904 réponses à ce sujet

[Mecha Tengu]

the americans had very few submarines, let alone enough to stand against the Kreigsmarine U-Boat raids on the east coast

[Dean_the_Young]

First, the primary anti-submarine weapon wasn't a submarine: it was the destroyer. Sub-tracking-subs only came to during the Cold War.

Second, the Americans practiced incredibly successful submarine warfare in the Pacific Theater... and especially once their torpedo ordinance was fixed. Submarines accounted for the most tonnage sunk over the war by far, including a quarter of the Japanese navy and upwards over half of the merchant marine despite being about 2% of the tonnage of the American fleet.

Third, the Americans had one of the largest submarine fleets in the world at the start of and during WW2.

[tjzsf]

crimzontearz wrote...

I am not getting this

why does paragon have to equal "non violent"?

It doesn't.
It just means violence can't be the first resort.
Unless it's a batarian, of course.

[Moiaussi]

Actually it means you are willing to take higher trust based risks. You can still snipe and otherwise shoot first in situations where there are no reasonable communication/negotiation options.

You aren't obligated to accept all terms, either.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Paragons and Renagades have very different means of dealing with a problem.

Renagades don't take chances and kill any threat... the down side is they enrage people by their actions.

Paragons take more risks in order to take the higher road... the up side is they remove hate from their detractors.

The best example is in ME2 the racist Turian politician who wants to remove humans from the Council. A Renegade will kill him... but in killing him they've only made him into a martre and given his cause more political steam and will rally more people to his cause. A paragon will save him, and what is he going to say to his followers? "I was almost killed tonight...but I was saved by a human." By taking the high road you negate his hate with mercy, you defuse his agenday by showing his followers that humans are noble enough to be on the Council.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I think the main issue is how Bioware views the two when it comes to the major choices:

Paragon choices are the short-term moral decisions that end up having long-term potential benefits (in addition to short-term ones/instant positive feedback).

Renegade choices are the long-term strategic decisions that end up having only short-term potential benefits (if any, usually negative feedback).

[CaptainZaysh]

 

[Mecha Tengu]

ahahah^

well in the end, chamberlain's appeasement did nothing. So excellent analogy there

Modifié par Mecha Tengu, 31 mai 2011 - 12:49 .

[Barquiel]

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

[crimzontearz]

tjzsf wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
I am not getting this

why does paragon have to equal "non violent"?

It doesn't.
It just means violence can't be the first resort.
Unless it's a batarian, of course.

I cannot recall any Paragon interrupts being interpreted as using violence as a first resort tho.....honestly

[Seboist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I think the main issue is how Bioware views the two when it comes to the major choices:

Paragon choices are the short-term moral decisions that end up having long-term potential benefits (in addition to short-term ones/instant positive feedback).

Renegade choices are the long-term strategic decisions that end up having only short-term potential benefits (if any, usually negative feedback).

Some of the Renegade choices are purely long-term like killing the Rachni Queen, destroying the heretic Geth and keeping David in Project Overlord.

[TobyHasEyes]

Seboist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I think the main issue is how Bioware views the two when it comes to the major choices:

Paragon choices are the short-term moral decisions that end up having long-term potential benefits (in addition to short-term ones/instant positive feedback).

Renegade choices are the long-term strategic decisions that end up having only short-term potential benefits (if any, usually negative feedback).

Some of the Renegade choices are purely long-term like killing the Rachni Queen, destroying the heretic Geth and keeping David in Project Overlord.

 Well its not a perfect definition.. Paragon morality is not neccessarily defined by the short term, nor are morality and strategy polar opposites in all these cases

[Moiaussi]

The Churchill vs Chamberlain analogy isn't really applicable, since Paragon doesn't equate to infinite trust. They still consider the Reapers a threat, for example, despite Sovereign telling us to surrender for our own good.

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Paragons just trust everybody else including criminals and monsters.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 mai 2011 - 06:04 .

[CroGamer002]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

 

Paragon≠idiot who thinks that some powerful douchbag with possible strongest military in world that already broke many international laws will obey your requests because you asked nicely


Seriously if this is your definition of Paragon then you obviously never played as one.




If this was just a joke then it's not good one.

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Paragons just trust everybody else including criminals and monsters.

You're right.
Paragons totally trust Illusive Man and Cerberus.
Oh right...

[lovgreno]

There is always a lot of effort around here to make the paragon choices seem like the naive ones. I would say that another point of wiev is that giving the finger to possible allies (especialy actualy strong and reliable ones) and still counting on enough support to win a war is more naive.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Paragons just trust everybody else including criminals and monsters.

You're right.
Paragons totally trust Illusive Man and Cerberus.
Oh right...

That's pretty much what Paragon Shepard does, once Shepard gets past the 'I'll never work with you!' phase. Generally when there's any choice between giving Cerberus trust/benefit of the doubt, and, well, not, it's the Paragon option that defends Cerberus (responding to the Collector cruiser trap realization, Jacob's question about trust, etc.).

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Paragons just trust everybody else including criminals and monsters.

You're right.
Paragons totally trust Illusive Man and Cerberus.
Oh right...

That's pretty much what Paragon Shepard does, once Shepard gets past the 'I'll never work with you!' phase. Generally when there's any choice between giving Cerberus trust/benefit of the doubt, and, well, not, it's the Paragon option that defends Cerberus (responding to the Collector cruiser trap realization, Jacob's question about trust, etc.).

Yep, it's Renegade Shep that gets uppidity with TIM.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's pretty much what Paragon Shepard does, once Shepard gets past the 'I'll never work with you!' phase. Generally when there's any choice between giving Cerberus trust/benefit of the doubt, and, well, not, it's the Paragon option that defends Cerberus (responding to the Collector cruiser trap realization, Jacob's question about trust, etc.).

I think you are confusing idiotball-shep with the renegade/paragon system. Working with Cerberus isn't a choice for either.

And it isn't defending Cerberus per se. Those points are for telling people not to rush to judgement (what Shep actually says is 'Don't jump to conclusions'). In the debriefing with TIM you get paragon points for "I knew I couldn't trust you.'

There are plenty of other places you get paragon points for speaking against Cerberus. With Jacob, for 'I'll never work with Cerberus", with TIM for 'You're not my friend' and "I'll need a lot of convincing', and with Miranda "I'm not Cerberus' and 'Cerberus is wrong'

The only quote I can find that defends your suggestion is telling the VS "Cerberus is not the enemy," but in the context of stopping the colony disappearances that is arguably true.

[Seboist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Paragons just trust everybody else including criminals and monsters.

Yeah, trusting Ultra-violent man turtles, fast breeding insects that almost doomed the galaxy, genocidal robots, an alien racial caste clique that sterilized 99% of a species and various assorted criminals is okay but when when it comes to that one small group that revived Shepard and destroyed the Collectors the moral high ground must be taken.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's pretty much what Paragon Shepard does, once Shepard gets past the 'I'll never work with you!' phase. Generally when there's any choice between giving Cerberus trust/benefit of the doubt, and, well, not, it's the Paragon option that defends Cerberus (responding to the Collector cruiser trap realization, Jacob's question about trust, etc.).

I think you are confusing idiotball-shep with the renegade/paragon system. Working with Cerberus isn't a choice for either.

And it isn't defending Cerberus per se. Those points are for telling people not to rush to judgement (what Shep actually says is 'Don't jump to conclusions'). In the debriefing with TIM you get paragon points for "I knew I couldn't trust you.'

There are plenty of other places you get paragon points for speaking against Cerberus. With Jacob, for 'I'll never work with Cerberus", with TIM for 'You're not my friend' and "I'll need a lot of convincing', and with Miranda "I'm not Cerberus' and 'Cerberus is wrong'

The only quote I can find that defends your suggestion is telling the VS "Cerberus is not the enemy," but in the context of stopping the colony disappearances that is arguably true.

You seem to be ignorring some important qualifiers in my argument . Disappointing, if not unexpected.

[Yate]

Paragons got AH YES REAPERS.

They are more screwed than Renegades are or ever will be.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You seem to be ignorring some important qualifiers in my argument . Disappointing, if not unexpected.

Only to the extent you were ignoring important qualifiers in the post you were responding to.

"Giving the benefit of the doubt" in some situations is not "pretty much" the same as 'totally trusting."

I was sticking to the context. You were watering down the context to make your arguement work. The references I gave showed that Shepard didn't 'totally trust' Cerberus, nor did Shep give them 'the benefit of the doubt' in all cases.
 
Two examples I didn't provide: Paragons don't hand over the base, and paragons send compromising Cerberus data to Hackett.

Both those show Shep not giving Cerberus or TIM the benefit of the doubt. I suppose you'll just come back by pointing out you said 'generally', but if by that you mean 'paragons in one particular situation in the game give TIM the benefit of the doubt' it doesn't mean much.

Again, both paragons and renegades keep working with Cerberus right through the end of ME2, so they both trust Cerberus enough to do so.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 31 mai 2011 - 10:20 .

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, trusting Ultra-violent man turtles, fast breeding insects that almost doomed the galaxy, genocidal robots, an alien racial caste clique that sterilized 99% of a species and various assorted criminals is okay but when when it comes to that one small group that revived Shepard and destroyed the Collectors the moral high ground must be taken.

Paragon Shepard doesn't trust clan Weryloc nor offers quarter to any of the umpteen gazillion Krogan mercs engaging in suicide by Spectre, and never waited to see if any Geth had anything to say in ME1. The criminals Shepard shows trust to Shep actively works to reform and has had significant success. It isn't all criminals, not even all criminals willing to talk. Paragon Shepard turns in a certain Vorlus

But of course it is much easier to generalize and treat all situations as equal, especially when you are treating them as equally dangerous rather than as equally hopeful. Treating them all as equally dangerous ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy where you are giving them reason to be dangerous, whether they were or not.

Equally hopeful means you will probably be dead crossing the busy intersection that you assumed was safe to cross (or in ME terms, killed by the Geth troopers shooting at you that you assumed would simply stop and negotiate when they saw you weren't shooting back). You don't even live long enough to make any important decisions. Paragon isn't like that no matter how much renegades like to spin it that way.