904 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

You didn't have to go to any high-clearance facilities this time around.  And because the colony abductions that Shepard is fighting to stop (and working with Cerberus to stop) take place in the Terminus systems (outside of Council jurisdiction), it seems like a moot point... what are you really expecting?  And you're always welcome and allowed to go to the Citadel... hardly a banishment. 

Translation: Spectre status means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in ME2. In ME3 you start out on trial with it presumably stripped again (if it was reinstated), so the reinstatement will mean nothing for ME3 either.

They don't tell you that you can't be in Citadel space, just not to try to use your authority as a Spectre there.

They mean what they mean and you compare them to the Renegade results... that's all that's there. 

The Paragon interview tells you how many ships were lost saving the DA but doesn't tell you how many of the DA's crew died anyway. The Renegade interview tells you how many crew members there were on the DA but doesn't tell you how many of the ships that would have been lost saving it were destroyed anyway. Neither tells you the total casualty count from the battle. You are comparing incomplete statistics and not even comparing the same set.

I do not define "major" at my whim, it's common sense that a major decision for a game ends up being a choice that you "have" to make regardless of what style you play as.  They're the choices in the main story.  The main story is unavoidable, and the choices in the main story are consequently your major choices.  That should go without saying... I'm not defining anything, I referred to what was actually there.

We had to make the Rachni decision, but it didn't relate to the actual mission and that and the Collector base are the only decisions that there is currently any suggestion as having  meaningful effects in ME3. So how do two decisions equate to 'always choose paragon?' Meeting the Council again to have them insult you is not a 'major result' no matter how you spin it. We still don't know yet how anything is going to turn out in ME3.

And for the record, my arguements thusfar have been 100% accurate and consistent regarding this.

I apologize for accusing you of inconsistancy, but I still dispute the accuracy and relevance of your arguements.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Translation: Spectre status means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in ME2. In ME3 you start out on trial with it presumably stripped again (if it was reinstated), so the reinstatement will mean nothing for ME3 either.

They don't tell you that you can't be in Citadel space, just not to try to use your authority as a Spectre there.

It's an Earth trial, thusfar it has nothing to do with the Council.  And the whole low-profile thing and terminus system restriction were for the following documented reasons:

1.  You were being permitted to continue working with Cerberus (which is an enemy of the Council)
2.  Despite working outside of Council jurisdiction, you operate as an official Spectre (which the Council cannot publically condone)

You can't be running around with Cerberus fly and fancy free (anywhere) or operate in an area outside of Council space while getting full public Council support... it's a political impossibility.

The Paragon interview tells you how many ships were lost saving the DA but doesn't tell you how many of the DA's crew died anyway. The Renegade interview tells you how many crew members there were on the DA but doesn't tell you how many of the ships that would have been lost saving it were destroyed anyway. Neither tells you the total casualty count from the battle. You are comparing incomplete statistics and not even comparing the same set.

Lets assume, best case scenario, that the ships that would've gone in to save the DA (but didn't) all survived.  That means the Paragon decision still resulted in less deaths because those cruisers didn't carry as many people as the DA did.  Still Paragon favoritism.

We had to make the Rachni decision, but it didn't relate to the actual mission and that and the Collector base are the only decisions that there is currently any suggestion as having  meaningful effects in ME3. So how do two decisions equate to 'always choose paragon?' Meeting the Council again to have them insult you is not a 'major result' no matter how you spin it. We still don't know yet how anything is going to turn out in ME3.

Rachni, Council, and Collector Base are the big 3.  All of them thusfar have heavily favored the Paragon choice.  And while the Rachni queen wasn't "the" mission, the Paragon choice on that mission has still thusfar provided the benefit of more content, an ally against the Reapers, and no negative repercussions compared to Renegades.

I apologize for accusing you of inconsistancy, but I still dispute the accuracy and relevance of your arguements.

Np, I still believe my arguements hold up very well and has been tested as correct thusfar though.  Good discussion. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 juin 2011 - 08:38 .

[Rip504]

I do not Gogeta34. MoiAussi is right and you are wrong IMO.

Your arguement about the deaths during the council choice is baseless,pointless,and senseless.
Your making assumptions about the effects of the choices made in previous games,will have in ME3.

How has destroying the Collector base been better for the Paragon? How is having a disrespectful council laughing in your face and calling you a liar,better for the Paragon? Because they make an appearance? That's horrible reasoning IMO. Oh it must be the completely pointless Spectre status.
You gave them life,they gave you nothing. Great positive benefit for the Paragon over the Renegade.

It doesn't even hint to what kind of help the Rachni will give Shepard. Besides that one saves the Queen. One kills it. One deserves an ally the other does not. You want to make the 2 playthroughs as simliar as possible. Bioware wants them to feel different, as appearently they do. Bioware figured once you kill the Queen,you are done with it. What sense does it make to mention a dead Queen in ME2? I don't see any.
Your benefit for killing the Queen is that the Rachni will never again rage war against the Galaxy. That's why you kill it,and that's your reward.!.

Modifié par Rip504, 05 juin 2011 - 09:10 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Or at least would be nice if he mentioned it, like in ME1 when asked who you were you got Paragon points for saying you're a Spectre, and Renegade for saying you are with the Alliance.. it's an oddity but would've been nice to keep it up (with I'm with Cerberus being an option too)

[Confused-Shepard]

The paragon/rengeade morality business is just stupid and we should be free to make whatever choices we want. Everything shouldn't be as black & white as it is now. There is NO benefit to playing renegade when in fact stuff like the Collector base should give them an edge.

It's funny. Renegades kill like with the Rachni Queen & Wrex whereas Paragon's save them.
The one time they decide to try the other method and save something, Bioware screws them over.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Rip504 wrote...

Your arguement about the deaths during the council choice is baseless,pointless,and senseless.

I've said the base for this arguement many times... and each time it's been 100% correct based on what's been shown thusfar.

Your making assumptions about the effects of the choices made in previous games,will have in ME3.

No, I'm only talking about what has happened thusfar and the implications of that trend continuing go without saying and don't need to be assumed.

How has destroying the Collector base been better for the Paragon? How is having a disrespectful council laughing in your face and calling you a liar,better for the Paragon? Because they make an appearance? That's horrible reasoning IMO. Oh it must be the completely pointless Spectre status.
You gave them life,they gave you nothing. Great positive benefit for the Paragon over the Renegade.

Your entire squad (pro-Cerberus or not) agrees with and backs up your decision.  You don't feel that's a "better" game ending?  Not a sign (at all) of Paragon favoritism?

And the Council never calls you a liar, they say you were mislead.  Again, they allow you to commit treason with their best wishes and operate outside of their jurisdiction with their blessing.  And... **drum roll** you actually get to see them.  Yes that's better for Paragons.

It doesn't even hint to what kind of help the Rachni will give Shepard. Besides that one saves the Queen. One kills it. One deserves an ally the other does not. You want to make the 2 playthroughs as simliar as possible. Bioware wants them to feel different, as appearently they do. Bioware figured once you kill the Queen,you are done with it. What sense does it make to mention a dead Queen in ME2? I don't see any.
Your benefit for killing the Queen is that the Rachni will never again rage war against the Galaxy. That's why you kill it,and that's your reward.!.

Go to Ilium and talk with the Rachni queen's proxy.  If that's not a "hint to what kind of help the Rachni will give Shepard" I don't know what you're expecting.  And those 2 playthroughs should be as similar in length/substance as possible.  You can make them feel different, that's not the issue and it's not the same as providing actual content.  What sense does it make to mention a dead Queen in ME2?  It'd be a reaction to the choices you make... isn't that the hook of this game?  So make the consequences to your decisions something that's actually in the game.  The reward compared to Paragon choices shouldn't be "absolutely nothing," there should be "something" there.

Paragon's reward for saving the Rachni would be that a species gets to live.  That didn't require an ME2 cameo either... that's an obvious double-standard...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 juin 2011 - 01:09 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For the record, I always spare the Rachni... and I'm still making this case.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 juin 2011 - 01:12 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It's an Earth trial, thusfar it has nothing to do with the Council.

The Alliance is part of the Council as of the end of ME1. More importantly, we are talking about Spectre status. If you have Spectre status and the Council doesn't suspend you pending the outcome of the trial you would be able to say 'I am a Spectre, I don't answer to Alliance courts only to the Council." Try to use at least a little common sense.

  And the whole low-profile thing and terminus system restriction were for the following documented reasons:

1.  You were being permitted to continue working with Cerberus (which is an enemy of the Council)
2.  Despite working outside of Council jurisdiction, you operate as an official Spectre (which the Council cannot publically condone)

You can't be running around with Cerberus fly and fancy free (anywhere) or operate in an area outside of Council space while getting full public Council support... it's a political impossibility.

But the replacement Council doesn't arrest you either even if you didn't save the DA, despite presumably having less reason to trust you. And Spectre status without anyone being informed you have been reinstated means nothing. You have to be associated with the Council just by the reinstatement or you aren't really back to being a Spectre.

You really aren't making much sense here. 

Lets assume, best case scenario, that the ships that would've gone in to save the DA (but didn't) all survived.  That means the Paragon decision still resulted in less deaths because those cruisers didn't carry as many people as the DA did.  Still Paragon favoritism.

And lets assume most of the crew of the DA die anyway even if you save the ship and the Council. Gosh, I guess the renegade decision is best. Lets assume that by ignoring the DA, the ships concentrating on Sovereign give up and break off against more important Geth ships sooner, and the overall casualties are lower. Again the renegade decision comes out best.  Of course you can prove yourself right if you simply assume you are right.

You are refusing to admit that you are presenting assumptions as facts.

The most important assumption you are making is that by the time of ME3, saving the Council means you will have enough additional ships and personell to make a stategic difference in the war. From what we know from ME2, it could mean that the Asari will have no navy of their own (having turned those duties over to the Turians), so you might only have to win over the Turians to gain the equivalent of both navies. If that is the case, renegades would have larger Turian mobilization (which could well be an advantage since the Turians are better at combat) and still be able to win over the Asari if you wanted to, for bonus points, additional ground troops, additional shipyards, etc.

Or if you are following a pro humanity path, it would be easier to get he Asari wiped out completely. That is all speculation, but the point is that assumptions can go both ways. You cannot present them as fact.

Rachni, Council, and Collector Base are the big 3.  All of them thusfar have heavily favored the Paragon choice.  And while the Rachni queen wasn't "the" mission, the Paragon choice on that mission has still thusfar provided the benefit of more content, an ally against the Reapers, and no negative repercussions compared to Renegades.

So on the basis of only one potentially major result (rachni), you are declaring paragon the only meaningful choice? One datapoint does not indicate a trend. Even then we don't know anything for certain.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

The Alliance is part of the Council as of the end of ME1. More importantly, we are talking about Spectre status. If you have Spectre status and the Council doesn't suspend you pending the outcome of the trial you would be able to say 'I am a Spectre, I don't answer to Alliance courts only to the Council." Try to use at least a little common sense.

The Alliance/Humanity is one of the Citadel races... and Humanity has a seat at the Council.  The Alliance is not a part of the Council.  You've met the Council... they're alien besides Anderson/Udina.  And Anderson is "Counselor" now (if you elect him).  Here's the situation regarding the trial:  an Alliance base destroyed a relay destroying a massive amount of Batarians.  The Alliance has a human matter to resolve.  No one else knows for sure who was responsible for the destroyed relay and Batarian deaths (unless someone recognized the station as an Alliance station) but the Batarians will be looking for blood.  Common sense?  Yeah.

 
But the replacement Council doesn't arrest you either even if you didn't save the DA, despite presumably having less reason to trust you. And Spectre status without anyone being informed you have been reinstated means nothing. You have to be associated with the Council just by the reinstatement or you aren't really back to being a Spectre.

You really aren't making much sense here. 

Think about it a little more... the Council is not there at all to do anything to you.  Your Spectre status was officially reinstated, anyone with access to a computer to look you up would be informed.  It's official, you're as much of a Spectre as you ever were... operating outside of council jurisdiction doesn't change that.

And you're right that being reinstated as a Spectre generally means that Shepard is associated with the Council.  It doesn't change the fact that the Paragon choice still puts this situation on better terms than Renegades.  Think about it, it makes sense. 

And lets assume most of the crew of the DA die anyway even if you save the ship and the Council. Gosh, I guess the renegade decision is best. Lets assume that by ignoring the DA, the ships concentrating on Sovereign give up and break off against more important Geth ships sooner, and the overall casualties are lower. Again the renegade decision comes out best.  Of course you can prove yourself right if you simply assume you are right.

That's why I only compare the facts of the Paragon/Renegade outcomes as they were presented when I started this arguement.  If you don't want to assume, don't assume.  Renegade choice lost the DA and 10k lives.  Paragon choice lost a fraction of that.  Better outcome = Paragons.  Even if you feel those numbers are inconclusive, you still can't deny that the stats presented favor the Paragons.

You are refusing to admit that you are presenting assumptions as facts.

Those numbers are from the game (unless labeled otherwise), not from my assumptions.

The most important assumption you are making is that by the time of ME3, saving the Council means you will have enough additional ships and personell to make a stategic difference in the war. From what we know from ME2, it could mean that the Asari will have no navy of their own (having turned those duties over to the Turians), so you might only have to win over the Turians to gain the equivalent of both navies. If that is the case, renegades would have larger Turian mobilization (which could well be an advantage since the Turians are better at combat) and still be able to win over the Asari if you wanted to, for bonus points, additional ground troops, additional shipyards, etc.

If the trend continues, then the Paragon choice will remain the "best option" button that accomplishes the objective just as well as the Renegade choice... but with the least amount of lives lost and the most amount of praise.  It doesn't matter what odds are stacked against that... it hasn't so far.

Or if you are following a pro humanity path, it would be easier to get he Asari wiped out completely. That is all speculation, but the point is that assumptions can go both ways. You cannot present them as fact.

I don't, what I'm saying is what happened in the Mass Effect games up to this point.  That's not an assumption, it's 100% fact.

So on the basis of only one potentially major result (rachni), you are declaring paragon the only meaningful choice? One datapoint does not indicate a trend. Even then we don't know anything for certain.

I never said the Paragon choices were the only "meaningful" ones.. they've just always been the "best" ones as far as lives lost, content, and praise is concerned.  Simple as that.  And it's not just 1 of those choices, it's all of them based on what we know so far.

EDIT:  I'd like to see your benefit list as far as lives saved, praise, and content are concerned for Paragon Renegade choices.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 juin 2011 - 07:08 .

[Seboist]

There's no question that the Paragon outcomes are the Hollywood Mary Sue ideal ones. Where's the Alliance brass and people back home giving Shepard flak for sacrificing human lives to save alien bureaucrats? Where's the angry Krogans upset over Shepard pissing on the graves of their ancestors by bringing back the Rachni? Where are the squadmates complaining about Shepard destroying the Collector base?

The whole Renegade path comes off as being a poorly concieved afterthought thrown in to hide the story's linearity. There's no reason why we shouldn't get replacement cameos(especially the human led council) or a mention that killing off criminals like Fist and Helena Blake reduced crime. The Renegade path is essentially the Paragon one with joke dialogue and less content.

Modifié par Seboist, 05 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seboist wrote...

There's no question that the Paragon outcomes are the Hollywood Mary Sue ideal ones. Where's the Alliance brass and people back home giving Shepard flak for sacrificing human lives to save alien bureaucrats? Where's the angry Krogans upset over Shepard pissing on the graves of their ancestors by bringing back the Rachni? Where are the squadmates complaining about Shepard destroying the Collector base?

The whole Renegade path comes off as being poorly concieved afterthought thrown in to hide the story's linearity. There's no reason why we shouldn't get replacement cameos(especially the human led council) or a mention that killing off criminals like Fist and Helena Blake reduced crime. The Renegade path is essentially the Paragon one with joke dialogue and less content.

//look someone else realises that the game favors Paragon choices.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[Rip504]

"Paragon's reward for saving the Rachni would be that a species gets to live. That didn't require an ME2 cameo either... that's an obvious double-standard... "
This is the only statement in your reply to me that made sense. Still saving the Rachni leaves the situation unresolved,and ME2 helps. So what kind of help is hinted at by the Asari? No tell what help the Rachni will give. I didn't say they wouldn't give help,but help could be random information or something else that only slighty helps.

"No, I'm only talking about what has happened thusfar and the implications of that trend continuing go without saying and don't need to be assumed." Sorry this is an assumption,based of the implications of the previous 2 games. I understand that it may continue,but it is still an assumption.

Your case for the council is weak. "Ah Repears,we have dismissed this claim" I just told them it was the Reapers. That's calling me a liar. Accusing me of being tricked by Saren as the Geth were,is laughing in my face. The Spectre status is a politcal gain for the council to help smoooth relations with humanity. An appearance is not a benefit over the Renegade. Although this was the only part I was upset with the Renegade playthrough. The Human council should have made an appearance,but it doesn't make the Paragon playthrough better. That's bs.

This rest should be missing as they are dead. I as a Renegade do not want a bunch of bs encounters telling me I killed something,because the Paragon is getting the opposite encounter. What? Really? The base may very well help the Renegade more in ME3,saying it is better for the Paragon based off of some random squad members comments is also bs.

The Renegade is ment to be a badass,Shoot first,ask later. NO the game is not about equal content,it's about Shepard's story and the Reapers. Consequences for your actions is a bonus to Mass Effect. Not having a Rachni appearance or refrence in ME2 is a consequence of killing the Queen. So you should be happy. And Renegades Do get content,anyone saying "Renegades get nothing" are talking out of their a**.

Modifié par Rip504, 05 juin 2011 - 08:10 .

[kaiki01]

Seboist wrote...

There's no question that the Paragon outcomes are the Hollywood Mary Sue ideal ones. Where's the Alliance brass and people back home giving Shepard flak for sacrificing human lives to save alien bureaucrats? Where's the angry Krogans upset over Shepard pissing on the graves of their ancestors by bringing back the Rachni? Where are the squadmates complaining about Shepard destroying the Collector base?

The whole Renegade path comes off as being a poorly concieved afterthought thrown in to hide the story's linearity. There's no reason why we shouldn't get replacement cameos(especially the human led council) or a mention that killing off criminals like Fist and Helena Blake reduced crime. The Renegade path is essentially the Paragon one with joke dialogue and less content.

Nothing wrong with that so far as I can see

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Alliance/Humanity is one of the Citadel races... and Humanity has a seat at the Council.  The Alliance is not a part of the Council.  You've met the Council... they're alien besides Anderson/Udina.  And Anderson is "Counselor" now (if you elect him).  Here's the situation regarding the trial:  an Alliance base destroyed a relay destroying a massive amount of Batarians.  The Alliance has a human matter to resolve.  No one else knows for sure who was responsible for the destroyed relay and Batarian deaths (unless someone recognized the station as an Alliance station) but the Batarians will be looking for blood.  Common sense?  Yeah.[/quote]

So you are saying... the Alliance is a council member, but not really. The Council conists of 'a bunch of aliens' plus an alliance Councellor whom you list separately because you feel he doesn't count for some reason.

Oh and you feel that spectre status for some reason doesn't protect against actions that affect the Alliance and that war between the Alliance (who are a Council member) and the Batarians wouldn't be a Council matter, even though the Alliance are a Council member. That is sort of like saying that if a CIA agent does something in the line of duty that puts Seattle at risk that it is a municipal matter.

Do Spectres have authority in Alliance space or not? If not, then how do they have authority anywhere? Not to mention the incident didn't even occur in Alliance space.

[quote] Think about it a little more... the Council is not there at all to do anything to you.  Your Spectre status was officially reinstated, anyone with access to a computer to look you up would be informed.  It's official, you're as much of a Spectre as you ever were... operating outside of council jurisdiction doesn't change that.[/quote]

What you think the Council arrest people in person? C-sec and the other Spectres only exist for show? The Council don't have to be there in person to have you arrested. The President of the United States doesn't arrest people either, nor does Congress. They write the laws, not enforce them. Judges don't enforce laws either, they adjudicate them and the actual enforcement is done by baliffs, law enforcement and the penal system.

[quote]And you're right that being reinstated as a Spectre generally means that Shepard is associated with the Council.  It doesn't change the fact that the Paragon choice still puts this situation on better terms than Renegades.  Think about it, it makes sense. [/quote]

It only makes sense in your own mind. Frankly at this point I think you are trolling.



[quote]That's why I only compare the facts of the Paragon/Renegade outcomes as they were presented when I started this arguement.  If you don't want to assume, don't assume.  Renegade choice lost the DA and 10k lives.  Paragon choice lost a fraction of that.  Better outcome = Paragons.  Even if you feel those numbers are inconclusive, you still can't deny that the stats presented favor the Paragons.[/quote]

THOSE RESULTS ARE ASSUMPTIONS. They only seem to favour paragons because you are misrepresenting them. There isn't enough information to reach the conclusions you are reaching. Shepard isn't asked the same questions in both situations.


[quote]If the trend continues, then the Paragon choice will remain the "best option" button that accomplishes the objective just as well as the Renegade choice... but with the least amount of lives lost and the most amount of praise.  It doesn't matter what odds are stacked against that... it hasn't so far.[/quote]

You have yet to prove a trend.

[quote]I don't, what I'm saying is what happened in the Mass Effect games up to this point.  That's not an assumption, it's 100% fact.[/quote]

So, you aren't saying they are facts, just saying they are facts.... right......

[qutoe]I never said the Paragon choices were the only "meaningful" ones.. they've just always been the "best" ones as far as lives lost, content, and praise is concerned.  Simple as that.  And it's not just 1 of those choices, it's all of them based on what we know so far.

EDIT:  I'd like to see your benefit list as far as lives saved, praise, and content are concerned for Paragon Renegade choices.[/quote]

"All of them" is 1, maybe 2 choices (Rachni and Collector base). No other decisions have any meaningful effect on anything. The counterexamples I have given you conveniently declared 'not major', just as you declared the Council you saved thumbing their nose at you as some sort of paragon benefit. 

Hard to believe you are not trolling at this point.

[Rip504]

Also I want to point out that the "Human council" does not need to reinstate Shepard's Spectre status,because a "human council" doesn't need to smooth relations with humanity.
Shepard simply chose not to save the council,and agreed with Udina a human coucnil is the best new solution. Udina & humanity create the new council. The Human council owes Shepard nothing.Not even their thanks. I was disappointed that the human council didn't make an appearance,but I understand why they did not have to.

IMO

Edit: Also remember after all you did in ME1,Udina locks down the Normandy,and stops Shepard. He did it in ME1,why are you suprised he pulled it again in ME2. Udina was never a fan of Shepard,and Shepard's communications with the council.
When you speak to Udina/Anderson in ME2 and they tell you the new council will not see you,this is actually a lie (in a sense) as Udina/Anderson is a member of that council. So in a way a member of the human council does make an appearance in ME2, even if it is to tell you the rest of the council doesn't  have time for you.

IMO

Modifié par Rip504, 05 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[Senior Cinco]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote..
It only really matters if you actually role-play and notice that trend...  if you want the most content out of your game...

I agree with that. I said, aside from immersion and dialog. I guess I'm just on the fence about one being favored over another. I have lost the feel of the RPG gameplay, because of several playthroughs. Granted, I still play around with the dialog ( romances and what have you ), but it's like "ehh...whatever"  I feeel that the game should reflect more from your choices. No matter, if your playing Par, Ren, Paragade or Renagon. I'm looking for something other than cameos and emails.

IMO the idel RPG has a balance of 50 / 50.( 50% RPG and 50% Action ) My latest playthroughs have been more for the Action, as the RPG part seems to be lacking anything that makes much of an impact.  

[Seboist]

Senior Cinco wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote..
It only really matters if you actually role-play and notice that trend...  if you want the most content out of your game...

I agree with that. I said, aside from immersion and dialog. I guess I'm just on the fence about one being favored over another. I have lost the feel of the RPG gameplay, because of several playthroughs. Granted, I still play around with the dialog ( romances and what have you ), but it's like "ehh...whatever"  I feeel that the game should reflect more from your choices. No matter, if your playing Par, Ren, Paragade or Renagon. I'm looking for something other than cameos and emails.

IMO the idel RPG has a balance of 50 / 50.( 50% RPG and 50% Action ) My latest playthroughs have been more for the Action, as the RPG part seems to be lacking anything that makes much of an impact.  

It's incredible but Dragon Age Origins by itself has more real player decided outcomes and content than the entire Mass Effect series. There you get alternate levels,enemies and allies depending on your decisions.

[Senior Cinco]

Seboist wrote...
It's incredible but Dragon Age Origins by itself has more real player decided outcomes and content than the entire Mass Effect series. There you get alternate levels,enemies and allies depending on your decisions.

And the award goes to....Tell him what he wins Jonny...

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Seboist wrote...

There's no question that the Paragon outcomes are the Hollywood Mary Sue ideal ones. Where's the Alliance brass and people back home giving Shepard flak for sacrificing human lives to save alien bureaucrats? Where's the angry Krogans upset over Shepard pissing on the graves of their ancestors by bringing back the Rachni? Where are the squadmates complaining about Shepard destroying the Collector base?

The whole Renegade path comes off as being a poorly concieved afterthought thrown in to hide the story's linearity. There's no reason why we shouldn't get replacement cameos(especially the human led council) or a mention that killing off criminals like Fist and Helena Blake reduced crime. The Renegade path is essentially the Paragon one with joke dialogue and less content.

Sacrificing human lives to save the Council got the Alliance a seat on the Council making the Alliance much more powerful and influencial the loss of life would be easily forgiven when they see their place in the galactic community has improved 10 fold.

The Krogan don't know about the Rachni decision but like I've said before the Krogan would have a bigger problem working with the Turians and Salarians than they would the Rachni, the Rachni didn't spay and neuter them.

Who cares what your squadmates think? You're Commander Shepard who cares if someone is there to say "Hey good job there."

I do agree that there should be some Renegade decisions should have positive results that the Pragons wouldn't get. Like that Eclipse merc that the Renengades kill ends up being the best thing because she was a cold blooded murderer.

[DPSSOC]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Sacrificing human lives to save the Council got the Alliance a seat on the Council making the Alliance much more powerful and influencial the loss of life would be easily forgiven when they see their place in the galactic community has improved 10 fold.

I might be remembering this wrong but if you save the Council isn't the human representative essentially ignored?  Anderson (if chosen) points out they don't listen to him and if I'm not mistaken there's a new report about the other Councillors voting him down when he tries to do...something memory's a little vague.  So I'd think people would be even more upset since the one thing they got in exchange for those lives is essentially worthless.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

So you are saying... the Alliance is a council member, but not really. The Council conists of 'a bunch of aliens' plus an alliance Councellor whom you list separately because you feel he doesn't count for some reason.

Oh and you feel that spectre status for some reason doesn't protect against actions that affect the Alliance and that war between the Alliance (who are a Council member) and the Batarians wouldn't be a Council matter, even though the Alliance are a Council member. That is sort of like saying that if a CIA agent does something in the line of duty that puts Seattle at risk that it is a municipal matter.

Do Spectres have authority in Alliance space or not? If not, then how do they have authority anywhere? Not to mention the incident didn't even occur in Alliance space.

Lol, no.  The Alliance does not equal Humanity.  And that's a "former-alliance" Councellor... he had to give that up (his position) to become a Councellor.  That should hopefully clear up your second point.  The Alliance isn't a part of the Council... Humanity is... they are not the same.  Now, Anderson can still speak for the Alliance to the Council, but the Alliance itself has no seat at the Council.

Spectres have authority where the Council has authority.  They're the people who "represent the Council's power and authority."

What you think the Council arrest people in person? C-sec and the other Spectres only exist for show? The Council don't have to be there in person to have you arrested. The President of the United States doesn't arrest people either, nor does Congress. They write the laws, not enforce them. Judges don't enforce laws either, they adjudicate them and the actual enforcement is done by baliffs, law enforcement and the penal system.

Think back at Saren (the rogue spectre).  There's a case made before any punishment (such as an arrest) is given to a Spectre.  Something like that would require Shepard's presence as well as the Council's when available.  They have the final say on Spectres and have thusfar always taken personal time to deal with them.  Spectres are also above the law and have a license to kill if the reason is strong enough... which further explains why they'd have a trial before passing any judgement (to hear the Spectre's side of the story).

Also consider that Shepard was killed weeks after the ending of Mass Effect 1...  and the Council (whoever they are) sent him to fight Geth during that time... which means the order was given without Shepard (the hero of the Battle of the Citadel) ever, ever seeing this new Council... or he saw them already and not seeing them in Mass Effect 2 is even more silly. 

It only makes sense in your own mind. Frankly at this point I think you are trolling.

Then break it down.  Here's all I am saying:

1.  Paragon choices are based on the short-term "moral" right of that given moment.
2.  Paragon choices have thusfar lead to an outcome (regardless of the odds) that has the same basic mission success as Renegades, but also has more content, more praise/validation, and lower casualties than Renegade decisions based on all the facts presented in the game.

Show me where this is wrong and lets put this to rest.  Hopefully then you'll realise that this is far from trolling. 

THOSE RESULTS ARE ASSUMPTIONS. They only seem to favour paragons because you are misrepresenting them. There isn't enough information to reach the conclusions you are reaching. Shepard isn't asked the same questions in both situations.

Those results are IN THE ACTUAL GAME.  So THEY ARE NOT ASSUMPTIONS, lol.  I'm not sure how you're misunderstanding that point.  It can't be an assumption if it's in the actual game.  Again, if you feel the the only information presented thusfar is inconclusive, then it still doesn't change the fact that the information AVAILABLE favors the Paragon choice... that's just how it is.

From now on, say why I'm incorrect in this instead of just saying I'm incorrect... show me what the game really says.

You have yet to prove a trend.

Think about it.

So, you aren't saying they are facts, just saying they are facts.... right......

Slow down and think about what I'm saying.  The choices, reactions, content, etc. are all what's in the actual game.  You can see it for yourself... that's what I mean by 100% fact.  They're there, lol.  We can talk later if you need to take a break or something... other people get it... not sure why you don't.

"All of them" is 1, maybe 2 choices (Rachni and Collector base). No other decisions have any meaningful effect on anything. The counterexamples I have given you conveniently declared 'not major', just as you declared the Council you saved thumbing their nose at you as some sort of paragon benefit. 

Hard to believe you are not trolling at this point.

You're not getting it, lol.  I've said this to you before... I am not talking about "meaningful" effects on things.  I'm talking about Paragon favoritism in the results of decisions.  It may sound like I'm trolling if you don't read what I say and respond to that... no wonder you're getting frustrated, lol

If you don't feel a Paragon choice had a more favorable outcome than the Renegade equivalent... show me where that is and lets discuss what's there and compare mission outcome, lives lost (that's recorded for sure), reaction by others, and content amount based on what the games have presented thusfar.   

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 juin 2011 - 12:45 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

They are not ignored because they aren't respected they're ignored because Anderson is supporting Shepard's theory on the Reapers being behind the abductions and its been the Council's stance that the Reapers are a myth and that Shepard working with a terrorist orginisation is deeply troubling. Outside of the Collector problem relations with the other specie has never been better the Turians now see us as equals, they now do joint patrols with humans where they use to do it alone and the they are thinking about paying more reperation to human families for the First Contact War. As the Codex states clearly an Aliance where Shepard saved the Council is seen as a savior and has gotten completely undermineded almost all claims that Humanity doesn't deserve its spot.

A sacrificed Council on the oposite end is hated by everyone and is trusted by no one.

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

There's no question that the Paragon outcomes are the Hollywood Mary Sue ideal ones. Where's the Alliance brass and people back home giving Shepard flak for sacrificing human lives to save alien bureaucrats? Where's the angry Krogans upset over Shepard pissing on the graves of their ancestors by bringing back the Rachni? Where are the squadmates complaining about Shepard destroying the Collector base?

It is unclear if they know at all. Certainly Wrex wouldn't exactly be able to go back to the Krogan and say 'hey guys, we found Rachni but let them go.' The Council certainly hasn't announced it publicly. They are feigning ignorance and promising to 'investigate' Rachni ships spotted.

The whole Renegade path comes off as being a poorly concieved afterthought thrown in to hide the story's linearity. There's no reason why we shouldn't get replacement cameos(especially the human led council) or a mention that killing off criminals like Fist and Helena Blake reduced crime. The Renegade path is essentially the Paragon one with joke dialogue and less content.

I don't know. The "Ah yes, Reapers" line is pretty annoying to Paragons. So is having to ask about reinstatement (and Shepard asks as if he doesn't even want it. The actual line is 'I won't have to fill out reports, will I?', which is pretty much a renegade style response).

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Lol, no.  The Alliance does not equal Humanity.  And that's a "former-alliance" Councellor... he had to give that up (his position) to become a Councellor.  That should hopefully clear up your second point.  The Alliance isn't a part of the Council... Humanity is... they are not the same.  Now, Anderson can still speak for the Alliance to the Council, but the Alliance itself has no seat at the Council.

Spectres have authority where the Council has authority.  They're the people who "represent the Council's power and authority."

There is no 'Humanity' government. There is the Alliance and there are independant human or predominantly human worlds. It was the Alliance petitioning to join the Council. You really are just making this up as you go along.

I am not even going to bother with the rest of your post. I suspect you are trolling, but whether you are or not, I am not bothering to debate this further with you.