904 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Clonedzero wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There are no cloned rachni in ME1. Nor are there any other Rachni reproduction methods going on.

All Rachni in ME1 were born from the Rachni Queen, the only fertile Rachni currently in known existence. All other Rachni are her children, whether totally insane (the Feros Rachni) or somewhat developed (the Cerberus imports).

uh, no thats not correct.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rachni


they did clone a whole bunch of rachni. miranda even confirms it if you confront her about it.

This is a case of the wiki being wrong (imagine that), and you most likely confusing two separate conversation points (imagine that again).

The in-game terminals show that Cerberus's source of Rachni is Noveria, making direct references to how these ones would be saner for being left in proximity to the Queen for longer.

also if you kill the rachni queen in ME2 theres a news report about finding an abandoned rachni cloning center.

They are refering to Noveria.

If you kill the Rachni Queen, the cover story is that the Rachni were clones, not that they actually let a queen breed. But, as we were on Noveria and actually knew what happened, including talking to the scientists who noted that while the plan had been to clone, the Queen egg was a surprise that invalidated the need...

in one of the ME1 rachni sidequests theres rooms with rachni eggs all over it as well.

There isn't.

The ME1 Rachni sidequest on a planet has an area with a Rachni nest, but no eggs or fertile females. You kill to nest guardians, but no mention, indication, or implication of any eggs or Fertile Rachni is ever made, while Shepard blowing up the Cerberus space station is done in tracking down the source of the Rachni.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I think that in general.... we're starting to agree...

[Moiaussi]

Clonedzero wrote...

but my main point is, i REALLY dont want the rachni to be a "freebie" as an extra race to help fight the reapers in ME3. it shouldnt make a big difference, i dont want it to turn into "this choice is right, and this one was wrong so now you'll have a harder time"

Even if it is only a 'freebie' to those who have bought and played all three?

[Clonedzero]

i JUST did the rachni sidequests yesterday. i shot all the eggs inside the listening post.
they're balls with 4 spikey things coming off making a weird tripod. they even made a funny egg popping sound when i shot them.

there is most certainly cloned rachni. the reference to the ones would be saner if they were around a queen even though they're clones.

[Clonedzero]

Moiaussi wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

but my main point is, i REALLY dont want the rachni to be a "freebie" as an extra race to help fight the reapers in ME3. it shouldnt make a big difference, i dont want it to turn into "this choice is right, and this one was wrong so now you'll have a harder time"

Even if it is only a 'freebie' to those who have bought and played all three?

i will have bought and played all three, so i only get the "freebie" if i make a very specific paragon choice? thats kinda messed up...

[Dean_the_Young]

Clonedzero wrote...

i JUST did the rachni sidequests yesterday. i shot all the eggs inside the listening post.
they're balls with 4 spikey things coming off making a weird tripod. they even made a funny egg popping sound when i shot them.

Those same objects appear on various worlds with no relation to the Rachni. No, seriously: completely unrelated objects. They don't even show up in the tunnel where you kill the nest guardians.

there is most certainly cloned rachni. the reference to the ones would be saner if they were around a queen even though they're clones.

Uh, no. No reference or implications to those Rachni being clones is made, while the reference implicitly implies importation (that those batch were kept in proximity to the Queen before being sent).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 juin 2011 - 06:19 .

[Clonedzero]

Cerberus created cloned rachni on Binthu as part of their super-soldier research. More rachni are encountered at Alliance listening posts on Nepmos and Altahe. After clearing the rachni out, Shepard discovers they were specimens shipped from Noveria by Cerberus, and tracks them back to a depot in the Gorgon system. The depot is overrun with rachni and there are no survivors. After killing the rachni, Shepard finds the logs of the station's commanding officer named Flores who was involved in the project. She angrily claims they treated the rachni like animals when they should have treated them like POWs and leaves a recommendation that Cerberus pursue other projects; the rachni are too smart.

[Dean_the_Young]

Clonedzero wrote...

Cerberus created cloned rachni on Binthu as part of their super-soldier research. More rachni are encountered at Alliance listening posts on Nepmos and Altahe. After clearing the rachni out, Shepard discovers they were specimens shipped from Noveria by Cerberus, and tracks them back to a depot in the Gorgon system. The depot is overrun with rachni and there are no survivors. After killing the rachni, Shepard finds the logs of the station's commanding officer named Flores who was involved in the project. She angrily claims they treated the rachni like animals when they should have treated them like POWs and leaves a recommendation that Cerberus pursue other projects; the rachni are too smart.

Shepard discovers they were specimens shipped from Noveria

specimens shipped from Noveria

shipped from Noveria

from Noveria

Noveria


Noveria. Where they didn't actually do cloning, because they found their egg was a Queen.


While, meanwhile, no mention on Binthu ever alleges that the Rachni there are clones, as opposed to also being shipped.

[Clonedzero]

i dont think them being from noveria means they werent cloned. remember noveria is a haven for tons of shady experiments and such, and they specifically mention a CLONING facility on noveria, not a breeding facility.

[Dean_the_Young]

Clonedzero wrote...

i dont think them being from noveria means they werent cloned. remember noveria is a haven for tons of shady experiments and such,

Noveria divies up its projects by facilities. Peak 15 was a breeding facilitiy: no mention, suggestion, or implication of cloning was ever made while we were there investigating, while a number of scientists admitted to breeding the Rachni Queen and none did any similar to active cloning of Rachni.

and they specifically mention a CLONING facility on noveria, not a breeding facility.

They also specifically don't mention that there was a Rachni Queen as well, or that there was any breeding going on, or that Shepard was there, or that the Rachni were to be used for Saren. Starting to put two and two together now? The people making the news report weren't being completely honest with the news: what a surprise. A company with an interest to lie makes a cover story less bad than what actually occured.

[Nashiktal]

Sorry Clonedzero but Dean is right. There was no cloning done at noveria. If you replay ME1, the russian guy will tell you that they planned on cloning the Rachni using the material on the ship. However much to the surprise of everyone on the research team, the Egg was still alive, and a queen at that!

So instead of cloning, they just raised the queen (sound familiar xenomorph fans?) and used her to breed soldiers that they hoped to make into soldiers for Saren.

The news report is likely just referring to what little knowledge they had of the facility after the fact.

[Rip504]

One of my Paragon playthroughs. This will deff have a negavtive effect on one of my ME3 imports. Your choice,is open to more then just red and blue. If you want a negative/postive effect on your Shepard,Take it upon yourself to create one!



My Paragon will now have to deal with dead crew members in ME3.  Paragons can have negative outcomes in ME3,based off of the players choice.

This "Renegade" Shepard saved the Rachni Queen. Is he not a Renegade now? No he still is. The choice of being a Renegade has more to it,then just hitting the Red option.



This Renegade will have certain items that will help in a positive way,while remaining a Renegade.

Modifié par Rip504, 01 juin 2011 - 10:28 .

[Seboist]

Mesina2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

We're going to be fighting Rachni Husks no matter what guaranteed. If the queen is dead there'll be an alternate one liner describing them as cloned Cerberus examples.

This is just a assumption.

Nothing else.


And it makes no sense for Rachni to be cloned in only few months.

We're fighting Cerberus no matter what, you can expect the same for the Rachni Husks. I doubt they'd go through the trouble of making them only for them not to show up at all for a sizable portion of the playerbase.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Rip504 wrote...

This "Renegade" Shepard saved the Rachni Queen. Is he not a Renegade now? No he still is. The choice of being a Renegade has more to it,then just hitting the Red option.

'


that Shepard is a rengade who still did chose the paragon option in a major choice.

Your point?

[Moiaussi]

Clonedzero wrote...

I will have bought and played all three, so i only get the "freebie" if i make a very specific paragon choice? thats kinda messed up...

So I take it you are of the 'nothing I do matters as long as I stay alive' camp? Why can't some choices be better than others? You remind me of someone who wants in on the lottery pool they chose not to participate in that week, after learning the pool won.

Or in this case complaining that someone you didn't trust left you out of their will. So you didn't trust the Rachni. Man up and accept there are consequences for that.

[Smilietime]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Yep, it's one of those threads... except this time it's written by a paragon.

Basically, I've been thinking about the two moralities, and I think that at it's core, renegade is about minimising risk at the expense of morality, while paragon is about choosing not to sacrifice morality, but take more risks in the process.
It seems to me that it makes that choice more meaningful if some of those risks blow up in your face.

Take Balak. You can either make sure he's captured, but have the blood of innocents on your hands. Or, you can let him go to save their lives. Naturally, this should have repercussions, and makes the choice seem more difficult if it is. Keeping your morality shouldn't be an easy task.

And please, don't let this become a flamewar. I'd like to approach this more objectively this time.

I don't know why there is such a fight over this. It's really simple.

Paragon and Renegade are NOT consistant. A paragon character will be forgiving towards TIM, for instance. Paragon and Renegade are not actually two characters. It just serves as a tool to help people keep their version of commander Shephard CONSISTANT.

You're supposed to be a paragon towards people you like, for instance, shouldn't a renegade Shephard be happy to meet Garrus?

Renegade is often about intimidating people, but it's sometimes about being ruthless, or racist, or just being fed up with people (didn't you want to tell those quarian Admirals where to shove it?)

The paragon and renegade enabled dialog options are about REPUTATION. Think about it: Grunt's loyalty mission. You get a bonus to Paragon and Renegade points for killing the Thresher Maw. Why? You get paragon points because this action makes the krogans like you more, and therefor more likely to cooperate.

Modifié par Smilietime, 01 juin 2011 - 11:58 .

[Clonedzero]

Moiaussi wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

I will have bought and played all three, so i only get the "freebie" if i make a very specific paragon choice? thats kinda messed up...

So I take it you are of the 'nothing I do matters as long as I stay alive' camp? Why can't some choices be better than others? You remind me of someone who wants in on the lottery pool they chose not to participate in that week, after learning the pool won.

Or in this case complaining that someone you didn't trust left you out of their will. So you didn't trust the Rachni. Man up and accept there are consequences for that.

its that the rachni specifically are one that should turn out badly to let them live. i can accept choices being better / worse. but saving the rachni should be one of the bad choices.

like i can fully accept that saving the council is a far better choice than letting them die. that makes sense.
i can accept that keeping the collector base and giving it to TIM is probably a bad idea. that makes sense.

however, letting a extremely fast breeding, telepathic, hive minded aggressive insect race thats SUPER vunerable to being indoctrinated live being a good choice? thats just stupid.

every other big choice for paragons turns out perfectly for them, so why not make the one that makes sense to turn out badly, actually turn out badly?

i get it. you play pure paragon and want everything to be rainbows and bunnies, but thats boring and uninspired. pretty much every paragon choice turns out super great. they should make the one that makes sense to end up badly to actually end up badly.

its pretty horrible the way they've done things like this actually. my first ME1 playthrough i ignored the council to focus on sovereign because it seemed downright STUPID to risk the entire galaxy to save some politians. i felt i made a hard choice but felt satisfied at the end because it felt liek the right one. then i found out that saving them has no significant downside and everything turns out lovey dovey. i felt cheated.

not all paragon / renegade choices are about being a nice guy or being a jerk. some of them are doing the right thing vs. doing the smart thing. doing the SMART thing should actually pay off instead of it always turning out poorly and doing the right hting turns out super great. it seems really really cheap.

thats what the entire thread is about. people feel cheated when paragons get all the benefits and renegades get cheated cus they did the smart thing and it still turns out worse than the paragon choice.

[Rip504]

What?

Killing a potential ally based off of what? Crazed babies? Or 1,000 year old myths?
Even based off of that,what did the Queen ever do? Besides being tortured,caged,& having her children abducted? The Queen did control a near dead Asari which could be considered moraly wrong. But this is the Smart choice?

I on the other hand saved the Queen's life and now she owes me one.Makes sense to me.
How many times do you save someone's life and have them stab you in the back? Not often.
I chose to save her based off of what My Shepard experienced. Not the words of others. I figured I would save & free her,& in return she will help me in the future. I fought for an ally,and you fought for what ifs. If my Shepard is wrong about the Rachni then I will have to deal with that. But still, my opinion on fighting for an ally or protecting the Galaxy from what ifs,is I'll go ahead and take a risk on the ally. An Ally seems smarter then nothing to me? So from a certain PoV. You did Not make the smart choice.

Tell me how will the Rachni choice will bite you in the end? The council states how many "generations" will it be before they attack again. 2 and a half years later I say the Rachni oppose little to no threat. Betray Shepard now and forever doom your species. That also doesn't seem like a smart choice and makes no sense IMO. Ah the Rachni could be easily indoctrinated again,yes I agree. What makes that different from any other race falling to indoctrination? We have seen Humans and Turians fall under indoctrination before. Because of this very reason The Rachni already have a problem with the Reapers dating back a thousand years. So it makes sense to ally with Shepard to destroy your enemy. If the Reapers are the reason the Rachni turn on me(Indoctrination),I will still feel as if I made the right choice in ME1. Seeing as how the Rachni still have a chance to be saved & redeem their name.

I don't see how having a Sentient creature repay you for saving it's life is cheap or anything else but logical. But thats just my random opinion.

Modifié par Rip504, 02 juin 2011 - 05:31 .

[DPSSOC]

Rip504 wrote...
What?

Killing a potential ally based off of what? Crazed babies? Or 1,000 year old myths?
Even based off of that,what did the Queen ever do? Besides being tortured,caged,& having her children abducted? The Queen did control a near dead Asari which could be considered moraly wrong. But this is the Smart choice?

First off The Rachni War isn't a myth it's a documented historical event.  As for the babies what evidence do you have that they were crazed?  You have the Queen's word and the testimony of one traumatized scientist.  The Queen's word is worthless since she's under duress (She's imprisoned and you have the kill switch) so you really only have the testimony of one traumatized scientist that the Rachni might be crazy.  Another possibility is that the Queen has been calling to her children to break her out and because of the torture these calls are so frantic and desperate that it's whipped her children into a frenzy. 

Rip504 wrote...
I on the other hand saved the Queen's life and now she owes me one.Makes sense to me.
How many times do you save someone's life and have them stab you in the back? Not often.

4,973.  I understand your reasoning but it assumes the Rachni possess the same concept of gratitude as us, and given how alien the Rachni prove to be that's a damn big assumption.

Rip504 wrote...
Tell me how will the Rachni choice will bite you in the end? The council states how many "generations" will it be before they attack again. 2 and a half years later I say the Rachni oppose little to no threat.

It was generations until the overrun the galaxy I believe which makes sense since the Rachni War lasted centuries.

Rip504 wrote...
Ah the Rachni could be easily indoctrinated again,yes I agree. What makes that different from any other race falling to indoctrination?

Because they only have to indoctrinate one (the Queen) to gain the entire race.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

First off The Rachni War isn't a myth it's a documented historical event.  As for the babies what evidence do you have that they were crazed?  You have the Queen's word and the testimony of one traumatized scientist.  The Queen's word is worthless since she's under duress (She's imprisoned and you have the kill switch) so you really only have the testimony of one traumatized scientist that the Rachni might be crazy.  Another possibility is that the Queen has been calling to her children to break her out and because of the torture these calls are so frantic and desperate that it's whipped her children into a frenzy.

You have the fact that they didn't seem to be trying to rescue the Queen and their efforts could easily have prompted her captors to simply hit the kill switch. Even if she lied about that though, how is that evidence against her? She was a prisoner and being tortured. How would any escape attempts on her part be arguements against her?

Just because the Queen is under duress doesn't mean she is lieing. There is a lot more that she says other than just 'spare me I am peaceful' that some of us consider evidence that she is likely telling the truth. There is also the fact that she knows how the last war turned out and is rational enough to understand that.

The records we have of the war may be 'documented' but key aspects are in her favor, particularly the facts that Council ships intruded in Rachni space and no communications seemed possible. That tends to change rules of engagement.
 

4,973.  I understand your reasoning but it assumes the Rachni possess the same concept of gratitude as us, and given how alien the Rachni prove to be that's a damn big assumption.

She seems completely rational and such 'concepts' are common sense among social species. By the way, exactly how 'alien' do the Rachni 'prove to be?'

It was generations until the overrun the galaxy I believe which makes sense since the Rachni War lasted centuries.

It lasted centuries before the Krogan were brought in, and that was 3000 years ago. The main reason the Krogan were brought in wasn't actually the reproductive rate either. It was their ability to survive hostile environments, which has subsequently been covered off by technological development. The Rachni are also 3000 years behind on tech over what they had in the war. And they lost that war.

Because they only have to indoctrinate one (the Queen) to gain the entire race.

That assumes a couple things. First, that there is only one Queen and no additional Queens were produced (which is unlikely), and second, that they were formally indoctrianted rather than their communications coopted (in which case, the Noverian Queen knows what to watch for this time round. Even if they were indoctrinated, they know about that now so they know what to watch for.). Also, if there are any other Queens out there, then she might be able to help counter them and/or teach them what to watch for.

[Moiaussi]

Clonedzero wrote...

its that the rachni specifically are one that should turn out badly to let them live. i can accept choices being better / worse. but saving the rachni should be one of the bad choices.

however, letting a extremely fast breeding, telepathic, hive minded aggressive insect race thats SUPER vunerable to being indoctrinated live being a good choice? thats just stupid.

The Rachni did lose the war, so they are not infinately powerful, and there is nothing to indicate that their telepathy is anything other than communications only, or that they are 'super vulnerable' to indoctrination. Fair enough that is your opinion, but they are hardly any worse a threat than the Krogan (if you saved the genophage cure) or the Geth, or even the Salarians (who invented the genophage).

And even to the extent they are a powerful race, what about that makes the Queen telling the truth to be unbelievable?

i get it. you play pure paragon and want everything to be rainbows and bunnies, but thats boring and uninspired. pretty much every paragon choice turns out super great. they should make the one that makes sense to end up badly to actually end up badly.

I don't play pure paragon though. I play mostly, but not completely paragon.  It was a very tough decision for me, arguably the toughest decision I have ever had to make in a game. And if saving the queen had turned out to be a bad choice I would have taken my mia culpa's. I do not want everything to be sunshine and bunnies. I also neither want nor expect' saving the queen to be an 'I win' button any more than I expect saving the base to be a 'you lose' button.

its pretty horrible the way they've done things like this actually. my first ME1 playthrough i ignored the council to focus on sovereign because it seemed downright STUPID to risk the entire galaxy to save some politians. i felt i made a hard choice but felt satisfied at the end because it felt liek the right one. then i found out that saving them has no significant downside and everything turns out lovey dovey. i felt cheated.

No significant downside? "Ha ha, you saved us and we trust you even less than we did before that battle' isn't exactly an upside. "We'll give you back the status we never told you we took from you and banish you to that region we told you to never ever never never go into' seems pretty insulting too. How is any of that an upside? And your regained spectre status means..... exactly nothing. Noone cares. You try to work with government and they laugh at you and dismiss you. And you figure renegades feel cheated? 

not all paragon / renegade choices are about being a nice guy or being a jerk. some of them are doing the right thing vs. doing the smart thing. doing the SMART thing should actually pay off instead of it always turning out poorly and doing the right hting turns out super great. it seems really really cheap.

thats what the entire thread is about. people feel cheated when paragons get all the benefits and renegades get cheated cus they did the smart thing and it still turns out worse than the paragon choice.

It is always amusing and a little sad when people talking as if they are the most intelligent people around refuse to accept they are wrong on any given thing and declare reality stupid, just to retain their illusions of intelligence. Something can seem like the right answer, a no brainer, and still be wrong in reality. Sometimes that is because we miss or undervalue some details and sometimes reality is just strange. I advise an open mind.

I also would like to point out that concepts of right and wrong are not arbitrary. They have been developed over the entire course of human existance and are still and always a work in progress. They exist though because they generally work.

[CroGamer002]

Seboist wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

We're going to be fighting Rachni Husks no matter what guaranteed. If the queen is dead there'll be an alternate one liner describing them as cloned Cerberus examples.

This is just a assumption.

Nothing else.


And it makes no sense for Rachni to be cloned in only few months.

We're fighting Cerberus no matter what, you can expect the same for the Rachni Husks. I doubt they'd go through the trouble of making them only for them not to show up at all for a sizable portion of the playerbase.

How does that prove that we will have Rachni clones?

[Seboist]

Mesina2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

We're going to be fighting Rachni Husks no matter what guaranteed. If the queen is dead there'll be an alternate one liner describing them as cloned Cerberus examples.

This is just a assumption.

Nothing else.


And it makes no sense for Rachni to be cloned in only few months.

We're fighting Cerberus no matter what, you can expect the same for the Rachni Husks. I doubt they'd go through the trouble of making them only for them not to show up at all for a sizable portion of the playerbase.

How does that prove that we will have Rachni clones?

How doesn't it prove we'll have them? ME2's existence proves there'll be no non-cosmetic outcomes and the Rachni husks will most likely be a vital story element for certain mission(s).

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For the major decisions, paragon choices are all about the short-term moral "right." Those species could die? Lets save them. Those people need help, lets help them. All other factors are irrelevant... no matter how large in scale those factors are.

Renegade choices are all about your long-term strategic "right." I want to save them but this threat will destroy everything including who I want to save... I've got to stop this monstrosity first. I want to do this but I can't risk destruction on a larger scale than what I can currently prevent. Outside factors are vital to this decision... especially if they're large in scale.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 juin 2011 - 05:52 .