904 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Those have no effect on outcome, lives lost, or praise given compared to Paragon choices. You may have less content, which is consistent with the arguement.

That still doesn't change the fact that Paragons have the best outcomes when lives lost, content, and praise are concerned. It hurts the game knowing that choosing the Paragon option will result in that... really a shame... because now, the notion of having a tough choice is gone.

It also kinda defeats the point of comparing choices and outcomes.  Paragons will be able to smile the most about their choices while everyone else talks more about what wasn't there or what they lost... that's basically what the choices in the games have boiled down to.

That's my only real issue with the Mass Effect series.

Lack of praise goes without saying....of course the renegade is going to receive much less praise, thats a given and to be expected.

Have you watched the new ME3 clips? There were a number of items I noticed that with good chance will not be in my paragon game....missing content for me I'm guessing....The walking battle tanks Cerberus use, which Shep can also use if s/he kills the occupant...I noticed the battle tanks have the same swirling blue disc on their backs as the baby reaper had on it's front, I destroyed the base, so will I have access to these tanks? Same said for the Geth, I noticed Geth being fought in that footage, I shut down Overlord, so less content for me?...It's all relative Mr Gogeta, paragons have certain extra footage/game play in some areas, renegades have certain extra footage/game play in other areas, it will balance out.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Golden Owl wrote...

Lack of praise goes without saying....of course the renegade is going to receive much less praise, thats a given and to be expected.

For ME1, it was less praise, true.  For ME2... it was none at all. (... at all).

Have you watched the new ME3 clips? There were a number of items I noticed that with good chance will not be in my paragon game....missing content for me I'm guessing....The walking battle tanks Cerberus use, which Shep can also use if s/he kills the occupant...I noticed the battle tanks have the same swirling blue disc on their backs as the baby reaper had on it's front, I destroyed the base, so will I have access to these tanks? Same said for the Geth, I noticed Geth being fought in that footage, I shut down Overlord, so less content for me?...It's all relative Mr Gogeta, paragons have certain extra footage/game play in some areas, renegades have certain extra footage/game play in other areas, it will balance out.

TIM was able to study the base regardless.  So any tech you run into I highly doubt Paragons will be missing.  So far the Paragon choices have still won out.  There's been no positive feedback to those pivotal Renegade choices yet... and if the trend continues, that balance will not happen.

If there's extra footage/gameplay for Renegade choices I'd love to see it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 08 juin 2011 - 01:26 .

[DPSSOC]

Golden Owl wrote...
Though by the same token, a number of renegade trigger options in ME2, make their battles easier.

I've seen this come up before and I don't get it.  The most people I can recall a Renegade Interrupt taking out is 4 (3 grunts and a Lieutenant) which, going the long way, takes roughly 10 seconds on Normal.  The interrupt takes longer than that.

Golden Owl wrote...
And too many conclusions are still being made about a game none of us has played yet, we really don't know how it's all going to pan out...I do not see BW making the game less enjoyable or fulfilling for renegades.

We've seen how decisions in ME1 panned out in ME2.  This, combined with released info about ME3, allow us to make reasonable conclusions about how decisions will pan out in ME3.  In ME2 Renegade decisions got their desired effect (Human led Council, Dead Rachni) and an unwanted downside (Bad Relations, Lost Ally).  Paragon decisions got their desired effect (Better Relations with the Aliens, Extra Ally), but don't seem to have any downside.  This can be projected into ME3; Renegades will get their desired outcome (New Tech from CB) and an unwanted downside (stronger enemies from CB) and Paragons will get their desired outcome (Super Awesome Friendship Fleet of Everybody) with no downside.

Understandably, this bothers people.

[Golden Owl]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Lack of praise goes without saying....of course the renegade is going to receive much less praise, thats a given and to be expected.

For ME1, it was less praise, true.  For ME2... it was none at all. (... at all).

This I am surprised at....not even certain squaddies? Krogans?

Have you watched the new ME3 clips? There were a number of items I noticed that with good chance will not be in my paragon game....missing content for me I'm guessing....The walking battle tanks Cerberus use, which Shep can also use if s/he kills the occupant...I noticed the battle tanks have the same swirling blue disc on their backs as the baby reaper had on it's front, I destroyed the base, so will I have access to these tanks? Same said for the Geth, I noticed Geth being fought in that footage, I shut down Overlord, so less content for me?...It's all relative Mr Gogeta, paragons have certain extra footage/game play in some areas, renegades have certain extra footage/game play in other areas, it will balance out.

TIM was able to study the base regardless.  So any tech you run into I highly doubt Paragons will be missing.  So far the Paragon choices have still won out.  There's been no positive feedback to those pivotal Renegade choices yet... and if the trend continues, that balance will not happen.

This is information I am unaware of....where is it stated TIM studying the base regardless?

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Those have no effect on outcome, lives lost, or praise given compared to Paragon choices. You may have less content, which is consistent with the arguement.

That still doesn't change the fact that Paragons have the best outcomes when lives lost, content, and praise are concerned. It hurts the game knowing that choosing the Paragon option will result in that... really a shame... because now, the notion of having a tough choice is gone.

It also kinda defeats the point of comparing choices and outcomes.  Paragons will be able to smile the most about their choices while everyone else talks more about what wasn't there or what they lost... that's basically what the choices in the games have boiled down to.

That's my only real issue with the Mass Effect series.

Lack of praise goes without saying....of course the renegade is going to receive much less praise, thats a given and to be expected.

Have you watched the new ME3 clips? There were a number of items I noticed that with good chance will not be in my paragon game....missing content for me I'm guessing....The walking battle tanks Cerberus use, which Shep can also use if s/he kills the occupant...I noticed the battle tanks have the same swirling blue disc on their backs as the baby reaper had on it's front, I destroyed the base, so will I have access to these tanks? Same said for the Geth, I noticed Geth being fought in that footage, I shut down Overlord, so less content for me?...It's all relative Mr Gogeta, paragons have certain extra footage/game play in some areas, renegades have certain extra footage/game play in other areas, it will balance out.

I don't see why Renegades shouldn't be getting praise for their actions as there's a whole bunch of them that benefit somebody.

Sacrificed the Council? The Alliance brass, human led council or sailors on those ships praise Shep for refusing to sacrifice human lives for alien bureaucrats.

Killed the Rachni Queen? Have Krogans praising Shep for honoring the sacrifice and memory of their ancestors.

Killed criminals like Helena Blake and Fist? Have Captain Bailey mention that crime has gone down since their deaths.

Instead we get less references, less content and hardly any indicator that our choices had any real benefit. It's as if none of those sub-plots ever happened.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Actually there's nothing saying Renegade choices will lead to new tech from CB. Especially any new tech that Paragons won't be able to equally recieve.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Golden Owl wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Lack of praise goes without saying....of course the renegade is going to receive much less praise, thats a given and to be expected.

For ME1, it was less praise, true.  For ME2... it was none at all. (... at all).

This I am surprised at....not even certain squaddies? Krogans?

Have you watched the new ME3 clips? There were a number of items I noticed that with good chance will not be in my paragon game....missing content for me I'm guessing....The walking battle tanks Cerberus use, which Shep can also use if s/he kills the occupant...I noticed the battle tanks have the same swirling blue disc on their backs as the baby reaper had on it's front, I destroyed the base, so will I have access to these tanks? Same said for the Geth, I noticed Geth being fought in that footage, I shut down Overlord, so less content for me?...It's all relative Mr Gogeta, paragons have certain extra footage/game play in some areas, renegades have certain extra footage/game play in other areas, it will balance out.

TIM was able to study the base regardless.  So any tech you run into I highly doubt Paragons will be missing.  So far the Paragon choices have still won out.  There's been no positive feedback to those pivotal Renegade choices yet... and if the trend continues, that balance will not happen.

This is information I am unaware of....where is it stated TIM studying the base regardless?

It's in one of the Mass Effect novels, Mass Effect: Retribution I think it is.

[DPSSOC]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Actually there's nothing saying Renegade choices will lead to new tech from CB. Especially any new tech that Paragons won't be able to equally recieve.

I'm simply making projections based on established evidence, whatever we want to say about how Renegade choices were handled in ME2 we did get everything we set out to get, we just happened to get a grain or two (or 5,000 depending on how you see it) of salt thrown in to the bargain.

[Golden Owl]

DPSSOC wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
Though by the same token, a number of renegade trigger options in ME2, make their battles easier.

I've seen this come up before and I don't get it.  The most people I can recall a Renegade Interrupt taking out is 4 (3 grunts and a Lieutenant) which, going the long way, takes roughly 10 seconds on Normal.  The interrupt takes longer than that.

I recently ran a partial renegade game and was personally surpised at how much easier it made some of those battles...and the added awesomeness of some of those scenes, that gotta be worth something.

Golden Owl wrote...
And too many conclusions are still being made about a game none of us has played yet, we really don't know how it's all going to pan out...I do not see BW making the game less enjoyable or fulfilling for renegades.

We've seen how decisions in ME1 panned out in ME2.  This, combined with released info about ME3, allow us to make reasonable conclusions about how decisions will pan out in ME3.  In ME2 Renegade decisions got their desired effect (Human led Council, Dead Rachni) and an unwanted downside (Bad Relations, Lost Ally).  Paragon decisions got their desired effect (Better Relations with the Aliens, Extra Ally), but don't seem to have any downside.  This can be projected into ME3; Renegades will get their desired outcome (New Tech from CB) and an unwanted downside (stronger enemies from CB) and Paragons will get their desired outcome (Super Awesome Friendship Fleet of Everybody) with no downside.

Understandably, this bothers people.

I don't know, I am personally really expecting trouble between the Krogan and Rachni and the Geth and Quarians....thats just what I'm thinking anyway.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Montezuma IV wrote...

Why do you want to punish the Good Guy? You a sadist or something? >_>

Shepard is a "good guy" no matter what he does (be it hero or anti-hero). We're just talking about the notion of Paragon and Renegade choices.

DPSSOC wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Actually there's nothing saying Renegade choices will lead to new tech from CB. Especially any new tech that Paragons won't be able to equally recieve.

I'm simply making projections based on established evidence, whatever we want to say about how Renegade choices were handled in ME2 we did get everything we set out to get, we just happened to get a grain or two (or 5,000 depending on how you see it) of salt thrown in to the bargain.

Either choice gets what is initially wanted at its bare minimum. The issue is still content, lives lost, praise given/feedback in general.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 08 juin 2011 - 01:42 .

[DPSSOC]

Montezuma IV wrote...

Why do you want to punish the Good Guy? You a sadist or something? >_>

Because victory without cost is boring.  What made defeating Saren all the sweeter in ME1 (for me anyway) was that I lost somebody I liked to bring him down.  He took something from me and I was sure as hell going to make him pay for it.

[DPSSOC]

Montezuma IV wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...
Why do you want to punish the Good Guy? You a sadist or something? >_>

Because victory without cost is boring.  What made defeating Saren all the sweeter in ME1 (for me anyway) was that I lost somebody I liked to bring him down.  He took something from me and I was sure as hell going to make him pay for it.

Uh....I have good karma. What I marked in bold was an example of your sadism, btw.

Actually what you bolded seems more an example of masochism to me (I enjoyed it more because I suffered).  What I've italicized would be a better example of sadism and that's really just revenge (revenge not always being a sadistic impulse).  If I'd said I wanted to brutally torture him for what he'd done that would be sadism.

What I meant though is that achieving a goal you have to really work for, and particularly one that causes you to lose something along the way, is far more rewarding than just having what you want handed to you.  A dollar earned is better than a dollar given.

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Those have no effect on outcome, lives lost, or praise given compared to Paragon choices. You may have less content, which is consistent with the arguement.

That still doesn't change the fact that Paragons have the best outcomes when lives lost, content, and praise are concerned. It hurts the game knowing that choosing the Paragon option will result in that... really a shame... because now, the notion of having a tough choice is gone.

It also kinda defeats the point of comparing choices and outcomes.  Paragons will be able to smile the most about their choices while everyone else talks more about what wasn't there or what they lost... that's basically what the choices in the games have boiled down to.

That's my only real issue with the Mass Effect series.

Lack of praise goes without saying....of course the renegade is going to receive much less praise, thats a given and to be expected.

Have you watched the new ME3 clips? There were a number of items I noticed that with good chance will not be in my paragon game....missing content for me I'm guessing....The walking battle tanks Cerberus use, which Shep can also use if s/he kills the occupant...I noticed the battle tanks have the same swirling blue disc on their backs as the baby reaper had on it's front, I destroyed the base, so will I have access to these tanks? Same said for the Geth, I noticed Geth being fought in that footage, I shut down Overlord, so less content for me?...It's all relative Mr Gogeta, paragons have certain extra footage/game play in some areas, renegades have certain extra footage/game play in other areas, it will balance out.

I don't see why Renegades shouldn't be getting praise for their actions as there's a whole bunch of them that benefit somebody.

Sacrificed the Council? The Alliance brass, human led council or sailors on those ships praise Shep for refusing to sacrifice human lives for alien bureaucrats.

Killed the Rachni Queen? Have Krogans praising Shep for honoring the sacrifice and memory of their ancestors.

Killed criminals like Helena Blake and Fist? Have Captain Bailey mention that crime has gone down since their deaths.

Instead we get less references, less content and hardly any indicator that our choices had any real benefit. It's as if none of those sub-plots ever happened.

Sacrificing the Council: I think it's way, way beyond some bureacrats, I didn't care much for them either, saving them = political stability to me....But also importantly there were also a large number of Turian War ships at stake and possibly a Dreadnought of good use in the upcoming battle....As soldiers, I guess I would expect the crew's of the Alliance war ships to expect that....Thats my take anyway.

Killing the Racni Queen: I see your point here, though wasn't the information regarding the Rachnis Queen kept under wraps? If not, paragon Shep should have received a caning from the Krogan, at least such as the comments Wrex makes if you take him with you on that mission...And yes, renegades should be honored by the Krogan....Though as far as I'm aware, it was never made public knowledge.

Killing Criminals: I agree with you

[Golden Owl]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Lack of praise goes without saying....of course the renegade is going to receive much less praise, thats a given and to be expected.

For ME1, it was less praise, true.  For ME2... it was none at all. (... at all).

This I am surprised at....not even certain squaddies? Krogans?

Have you watched the new ME3 clips? There were a number of items I noticed that with good chance will not be in my paragon game....missing content for me I'm guessing....The walking battle tanks Cerberus use, which Shep can also use if s/he kills the occupant...I noticed the battle tanks have the same swirling blue disc on their backs as the baby reaper had on it's front, I destroyed the base, so will I have access to these tanks? Same said for the Geth, I noticed Geth being fought in that footage, I shut down Overlord, so less content for me?...It's all relative Mr Gogeta, paragons have certain extra footage/game play in some areas, renegades have certain extra footage/game play in other areas, it will balance out.

TIM was able to study the base regardless.  So any tech you run into I highly doubt Paragons will be missing.  So far the Paragon choices have still won out.  There's been no positive feedback to those pivotal Renegade choices yet... and if the trend continues, that balance will not happen.

This is information I am unaware of....where is it stated TIM studying the base regardless?

It's in one of the Mass Effect novels, Mass Effect: Retribution I think it is.

Now that just sucks......pretty much makes my destroying the base null and void....now I am wondering at the point of destroying it.

[Golden Owl]

DPSSOC wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

Why do you want to punish the Good Guy? You a sadist or something? >_>

Because victory without cost is boring.  What made defeating Saren all the sweeter in ME1 (for me anyway) was that I lost somebody I liked to bring him down.  He took something from me and I was sure as hell going to make him pay for it.

If you feel that is how it plays out for paragons then...don't play paragon, simple.

[DPSSOC]

Golden Owl wrote...
Now that just sucks......pretty much makes my destroying the base null and void....now I am wondering at the point of destroying it.

Well it's possible they get more out of it if you don't destroy it, maybe the uber tanks you spoke of (can't recall what they're called I want to say Atlas) have an extra layer of protection if you saved the base.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Golden Owl wrote...

Sacrificing the Council: I think it's way, way beyond some bureacrats, I didn't care much for them either, saving them = political stability to me....But also importantly there were also a large number of Turian War ships at stake and possibly a Dreadnought of good use in the upcoming battle....As soldiers, I guess I would expect the crew's of the Alliance war ships to expect that....Thats my take anyway.

The problem there is we have a Reaper that could regain control of the station to bring his legion of Reapers and wipe out the galaxy at any moment.  This Reaper is also already at the place where he can call them over.  Joker was talking about sending "the calvary" in to save the Council while Sovereign causes the destruction of everyone including the Council.  Going after the Council put everyone (including the Council) in danger.

Politicians can be replaced, extinction has no backups.  To think that no one understood that in-game is a little far-fetched. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Golden Owl wrote...

Now that just sucks......pretty much makes my destroying the base null and void....now I am wondering at the point of destroying it.

To reap the benefits and unanimous praise without suffering as many losses (if any) as usual for a Paragon choice.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 08 juin 2011 - 02:10 .

[DPSSOC]

Golden Owl wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

Why do you want to punish the Good Guy? You a sadist or something? >_>

Because victory without cost is boring.  What made defeating Saren all the sweeter in ME1 (for me anyway) was that I lost somebody I liked to bring him down.  He took something from me and I was sure as hell going to make him pay for it.

If you feel that is how it plays out for paragons then...don't play paragon, simple.

I don't, and I don't want to play Paragon or Renegade I just want to play, and I'd prefer if there wasn't a massive difference between how one choice I thought was best and another play out.  If I spare the Rachni and hear not a word of disapproval despite the fact I know that people know about it, but hear people going on about the Council as if I'd snuck into their homes and murdered their entire family in their sleep it makes for a rather bizarre universe I'm wondering through.

[Golden Owl]

DPSSOC wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
Now that just sucks......pretty much makes my destroying the base null and void....now I am wondering at the point of destroying it.

Well it's possible they get more out of it if you don't destroy it, maybe the uber tanks you spoke of (can't recall what they're called I want to say Atlas) have an extra layer of protection if you saved the base.

True....still kind of a pointless feel far beyond having the opportunity to give TIM the bird. I was honestly expecting not to be dealing with the 'Atlas'......in ME3....If your guess is right, that would make it harder for the renegade to oust the occupant, but gives the renegade a stronger weapon to use themselves and the reverse for paragons.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For the record, it's also never said how many people are on the Destiny Ascension or how many people will be sent in when making the choice. Liara also says that the fleet would suffer heavy casualties trying to save it and at that time, they were basically the last hope against Sovereign.

Just saying...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 08 juin 2011 - 02:15 .