904 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...


Do we know this to be the case?

Yes.

[Seboist]

Ultai wrote...

Imo the topic should be changed to More consequences for paragons, since they have a severe lack of them atm. Maybe it might change in ME3, but so far it seems the paragon ending will be the disney ending and the renegade will be i'm a jerk for the lulz ending which will be very disappointing.

Sure seems like it, both the renegade endgame options are pointless from a meta perspective.

Sacrifice the Council: No indicator humanity is actually stronger, aliens hate Shepard and the human led council is nowhere to be seen. It's an extremely hollow victory if I ever saw one.

Keep the Collector Base: Cerberus is after you no matter what you did or didn't do. It doesn't matter if you kept it or not, they end up with it's technology regardless.

[Seboist]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Ultai wrote...

Imo the topic should be changed to More consequences for paragons, since they have a severe lack of them atm. Maybe it might change in ME3, but so far it seems the paragon ending will be the disney ending and the renegade will be i'm a jerk for the lulz ending which will be very disappointing.

Sure seems like it, both the renegade endgame options are pointless from a meta perspective.

Sacrifice the Council: No indicator humanity is actually stronger, aliens hate Shepard and the human led council is nowhere to be seen. It's an extremely hollow victory if I ever saw one.

Keep the Collector Base: Cerberus is after you no matter what you did or didn't do. It doesn't matter if you kept it or not, they end up with it's technology regardless.

How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

1. The Retribution book (which is set a year after SM) talks about Cerberus using Collector tech in their experiment(s). The CB's fate is ambigious.

2. If you destroy the base and then do LOTSB the Shadow Broker talks about taking the Normandy's IFF and salvaging the remains, implying they're still useful for something.

Modifié par Seboist, 28 mai 2011 - 03:05 .

[DPSSOC]

thurmanator692 wrote...
How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

I think the novels (haven't read them) suggest that even if you destroy the base Cerberus salavages something useful from it.  Renegades get nothing because Cerberus is out to get you regardless.  That's the worry anyway based on available info.

Personally I'm just worried ME3's Renegade playthrough will be:

Ok Shepard the Reapers are here and you need to gather allies.

Great I'll just contact the other races and...

But the aliens hate you and won't help

Then I'll go to the...

And the Alliance won't help either because of your actions with Cerberus.

I see.  Well I'll...

And the Krogan hate you for destroying the genophage cure

Then I'll...

And the Quarians have gone to war with the Geth

At least I've still got...

And Cerberus has sided with the Reapers.

You know I can bend over if it makes things easier

That's my worst case scenario; which sadly doesn't differ much from my best case scenario but life has taught me to set the bar low.

[Seboist]

DPSSOC wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...
How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

I think the novels (haven't read them) suggest that even if you destroy the base Cerberus salavages something useful from it.  Renegades get nothing because Cerberus is out to get you regardless.  That's the worry anyway based on available info.

Personally I'm just worried ME3's Renegade playthrough will be:

Ok Shepard the Reapers are here and you need to gather allies.

Great I'll just contact the other races and...

But the aliens hate you and won't help

Then I'll go to the...

And the Alliance won't help either because of your actions with Cerberus.

I see.  Well I'll...

And the Krogan hate you for destroying the genophage cure

Then I'll...

And the Quarians have gone to war with the Geth

At least I've still got...

And Cerberus has sided with the Reapers.

You know I can bend over if it makes things easier

That's my worst case scenario; which sadly doesn't differ much from my best case scenario but life has taught me to set the bar low.

If you destroy the genophage data TIM talks about recruiting the Vorcha as a replacement........ but that means they'd be working for Cerberus and they'd be out to get you.

Son of a ****.

[Seboist]

thurmanator692 wrote...

well, Renegades may find it harder to find allies, but i have a feeling that Paragons are going to have a lot more in the way of enemies

I really doubt that. I'm sure we'll all be fighting Rachni Husks regardless of what happened to the Queen for instance.

Modifié par Seboist, 28 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...
How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

I think the novels (haven't read them) suggest that even if you destroy the base Cerberus salavages something useful from it.  Renegades get nothing because Cerberus is out to get you regardless.  That's the worry anyway based on available info.

Personally I'm just worried ME3's Renegade playthrough will be:

Ok Shepard the Reapers are here and you need to gather allies.

Great I'll just contact the other races and...

But the aliens hate you and won't help

Then I'll go to the...

And the Alliance won't help either because of your actions with Cerberus.

I see.  Well I'll...

And the Krogan hate you for destroying the genophage cure

Then I'll...

And the Quarians have gone to war with the Geth

At least I've still got...

And Cerberus has sided with the Reapers.

You know I can bend over if it makes things easier

That's my worst case scenario; which sadly doesn't differ much from my best case scenario but life has taught me to set the bar low.

If you destroy the genophage data TIM talks about recruiting the Vorcha as a replacement........ but that means they'd be working for Cerberus and they'd be out to get you.

Son of a ****.

Really? I can't recall ever reading or hearing that.

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...
How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

I think the novels (haven't read them) suggest that even if you destroy the base Cerberus salavages something useful from it.  Renegades get nothing because Cerberus is out to get you regardless.  That's the worry anyway based on available info.

Personally I'm just worried ME3's Renegade playthrough will be:

Ok Shepard the Reapers are here and you need to gather allies.

Great I'll just contact the other races and...

But the aliens hate you and won't help

Then I'll go to the...

And the Alliance won't help either because of your actions with Cerberus.

I see.  Well I'll...

And the Krogan hate you for destroying the genophage cure

Then I'll...

And the Quarians have gone to war with the Geth

At least I've still got...

And Cerberus has sided with the Reapers.

You know I can bend over if it makes things easier

That's my worst case scenario; which sadly doesn't differ much from my best case scenario but life has taught me to set the bar low.

If you destroy the genophage data TIM talks about recruiting the Vorcha as a replacement........ but that means they'd be working for Cerberus and they'd be out to get you.

Son of a ****.

Really? I can't recall ever reading or hearing that.

He sure does. I'm surprised TIM hasn't thought about recruiting the Vorcha before. They'd likely prefer working for Cerberus than under the Krogans in the Blood Pack.

[DPSSOC]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

well, Renegades may find it harder to find allies, but i have a feeling that Paragons are going to have a lot more in the way of enemies

I really doubt that. I'm sure we'll all be fighting Rachni Husks regardless of what happened to the Queen for instance.

Well, i hope not. I'm tired of Paragon choices lining up just right.

Have we been given any indication (magazine article/tweet/off hand comment) that this is going to change?

[Seboist]

Seboist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...
How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

I think the novels (haven't read them) suggest that even if you destroy the base Cerberus salavages something useful from it.  Renegades get nothing because Cerberus is out to get you regardless.  That's the worry anyway based on available info.

Personally I'm just worried ME3's Renegade playthrough will be:

Ok Shepard the Reapers are here and you need to gather allies.

Great I'll just contact the other races and...

But the aliens hate you and won't help

Then I'll go to the...

And the Alliance won't help either because of your actions with Cerberus.

I see.  Well I'll...

And the Krogan hate you for destroying the genophage cure

Then I'll...

And the Quarians have gone to war with the Geth

At least I've still got...

And Cerberus has sided with the Reapers.

You know I can bend over if it makes things easier

That's my worst case scenario; which sadly doesn't differ much from my best case scenario but life has taught me to set the bar low.

If you destroy the genophage data TIM talks about recruiting the Vorcha as a replacement........ but that means they'd be working for Cerberus and they'd be out to get you.

Son of a ****.

Really? I can't recall ever reading or hearing that.

He sure does. I'm surprised TIM hasn't thought about recruiting the Vorcha before. They'd likely prefer working for Cerberus than under the Krogans in the Blood Pack.

Found a vid that shows this.

8:31 ->

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...
How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

I think the novels (haven't read them) suggest that even if you destroy the base Cerberus salavages something useful from it.  Renegades get nothing because Cerberus is out to get you regardless.  That's the worry anyway based on available info.

Personally I'm just worried ME3's Renegade playthrough will be:

Ok Shepard the Reapers are here and you need to gather allies.

Great I'll just contact the other races and...

But the aliens hate you and won't help

Then I'll go to the...

And the Alliance won't help either because of your actions with Cerberus.

I see.  Well I'll...

And the Krogan hate you for destroying the genophage cure

Then I'll...

And the Quarians have gone to war with the Geth

At least I've still got...

And Cerberus has sided with the Reapers.

You know I can bend over if it makes things easier

That's my worst case scenario; which sadly doesn't differ much from my best case scenario but life has taught me to set the bar low.

If you destroy the genophage data TIM talks about recruiting the Vorcha as a replacement........ but that means they'd be working for Cerberus and they'd be out to get you.

Son of a ****.

Really? I can't recall ever reading or hearing that.

He sure does. I'm surprised TIM hasn't thought about recruiting the Vorcha before. They'd likely prefer working for Cerberus than under the Krogans in the Blood Pack.

I'd like to keep an eye open for this in my next playthrough. Do you remember where this was?

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...
How do you figure they get the tech regaurdless? I was hoping that renegades would get better toys due to Cerberus having the base

I think the novels (haven't read them) suggest that even if you destroy the base Cerberus salavages something useful from it.  Renegades get nothing because Cerberus is out to get you regardless.  That's the worry anyway based on available info.

Personally I'm just worried ME3's Renegade playthrough will be:

Ok Shepard the Reapers are here and you need to gather allies.

Great I'll just contact the other races and...

But the aliens hate you and won't help

Then I'll go to the...

And the Alliance won't help either because of your actions with Cerberus.

I see.  Well I'll...

And the Krogan hate you for destroying the genophage cure

Then I'll...

And the Quarians have gone to war with the Geth

At least I've still got...

And Cerberus has sided with the Reapers.

You know I can bend over if it makes things easier

That's my worst case scenario; which sadly doesn't differ much from my best case scenario but life has taught me to set the bar low.

If you destroy the genophage data TIM talks about recruiting the Vorcha as a replacement........ but that means they'd be working for Cerberus and they'd be out to get you.

Son of a ****.

Really? I can't recall ever reading or hearing that.

He sure does. I'm surprised TIM hasn't thought about recruiting the Vorcha before. They'd likely prefer working for Cerberus than under the Krogans in the Blood Pack.

I'd like to keep an eye open for this in my next playthrough. Do you remember where this was?

Check previous post.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oh, that.

That mission entry was more about informants: I was thinking 'Cerberus is creating an army' sort of thing.

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oh, that.

That mission entry was more about informants: I was thinking 'Cerberus is creating an army' sort of thing.

Well, it's about recruiting the Vorcha to some capacity. The summary for keeping the data talks about using Krogans as shock troops and without the data there would be a void that the Vorcha need to fulfill. They'd have no problem multiplying quickly.

Troubled by Clan Weyrloc’s progress toward genophage cure without
Cerberus knowledge. Cure data may prove useful. Krogan dangerous, but if
recruited as shock troops against Reapers, extremely valuable.
Mordin’s assistant is no longer a problem. Mordin will have no trouble focusing on the mission.

http://masseffect.wi...rdin:_Old_Blood

For some reason they don't list the data destroyed summary on there....

[alx119]

thurmanator692 wrote...

well, Renegades may find it harder to find allies, but i have a feeling that Paragons are going to have a lot more in the way of enemies

Uhm Actually I've been thinking about this, and although you may be right that some of those allies will turn into enemies, I also fear that renegades will have a tougher experience as well, because well, if Cerberus has the Collector's technology, and then they turn their backs against you, well as someone stated, they won't really give you anything, instead, they'll use it themselves... becoming, I assume, stronger.

That's something to think about.
Then again, I like what someone stated earlier, about player knowledge not being equal as Shepard's knowledge. I think, the playthrough that counts the most, is the one you do following your own instincts, choosing what you thnk is right regardless if your preference would be renegade or paragon, in other words, the best is to just not think about the red or blue bar, and just do whatever you feel like doing.

At least that would make you enjoy the game a bit more than to just go blindly one way and get decieved.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...


Do we know this to be the case?

Yes.

Very compelling evidence, sir. Shepard should have you as defense lawyer.

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...
Without something resembling the 2nd law, how would Geth  police, fire, or military units function? How would they ever risk their own existance over Quarian lives? They would need self preservation to keep themselves from leaping into foolhardy situations, too, to know when not to leap into a hopeless situation.

The difference could be the priority to how it handles the events. Even if there are priorities (mainly because I'd have to assume it would be sheer idiocy for the Quarian's not to implement them) the proof is in the pudding, eventually the Geth turned against the Quarians.

Therefore my hypothesis still stands; the Geth 'evolved' and continue to evolve past any limitations in which the Quarian's may or may not have put in place. 

Having said all that though, the more I think about it, the more I think that because Geth's 'sapience' was a byproduct of an accident, the more I think an Aasimov's type law couldn't have been implemented. The way I think of it prior to the confirmed conversation between Mistress Hala'Dama, the more I think that prior to this, the Geth behaved more as some sort of VI -- which I interpret as being a highly advanced Expert System (basically a database). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Asimov's more famous laws were more inline with actual intelligent creations, but 'lesser' creations operate closer to what could be best described as 'machinery' than anything else.

For example; a simple early Geth firefighter could work on this sort of statement ( Pseudo code incoming take cover!):

If (fire)
CheckForSurvivors()
EngageFireFightingProtocol()
end if

In this case, it's not adaptable (short of checking fire conditions as they change and acting accordingly) so I don't think it could really be classified as 'intelligent' and therefore somewhat bypassing Asimov's Law.

But; we know that the Quarian's allowed for self-optimization, so if the function call CheckForSurvivors could mean that the successive EngageFireFightingProtocol was not 'optimal' (for example; the delay could endanger more people) then it could mean the function calls get switched.

I guess what I'm saying is that a multitude of these 'slight optimizations' could have had the snowball effect leading to their eventual dawning intelligence, and because of that, because by it's very nature that the Geth evolved in an unintended manner, than it could have been that Asimov's Law equivalent could have been circumvented or that the Quarian's didn't introduce it in the first place because the Geth were never meant to be in a position where they needed Asimov's Law. Does that make sense?

I also find it doubtful that the Quarian's regularly checked Geth code to see how their creation was evolving, or if they did then apparently it happened so fast that they couldn't do anything about it because U351 (or whatever it was called) was asking his Mistress whether they had a soul or not.


Do you recommend actually reading Asimov's books?

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

The difference could be the priority to how it handles the events. Even if there are priorities (mainly because I'd have to assume it would be sheer idiocy for the Quarian's not to implement them) the proof is in the pudding, eventually the Geth turned against the Quarians.

Therefore my hypothesis still stands; the Geth 'evolved' and continue to evolve past any limitations in which the Quarian's may or may not have put in place.

It doesn't have to be evolution of the hardware so much as just philosophical evolution. If the Geth concluded for whatever reason that the Quarians would be harmed by them not fighting back, then fighting back would be in accordance with the first law, even though it would seem to contradict said law. For example, if the self destruct protocol was unconstitutional under Quarian law (on the basis the Geth were sentient), they could conclude that the Quarian people need them to fight to defend those principles, for their own good, and if they backed down it could do more harm to the Quarians in the long run. In such a case they presumably would have deliberately let the migrant fleet get away.

Or they could have simply considered themselves Quarians, in which case the first and second laws again become problematic, since by inaction they would be allowing Quarians (themselves) to be slaughtered.

And again, since they were intended for military use as well as civilian, they had to have a weaker 1st law.

Do you recommend actually reading Asimov's books?

Definately. In this specific context I would recommend "I Robot" and "The Rest of the Robots", which are collections of linked short stories and explore the laws of robotics and AI's. It isn't until the tie ins with the Foundation series that you get to see the end developments, mind.

Asimov is one of the greats, with a strong background in science (he wrote as much non-fiction science related works as he did science fiction).

[GenericPlayer2]

I just finished a play through of ME2 using the Genesis DLC as my starting point. I am mentioning this because BioWare has been careful to distinguish the content available to players who purchased and played ME1 and those who just started a new game (the assumption that non-importers did not play the first game). This distinction is important because there are tons of side quests in ME1 that require no player decision, just that the player perform them. A non-import game, or a Genesis game assumes none of these, and hence you cannot tell Miranda about the Husks or Thorian creepers Cerberus tested.

Why do I mention this? I am mentioning this because BioWare has made a conscious effort to limit the content (cameo's, bonus quests, dialog options) for people who do not import ME1 games. The sad thing is that Renegades who do import ME1 games will, in many instances, get the non-import treatment. Take Feros for example. If you killed Shiala you get someone you never saw before, as opposed to Liz Baynham. If you didn't play ME1 and just imported, you get the same person - no distinction there. If Gianna isn't around on Ilium, there is no Lorik Q'uin in her spot. If the DA goes down in flames, you are somehow blamed for it and the new council (which owe you their jobs) won't meet with you. And it goes on.

Now Genesis may limit you to 6 choices because BW does not want it to be a substitute for playing ME1, but it could be because those 6 choices are really the only ones that matter in the grand scheme of things.

[lovgreno]

daqs wrote...

The fact that people are still arguing about what the right choice was means that the good people at BioWare did something very, very right.

Yes definitely! But hey, some arguing for the sake of fun is a good enough reason for me. But let's wait untill we have played through ME3 before we say "I was right all the time!".