year of your life, do things for people who have wronged you, harmed you, and taken advantage of you. If you're a soldier, like Shepard, your entire job is based around fighting and risking death on the behalf of people who are opposed to you.

Why thanks for comparing me to Shepard XD Although I must say I'm not a soldier, I'm just a normal civilian, who looks nothing but to live in peace, I thank all those soldiers who fights for my freedom to live, but I still wouldn't do anything for someone who has hurt me. Of course, when your life is at stake, you do anything. But if you're dead to begin with, you hardly will do anything :X

[Rip504]

No arguement Dean,really use your brain. The first line was a joke. The second was a fact. The arguement Raised? ."Seems like B*tching and complaining for no reason to me."About minor choices at that. Your opinion not Bioware's. Spitting opinions as facts will never work with me. Back them up. Like these opinions. Dean Renegade Shepard has no control over the council. Where did you get that? They refuse to even speak to you. Great control. The Rachni extinction is public knowledge. 1,000 years ago or Shepard killing the Rachni Queen. If you mean Shepard killing the Rachni Queen is public knowledge on a broadcast 2 years later. Justify it,with a post or link. Plus all major choices are acknowledge in ME2. You are simply upset with minor things being different for Paragons. You want an e-mail or a new random character to acknowledge your murder. This is pointless to me. Or maybe no one cares you killed the Rachni,thats why there is no reward. O wait,that's what happen!

Maybe I am missing something,but my Shepard(Paragon) has No allies vs the Reapers yet. I thought we get our Allies in ME3. The majority of senteint life still think the Reapers are a myth.

You assume the Rachni will be allies,and help you defeat the Reapers with their raw power.. Ever assume you could be wrong?

Why were the Rachni the only indoctrinated race? Maybe they are really hostile or maybe we(Shepard) will find Reaper tech either on or close to the original Rachni homeworld. If the Rachni are alive,maybe they will help you retreive it,or maybe just talk to you.But A Renagade Rachniless Shepard can still retreive the Reaper tech. It could honestly be nothing more then that. It's been a little over 2 years. Really how much support could the Rachni give,in a full fledge war against the Reapers?

Modifié par Rip504, 24 mai 2011 - 11:28 .

[Thrombin]

I would have thought Renegades are Renegades because they like the no-nonsense ruthlessness of the Renegade choices. For a lot of people it's more fun. I'm not even sure if the kind of warm, fuzzy, "thank you for saving me you've turned my life around" sort of encounters with previously saved individuals is something that Renegade players would actually want.

Renegades are rewarded by a more kick-*ss style of game where people who get in their way are blasted without mercy and Paragons are rewarded by a warm fuzzy glow in seeing people they've saved still around. It's just a style of play.Renegades get the satisfaction of killing people and Paragons get the satisfaction of saving people. Each to their own.

[Dean_the_Young]

alx119 wrote...

I was not talking about nations, those are bound to ally, but it'd happen with or withOUT Shepard, if an overwhelming enemy is going to thread all of you, you're going to join forces, no matter who's the hero.
But, if you killed an entire potential nation, excuse me if they can't help you, look at the Rachni. And, making friends pays of, if you have been diplomatic and kind to certain people, they could be of help to you, perhaps not "nation-wide" but as in resource-like, an example, Shiala, and the favors you've done for her, perhaps she can bring you help in ME3 as a personal favor to you, using resources that Zhu's Hope needed, but they decided to give it to you, as a thanks for saving them. And you can't say, oh but they'd give it to you cause of the reapers, because precisely cause of the reapers, they wouldn't give you ****, they need them themselves, and do not trust you.

Your argument is amorphous and ambiguous. Make up your mind: are we addressing why Renegades can't expect dead people to contribute, or are we addressing why Renegades can't expect people they (may or may not) have been dicks to will contribute?

'Being nice' is not and never has been the same as 'making friends', nor have you considered the other aspect in the choice context: that they people you kill aren't prospective allies, but potent potential foes. At which point, them surviving just means they come to knife you in the front or back.

Nor, mind you, does your counter-argument about how they'll need their own resources to fight for themselves become any less true if you were nice to them before. Trust or not, it still remains the bear and dog delimma.

In the context of Shepard's quest to fight the Reapers, Earth is the only plausible decisive place to fight the Reapers. It is, quite literally, the only place they've shown any inclination or desire to fight over and defend once they beat it. For every other planet in the galaxy, the Reapers have no basis to stick around for any decisive fleet battle that starts turning against them. Only Earth, and only in terms of the Reapers interest in Humans, gives any of the galaxy a basis for hoping to be able to engage the Reapers in any sort of battle on the Organic's terms. You go to Earth, you'll find Reapers to kill. Anywhere else? You can only find them so long as they care to stick around.

The military is also famous to be hated for most of civilians, especially other countries. You can be firm with your men and gain their loyalty, but that doesn't grant you that the rest of the world will follow you.

History would like a word with you. Coercision, fear, and less than gentle treatment have been the dominant diplomatic traits for enforcing alliances and common cause for all of human history. Kindness and good intentions have not for any extended period of time.

Kindness may not work for military, but it does work for the day a day person.

Day to day people don't have life-or-death decisions with the lives of millions at stake.

Generosity at scale isn't a survival trait. Civilizations don't grow by dying for others.

But as for the kind of their hearts? They'll bunker and protect themselves before helping someone who they do not trust, and only see as a menace.
The council was killed by the reapers, but you had your chance to save them, that doesn't make you look good towards people in general.

That's a certaintude only possible by metagaming. No certainly of knowledge of the possible salvation of the Council had the 5th Fleet moved in exists, while the very real presence of the Reapers now just underscores how necessary the Alliance focusing on Sovereign may have been.

The other races can't know that there was any viable alternate reality in which the Council was saved and Sovereign destroyed. Blaming the Humans for the death of the Council in the face of the Reapers (who actually killed the Council) is, at it's heart, foolish.

Why thanks for comparing me to Shepard XD Although I must say I'm not a soldier, I'm just a normal civilian, who looks nothing but to live in peace, I thank all those soldiers who fights for my freedom to live, but I still wouldn't do anything for someone who has hurt me. Of course, when your life is at stake, you do anything. But if you're dead to begin with, you hardly will do anything :X

Well, I suppose I can't argue like that. If your Shepard doesn't think like a soldier... well, so then he/she doesn't, and more's the pity. Now, personally, I don't see the mindset of a civilian as a virtue for a soldier, but-

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 mai 2011 - 11:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Rip504 wrote...

No arguement Dean,really use your brain. The first line was a joke. The second was a fact. The arguement Raised? ."Seems like B*tching and complaining for no reason to me."About minor choices at that. Your opinion not Bioware's. Spitting opinions as facts will never work with me. Back them up. Like these opinions. Dean Renegade Shepard has no control over the council. Where did you get that? They refuse to even speak to you. Great control. The Rachni extinction is public knowledge. 1,000 years ago or Shepard killing the Rachni Queen.

Oh, hey, it's that rambling person who can't quote! Or be coherent worth beans, though quoting might help with that. But, of course, that's an opinion... and we know how those nasty things have no track with you!

If you mean Shepard killing the Rachni Queen is public knowledge on a broadcast 2 years later. Justify it,with a post or link.

It's a news broadcast. While sparing the Rachni gives a broadcast about the appearance of Rachni Ships, the alternative news story is about ExoGeni (or was it Binary Helix? I never remember) admitting that the Noveria incident was re-created Rachni, but that they were put down.

I'll leave it to you to find a link because, well, it's not that hard for you to learn something on your own.

Plus all major choices are acknowledge in ME2. You are simply upset with minor things being different for Paragons. You want an e-mail or a new random character to acknowledge your murder. This is pointless to me. Or maybe no one cares you killed the Rachni,thats why there is no reward. O wait,that's what happen!

Alas, here are some story choices that are not acknowledged: killing Shiala, killing Fist, killing Rana, and killing Giana Parsini.

No one makes any mention of them. There is no recognition of a decision, only the absence of a character when many other characters who did not die also did not return.

Maybe I am missing something,but my Shepard(Paragon) has No allies vs the Reapers yet. I thought we get our Allies in ME3. The majority of senteint life still think the Reapers are a myth.

I will bow to your inability to decipher blatant foreshadowing, then.

You assume the Rachni will be allies,and help you defeat the Reapers with their raw power.. Ever assume you could be wrong?

Sure. I also assume I could be right. Since the Rachni ambassador talks about the Rachni promising to aid Shepard in the future, the Rachni lore emphasizes the credibility of them rebuilding to a power being able to help you, news reports appear that the Rachni have ships, and Mass Effect 3 has already been said to revolve around gathering allies to help defend Earth... far more foreshadowing and buildup supports me than works against me.

Why were the Rachni the only indoctrinated race? Maybe they are really hostile or maybe we(Shepard) will find Reaper tech either on or close to the original Rachni homeworld. If the Rachni are alive,maybe they will help you retreive it,or maybe just talk to you.But A Renagade Rachniless Shepard can still retreive the Reaper tech. It could honestly be nothing more then that. It's been a little over 2 years. Really how much support could the Rachni give,in a full fledge war against the Reapers?

And maybe you're a little pink elephant typing with your trunk.

Now, is there anything to support such a claim? Well, not really. And there's a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest that you're a human, not too unlike myself, making do by typing with your fingers. Again, not unlike myself. Now, I don't need full disproof that you are not, in fact, a little pink elephant to be well based in the working assumption that you are not... whatever you aren't.

Now, how much support could a race that can colonize a world within weeks, go from 'lone, naked egg-layer' to 'space faring species capable of fighting mass-effect tech pirates' in the course of two years provide to a decisive battle around a single planet? Quite a lot, by the lore of things.

[Golden Owl]

I have just replayed ME1 and am now contesting some renegade claims, as to them getting less content...I was playing a femShep with a looser moral code than my canon manShep.....One renegade response leads to sleeping with Shai'ira (extra content...rather good one too)....And the extra lolz....loved that line she used on Harkin, "I would rather drink acid, while chewing on razor blades" and Conrad's response to the gun in his face...loved it. :-)....My point being, there are a number of renegades talking about losing extra content, but after playing a few minor renegade choices in ME1 now, I wonder if the renegades are maybe not seeing what you do get....Just a thought.