904 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They can always, you know, NOT kill those characters and still be Renegade. I mean, just because I'm Paragon doesn't mean I have to take every Paragon option in sight. Same with Renegade.

To go paragade or renegon (as mix-n-matching would imply) is to realise that Bioware isn't going to cater to you. The game pretty much pushes you into one path or the other, where one path is apparently inferior (in terms of available content). Just as neutrals get shafted, so do the paragades/renegons. The whole system is flawed.

I mean, really, when they start tieing paragon/renegade into even general conversations where Shepard isn't making a major decision, what can you expect?

Why can't there be an equal amount of content for both sides? Why can't renegades get cameos that paragons can't get?

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 12:44 .

[Someone With Mass]

leonia42 wrote...
Why can't there be an equal amount of content for both sides? Why can't renegades get cameos that paragons can't get?

Because most characters don't want to be near the guy who killed a person they knew.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
However if I do kill the character my import should still matter.

What if BioWare assumes that you don't want anything to do with that character in the future if you kill him? Because that's kind of the point with the option.

[LGTX]

leonia42 wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't care what Casey Hudson says, I care about what has actually been done so far. 

Nice open-minded and unprejudiced outlook there.

I daresay you need to look up what "open-minded" and "unprejudiced" mean. 

No thank you, I'm good.

Also, I never said Renegades weren't "punished", if you really want to use this term, in ME2. I just implied there is no reason to believe they will be in ME3. 

[LGTX]

Saphra Deden wrote...

LGTX wrote...

No thank you, I'm good.

Also, I never said Renegades weren't "punished", if you really want to use this term, in ME2. I just implied there is no reason to believe they will be in ME3. 

Other than historical precedent?

In any case I'm not assuming they will be, I just think it is very likely. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised.

I'm not assuming that either. But then again, I'm not assuming anything until the game is out. Historical precedents or not.

[Icinix]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Have they punished Renegades yet?

Have they punished Paragons yet?

I don't belive they have - or will - punish any player for choosing a style of play through.

Sadly, some people can't get that into their thick heads.

Even when Casey Hudson himself said that they're not out to punish anyone, regardless of how they play the game.

I don't care what Casey Hudson says, I care about what has acctually been done so far. So far, Renegade decisions have resulted in no import recognition of any kind in many cases. That is "punishment" as far as I'm concerned. Though I'm sure it is just laziness/timeconstraints/money/ect on Bioware's part and not actual malicious intent.

Oh..from a content point of view thats definitely a whole different kettle of bananas.

I do hope that Renegades who keep the base get a massive amout of new content, or even a whole base to explore...

..but then..that comes back to lack of impact from choices beyond Cameo's in ME2 - as a rule - I hope the outcome of all choices - Paragon / Paragade / Renegon / Renegade / Gatorade - shows some drastically different content.

[Leonia]

I'm no big fan of the term "punishment" either, I only champion "equality" and "fair treatment". I liked the Wreav example though. Too bad that doesn't happen very often.

Mmm kettle of bananas..

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 01:20 .

[Icinix]

leonia42 wrote...

I'm no big fan of the term "punishment" either, I only champion "equality" and "fair treatment". I liked the Wreav example though. Too bad that doesn't happen very often.

Mmm kettle of bananas..

at about fifteen bucks a kilo - they just don't seem worth it...

Then I have one...and it totally is.

[LGTX]

Saphra Deden wrote...

LGTX wrote...

I'm not assuming that either. But then again, I'm not assuming anything until the game is out. Historical precedents or not.

If every time you touched a hot stove would you start to anticipate getting burned? Sure, there might come a time when you touch the stove and it wasn't hot and you don't get burned. However could anyone fault you for fearing that you would be?

I don't think the metaphor gives my outlook justice, if I interpreted its meaning correctly. That stove was only heated once and is not going to ask you to touch itself anymore. The new stove may be based on the old one, but you don't know enough details to assume whether it'll be hot or not.

[Leonia]

Cautious optimism is the best way to approach any game in development, regardless if you've been burned yet or not. Your mileage of cynicism may vary.

For example, I lived through the NGE in SWG and ever since have expected all MMO developers to burn me again. Maybe players who liked the NGE don't think like that, maybe the new players still like the game and are more optimistic. Maybe some people are even more extreme than me and will never play an MMO again after the experience.

Each gamer is a little bit different, but it doesn't hurt to not get ones hopes up these days.

"I like to expect the worse; there's always a small chance that I will be pleasantly surprised."

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 01:50 .

[CroGamer002]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Paragons just trust everybody else including criminals and monsters.

You're right.
Paragons totally trust Illusive Man and Cerberus.
Oh right...

That's pretty much what Paragon Shepard does, once Shepard gets past the 'I'll never work with you!' phase. Generally when there's any choice between giving Cerberus trust/benefit of the doubt, and, well, not, it's the Paragon option that defends Cerberus (responding to the Collector cruiser trap realization, Jacob's question about trust, etc.).

So staying calm in dangerous situation and agreeing that knowing for trap would tip off Collectors makes Shepard agreeing with Cerberus methods and trusting them?

Also have conversation with Tali, Garrus, Mordin and Miranda where we DON'T trust Cerberus.

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, trusting Ultra-violent man turtles,

Man turtles?




And ultra-violent? Were you ever on Tuchanka?

And don't kill Wrex!
It's not Renegade decision to kill him!

fast breeding insects that almost doomed the galaxy,

Considering how Council races are incompetent I am not shocked why.

Still Council never talked with Rachni, Shepard did!

genocidal robots,

Every race made a genocide.

an alien racial caste clique that sterilized 99% of a species

Wait, but I was entire time arguing with Mordin about that. Renegade Shepard was the one that agreed with Mordin.
And we never had a chance to talk to any Salarian before about that.

and various assorted criminals is okay

What criminal organization?

Blue Suns? No we kill them all the time.
Eclipse? Same thing.
Blood Pack. Even worse.

Please elaborate.
I don't remember working for any criminal organization, but Cerberus with both Paragon and Renegade, in both ME1 and 2.
What the hell are you talking about?

but when when it comes to that one small group that revived Shepard and destroyed the Collectors the moral high ground must be taken.

And should have had same dilemma before and/or after when?

[Moiaussi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Cerberus didn't give you a ship, they assigned you to one. They have it heavily bugged and whenever TIM calls, it goes nowhere. That is a lot less 'your ship' than the SR1.

Are we talking about the same SR1?  Because I literally had to steal that at one point.

I didn't say the SR1 was 'your ship' either. It was an Alliance warship. Even though you had to 'steal' it in the end of ME1, by the end of ME2 you have pretty much mutinied against Cerberus too (or at least they consider you an enemy one way or another by the time of ME3). In ME1, even though you disobey orders to take the Normandy to Illos, you do bring it back with no reprocussions. With the SR2, when TIM calls, you aren't even given the option to disobey. Joker will refuse to lay in a course until you get your new orders. The closest to disobeying occurs with the Collector base, and you come back to Cerberus MQ after that, too.

Are you really seriously trying to make the case though that Cerberus literally gave you the SR2, despite their cover logo all over it and all your  uniforms? If you stop obeying you are stealing the ship.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Paragons are not the ones who trust the evil racist megalomaniac...

Paragons just trust everybody else including criminals and monsters.

You're right.
Paragons totally trust Illusive Man and Cerberus.
Oh right...

That's pretty much what Paragon Shepard does, once Shepard gets past the 'I'll never work with you!' phase. Generally when there's any choice between giving Cerberus trust/benefit of the doubt, and, well, not, it's the Paragon option that defends Cerberus (responding to the Collector cruiser trap realization, Jacob's question about trust, etc.).

So staying calm in dangerous situation and agreeing that knowing for trap would tip off Collectors makes Shepard agreeing with Cerberus methods and trusting them?

Did I say that? Because what you quoted doesn't have me saying that.

The point is that your belief of 'Paragons hate TIM' is unsupported by the game: working/trusting/liking TIM/Cerberus isn't a consistent Paragon/Renegade point. Both Paragons AND Renegades get numerous opportunities to defend and be confronational vis-a-vis TIM and Cerberus. It's not a Paragon/Renegade issue.

'Paragons don't trust TIM' is about as true as 'Paragons romance Liara': there are Paragons who do, but there isn't an auto-correlation between 'Paragon' and 'X' in that case.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, they gave me one. Shepard is never forced to join Cerberus and he is never forced to follow any of TIM's directives. Shepard simply agrees. You might not like it and I might even agree with you that the player should have had the option to be far more defiant. However, the fact is, the way the story is written it is clear that Shepard is a willing tool.

 
Does TIM know he 'gave' you the SR2? Or that you haven't 'joined Cerberus?' If you haven't joined, why is their logo plastered over everything, including you? They pay you, they supply you, and they give you marching orders, which you obey or the Normandy sits dead in space. You are not forced to stay working for whatever company you work for in RL, but that doesn't mean you haven't joined them for the duration of your employment.

Oh come of it. Don't make me get in to the myriad of reasons it was reckless to set the queen free.

I don't mind you citing legitimate arguements, because they do exist. It is when you do things like label them 'bugs' or other irrelevant prejudicial labels.

I've said this a million times but I'll say it again.

I only trust TIM in the sense that I believe his committment to humanity is genuine (that his jingoism is truthful) and that the logical consequence of that is TIM fighting the Reapers.

That's it. I don't trust him to not send me to my death. However, he's proven a capable strategist so far, so I accept that I'm expendable.

You do have to realize that just as you have your reasons for no't trusting the queen, some of us have reason to distrust TIM's ability as a strategist. Personally I have yet to see the 'proof'' to which you refer. Based on many of his comments, I also distrust his commitment to humanity. I believe he believes it, but distrust the degree to which he refuses to question his own methods or results.

As the saying goes, your milage may vary.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

YMMV, but pro-renegade people on the boards are much more likely to also be pro Cerberus than pro-paragon people are. In fact, I can't think of any pro paragon people who are also pro Cerberus.

Really? What about me?

I'll be completely honest here. While I have made many Renegade decisions, my Paragon meter is maxed out... in all playthroughs... mainly because I can't bring myself to be a complete [i]jerk but also because I actually agree with perhaps seemingly the majority of the Paragon style decisions.

Having said that, I think there's certainly levels or degree's on how 'pro' towards something you can be, if only because I truly doubt anyone is truly one-dimensional (although sure, sometimes I have doubts upon this very philosophy). 

For example; I think that sometimes Cerberus and the Illusive Man gets it right for whatever reason, but I'm not going to start calling him 'friend' or even start singing his praises. On the flipside, I think the Council may believe that it's doing the right thing (and probably is for it's consituents), but I think it's highly corrupted and certainly can never be described as anything but an exclusive power clique... but still, it has to have done [i]something right if it's existed for the better part of 2000 odd years or whatever.

I can agree with some things Cerberus does without agreeing with Cerberus generally. I can even also agree with the goal of promoting and/or advancing humanity. That is not the same as trusting Cerberus, trusting TIM, or being overall pro-Cerberus.

Just as no government or business is ever going to be completely perfect, none is going to be completely imperfect either. They will always get at least something right.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

However if I do kill the character my import should still matter.

If it didn't matter, would we really be having this discussion?

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The point is that your belief of 'Paragons hate TIM' is unsupported by the game: working/trusting/liking TIM/Cerberus isn't a consistent Paragon/Renegade point. Both Paragons AND Renegades get numerous opportunities to defend and be confronational vis-a-vis TIM and Cerberus. It's not a Paragon/Renegade issue.

'Paragons don't trust TIM' is about as true as 'Paragons romance Liara': there are Paragons who do, but there isn't an auto-correlation between 'Paragon' and 'X' in that case.

Fair game to say that paragons don't all distrust TIM. Can you at least admit that paragons don't all trust TIM either?

[Leonia]

Multiquoting is your friend.

[Clonedzero]

all im going ot say is that im going to rage so hard if letting the rachni queen live turns out to be a huge help against the reapers.

i generally take a paragade view of things, but letting the rachni queen go seemed like the dumbest choice ever.

"lets release this queen of a telepathic hive minded creature who will have hordes of mindless rachni warrior slaves, has the ability to breed extremely fast and has the ability to mind control people wounded or not. also! lets not forget that it once almost entirely wiped out all other life in the galaxy! but oh wait! it said it wants to be nice ok lets let it go!"

ugh.