904 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Neither are renegades.  You don't have to trust them to work with them.  That's what the entire notion of ME2 was about.  You stopped the Collectors BECAUSE you worked with Cerberus... a group you did not trust.  Outside of Cerberus, you were also working with other dangerous and powerful people, a lot of them criminals in the strictest sense.

Seboist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I think the main issue is how Bioware views the two when it comes to the major choices:

Paragon choices are the short-term moral decisions that end up having long-term potential benefits (in addition to short-term ones/instant positive feedback).

Renegade choices are the long-term strategic decisions that end up having only short-term potential benefits (if any, usually negative feedback).

Some of the Renegade choices are purely long-term like killing the Rachni Queen, destroying the heretic Geth and keeping David in Project Overlord.

Yeah, I think that's how they have it.  Long-term decisions in-game don't win out as well in the end.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 01 juin 2011 - 12:38 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Neither are renegades.  You don't have to trust them to work with them.  That's what the entire notion of ME2 was about.  You stopped the Collectors BECAUSE you worked with Cerberus... a group you did not trust.  Outside of Cerberus, you were also working with other dangerous and powerful people, a lot of them criminals in the strictest sense.

YMMV, but pro-renegade people on the boards are much more likely to also be pro Cerberus than pro-paragon people are. In fact, I can't think of any pro paragon people who are also pro Cerberus.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The in-game Renegade Shepard isn't clearly pro-Cerberus (just going off of what he says about them).  Granted I'm a Paragon player myself.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 01 juin 2011 - 01:31 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The in-game Renegade Shepard isn't clearly pro-Cerberus (just going off of what he says about them).  Granted I'm a Paragon player myself.

That is why I said 'people' rather than "Shepards'

[Mr. Gogeta34]

ahhhhhh

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 01 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[Icinix]

Have they punished Renegades yet?

Have they punished Paragons yet?

I don't belive they have - or will - punish any player for choosing a style of play through.

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Let's see, trust genocidal bugs who have shown nothing but hostility except for one individual who is trying to bargain for her life vs trust a rogue group that saved your life, gave you ship, a crew, money, and anything else you needed to fight the Reapers.

The choice on who to trust is easy for me. Though it is pretty hilarious that a Paragon trusts everybody EXCEPT the above group and that trust has, so far, turned out to be well placed. A renegade finally trusts one group who proved themselves extremely helpful and vital... and it blows up in their face.

It's funny how different people look at situations differently.

I see those same instances totally differently than you. 

It's also funny how you state your opinion as fact.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Let's see, trust genocidal bugs who have shown nothing but hostility except for one individual who is trying to bargain for her life vs trust a rogue group that saved your life, gave you ship, a crew, money, and anything else you needed to fight the Reapers.

The choice on who to trust is easy for me. Though it is pretty hilarious that a Paragon trusts everybody EXCEPT the above group and that trust has, so far, turned out to be well placed. A renegade finally trusts one group who proved themselves extremely helpful and vital... and it blows up in their face.

Cerberus didn't give you a ship, they assigned you to one. They have it heavily bugged and whenever TIM calls, it goes nowhere. That is a lot less 'your ship' than the SR1.

They didn't give you a crew, they convinced the SR1 crew to stay on. They do pay you, but only on a commission basis (bonuses only), which is not that different than the Alliance/Spectres. They certainly have not given you 'anything you need', since they did what they could to undermine your position with the Alliance and Council.

Oh, and when you say 'bugs', you imply that part of your issue with the Rachni is blind racism (that they are 'bugs' rather than 'non-bugs', as if that somehow means something other than aestetics). Also, the Rachni queen might have been lieing to you, but other than that, the Rachni war was thousands of years in the past. Your logic is like condemning all modern Eqyptians because a pharaoh once alledgedly ordered the deaths of all of another group's first born.

Meanwhile, you know from personal experience (ME1) some of the actions of Cerberus and catch TIM lieing to you. It is understandable if you don't trust the Queen, but why are you so quick to trust someone who you know outright lies to you?

[Kabanya101]

The whole Paragon vs. Renegade is such a waste of time, people play how they feel like doing in a situation. My preference is Paragon, I like being a savior and a hero. I don't always choose paragon, but most of the time I do.

That's why I have two pet peeves
1) Achievements making you do or play a renegade/paragon style. Just have one achievement to go to one extreme, not two separate ones, cause I hate making choices not because I want to, but because I have to
2) The whole argument that Renegades are badasses. Not true, just because a Paragon Shep doesn't kill innocents or punch random people doesn't make him less of a badass than a Renegade. He can still run up and blow someones head off when needed, he only does that when his hand is forced, not because he's a hothead nutjob.

[CaptainZaysh]

Moiaussi wrote...

Cerberus didn't give you a ship, they assigned you to one. They have it heavily bugged and whenever TIM calls, it goes nowhere. That is a lot less 'your ship' than the SR1.

Are we talking about the same SR1?  Because I literally had to steal that at one point.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Kabanya101 wrote...

The whole Paragon vs. Renegade is such a waste of time, people play how they feel like doing in a situation. My preference is Paragon, I like being a savior and a hero. I don't always choose paragon, but most of the time I do.

That's why I have two pet peeves
1) Achievements making you do or play a renegade/paragon style. Just have one achievement to go to one extreme, not two separate ones, cause I hate making choices not because I want to, but because I have to
2) The whole argument that Renegades are badasses. Not true, just because a Paragon Shep doesn't kill innocents or punch random people doesn't make him less of a badass than a Renegade. He can still run up and blow someones head off when needed, he only does that when his hand is forced, not because he's a hothead nutjob.

But can he go on an angry tirade when needed?  Even when paragon Shepard is angry at the C-Sec Officer and Volus harassing the Quarian he just doesn't have that right tone of voice.  The most entertaining persuasion I've seen out of both ME1 & 2 is in LotSB, when attempting to save the hostage without relinquishing your ammo or hurting her.  Specifically the renegade one, it was sexist(racist?) yet incredibly awesome at the same time.  Was also kinda funny given that Liara is right next to Shepard.  I agree, generally renegade Shepard is just a bloodthirsty, callous, and cold-hearted dick, but some of those persuasions are pretty badass.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 01 juin 2011 - 11:41 .

[Someone With Mass]

Icinix wrote...

Have they punished Renegades yet?

Have they punished Paragons yet?

I don't belive they have - or will - punish any player for choosing a style of play through.

Sadly, some people can't get that into their thick heads.

Even when Casey Hudson himself said that they're not out to punish anyone, regardless of how they play the game.

[LGTX]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't care what Casey Hudson says, I care about what has actually been done so far. 

Nice open-minded and unprejudiced outlook there.

[Leonia]

LGTX wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't care what Casey Hudson says, I care about what has actually been done so far. 

Nice open-minded and unprejudiced outlook there.

Y'know, I'm sort of with Saphra on this and I'm a paragon player. Have you noticed how much content a renegade misses out on? All those cameos on Illium? They aren't there for them. And there's no "alternate" content to make up for the lackage of that. I do hope ME3 goes out of its way to make up for the total lackage of rewards for renegade players. If neither side is supposed to be "right" one, they should get equal treatment. A renegade should have as much content to play with as a paragon.

I daresay you need to look up what "open-minded" and "unprejudiced" mean. Having absolute faith in a company that so far has slapped Renegades on the wrist (while not turning around and doing the same to Paragons) seems a bit naive.

Either both sides need to get equal treatment or they need to just accept that a mockery of the Light Side/Dark Side system from KOTOR doesn't work in this setting and get rid of it.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 12:24 .

[Arijharn]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Japan had no means to invade the U.S west Coast, but probably would have conducted a naval invasion of Australia if the attack at pearl harbour had been sucessful in destroying the carriers. With that task done, securing the oil from the dutch east indies would have been easy

I don't think you quite understand the size of Australia's landmass. Even Australian high command knew that Japan couldn't capture Australia but were 'prepared' to lose an area about the size of Queensland if it came down to it. I think recently declassified japanese military intelligence has come out and outright stated that the Japanese had no plans to actually capture Australia but enforce a naval blockade to prevent American reinforcements.

I digress. I think I can sum up this ongoing debate with this simple statement:

I am right. You are wrong. Deal.

[Arijharn]

leonia42 wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't care what Casey Hudson says, I care about what has actually been done so far. 

Nice open-minded and unprejudiced outlook there.

Y'know, I'm sort of with Saphra on this and I'm a paragon player. Have you noticed how much content a renegade misses out on? All those cameos on Illium? They aren't there for them. And there's no "alternate" content to make up for the lackage of that. I do hope ME3 goes out of its way to make up for the total lackage of rewards for renegade players. If neither side is supposed to be "right" one, they should get equal treatment. A renegade should have as much content to play with as a paragon.

I daresay you need to look up what "open-minded" and "unprejudiced" mean. Having absolute faith in a company that so far has slapped Renegades on the wrist (while not turning around and doing the same to Paragons) seems a bit naive.

Either both sides need to get equal treatment or they need to just accept that a mockery of the Light Side/Dark Side system from KOTOR doesn't work in this setting.

For what it's worth: I like you because I completely Agree. While I believe Casey will try to keep his intentions, I won't 'commit' until I see the evidence really, especially since the evidence that I saw (or... saw the 'lack' of evidence? o.0 Wait that doesn't even make sense!) seems to prove a certain track record.

I hold out hope... but that's all it is.

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...

YMMV, but pro-renegade people on the boards are much more likely to also be pro Cerberus than pro-paragon people are. In fact, I can't think of any pro paragon people who are also pro Cerberus.

Really? What about me?

I'll be completely honest here. While I have made many Renegade decisions, my Paragon meter is maxed out... in all playthroughs... mainly because I can't bring myself to be a complete [i]jerk but also because I actually agree with perhaps seemingly the majority of the Paragon style decisions.

Having said that, I think there's certainly levels or degree's on how 'pro' towards something you can be, if only because I truly doubt anyone is truly one-dimensional (although sure, sometimes I have doubts upon this very philosophy). 

For example; I think that sometimes Cerberus and the Illusive Man gets it right for whatever reason, but I'm not going to start calling him 'friend' or even start singing his praises. On the flipside, I think the Council may believe that it's doing the right thing (and probably is for it's consituents), but I think it's highly corrupted and certainly can never be described as anything but an exclusive power clique... but still, it has to have done [i]something right if it's existed for the better part of 2000 odd years or whatever.

[Leonia]

There are certainly paragons out there who keep the base and renegades that blow it up. It's a general trend that renegade players support Cerberus but I wouldn't say it's safe to assume they all feel the same way about Cerberus (or any other group in the game for that matter). No two paragon players are alike, no two renegade players are alike.

But they should all be given a fair go, especially when the system isn't black versus white, Sith versus Jedi, bad versus good. Paragon and Renegade are two different methodologies trying to achieve the same goal and they shouldn't be treated otherwise.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 12:41 .

[Someone With Mass]

leonia42 wrote...

Y'know, I'm sort of with Saphra on this and I'm a paragon player. Have you noticed how much content a renegade misses out on? All those cameos on Illium? They aren't there for them. And there's no "alternate" content to make up for the lackage of that. I do hope ME3 goes out of its way to make up for the total lackage of rewards for renegade players. If neither side is supposed to be "right" one, they should get equal treatment. A renegade should have as much content to play with as a paragon.

I daresay you need to look up what "open-minded" and "unprejudiced" mean. Having absolute faith in a company that so far has slapped Renegades on the wrist (while not turning around and doing the same to Paragons) seems a bit naive.

Either both sides need to get equal treatment or they need to just accept that a mockery of the Light Side/Dark Side system from KOTOR doesn't work in this setting and get rid of it.

They can always, you know, NOT kill those characters and still be Renegade. I mean, just because I'm Paragon doesn't mean I have to take every Paragon option in sight. Same with Renegade.