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Punishing Paragons


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#151
CroGamer002

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AdmiralCheez wrote...


Fist: This cameo is hard to get because you have to be a paragon AND Wrex can't be in your party.  And, as hard as it is to get, it's one somewhat goofy conversation.  I've actually never even had him in my game because of Wrex, and after watching it on Youtube, I can't say I'm missing out.


But, that's BEST cameo!

Rodam Expeditions Guy: Sucks that you can't get the store discount, but I think having a turian be a colossal ass to you is a good indicator of the galaxy you're creating--more power for humans, but less holding hands.


You can get discount from him even if you killed Council.
Hell, it's really fun to be a dick to him.

#152
Seboist

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There was plenty of logical replacement cameos they could have added without too much effort.

Shiala dead? Lizbeth Baynham or her mother (instead of the generic colonist we get)
Rachni Queen dead? Noveria Researcher (that one Volus comes to mind)
Rana Thanoptis dead? One of Kirahee's men spying on Okeer.
Giana dead? Matsuo
Fist dead? A brief mention from Bailey that his death reduced crime or something
Helena Blake dead? Something similar to above.

It just reeks of laziness from BW not do any of this. Wrex(rest his soul) was the only one who was given the dignity of a decent replacement.

#153
CroGamer002

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Seboist wrote...

There was plenty of logical replacement cameos they could have added without too much effort.

Shiala dead? Lizbeth Baynham or her mother (instead of the generic colonist we get) they were not effected by spore
Rachni Queen dead? Noveria Researcher (that one Volus comes to mind) you do know he went nuts because his friend was killed? Also Noveria went to cover up Rachni existance there
Rana Thanoptis dead? One of Kirahee's men spying on Okeer. ???
Giana dead? Matsuo why? It makes no sense
Fist dead? A brief mention from Bailey that his death reduced crime or something he's just a petty criminal and we have Blue Sun and Ellias Khelam. Also he goes to Omega, pointless
Helena Blake dead? Something similar to above. Same as above

It just reeks of laziness from BW not do any of this. Wrex(rest his soul) was the only one who was given the dignity of a decent replacement.


You just listed pointless camoes that make no sense to show up.

#154
AdmiralCheez

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Seboist wrote...

Shiala dead? Lizbeth Baynham or her mother (instead of the generic colonist we get)

But Lizbeth is alive for everyone--why not just use her in the first place?

Rachni Queen dead? Noveria Researcher (that one Volus comes to mind)

It is possible to skip that segment of Noveria (I did accidentally on my first playthrough).

Rana Thanoptis dead? One of Kirahee's men spying on Okeer.

Kirahee's men could all be dead.

Giana dead? Matsuo

But why would she be on Illium?

Fist dead? A brief mention from Bailey that his death reduced crime or something
Helena Blake dead? Something similar to above.

That would feel too forced.  I think a news report would have been more natural.

It just reeks of laziness from BW not do any of this. Wrex(rest his soul) was the only one who was given the dignity of a decent replacement.

See, here's the thing--a lot of these "replacements" would feel incredibly forced.  That's kind of how I felt with Wreav and ye olde generic colonist.  Yeah, I know Wreav was necessary for story reasons, but honestly?  I'm glad I didn't get to meet the new Council; I have no connection to them and would rather talk to Anderson and Udina anyway.

#155
Moiaussi

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What is the big issue with a generic colonist? The encounter is pretty much the same either way.

Also, it may yet be that the paragon approach there is the bad path and that by not insisting on the additional more invasive tests in ME2, there will be a thorian spore problem to deal with in the middle of the Reaper invasion.

As for Matsuo, what would she be doing off of Noveria? She seemed like she liked being in charge of security there. If she was encountered on the citadel or whereever, I would explect it was independant of the bit with Giana.

Most of these are minor cameos. Why are they issues at all?

#156
AdmiralCheez

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Mesina2 wrote...

But, that's BEST cameo!

Yeah, it is pretty funny, isn't it? I actually tried to save him in one playthrough, but I goofed it up and he got Wrex'd.

You can get discount from him even if you killed Council.
Hell, it's really fun to be a dick to him.

I did not know this.

Looks like renegades aren't being cheated after all!

#157
AdmiralCheez

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Moiaussi wrote...

What is the big issue with a generic colonist? The encounter is pretty much the same either way.

Yeah, Shiala is generic as hell, anyway.

Most of these are minor cameos. Why are they issues at all?

Because some people are too damn picky.

#158
Guest_Nyoka_*

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It would have been neat going to Tuchanka and find the Krogan in the middle of a civil war, with the Urdnot clan getting the worst of it due to lack of leadership. Then the death of Wrex would have mattered, and I think it would be a more entertaining scenario than the actual Tuchanka where everybody is just standing around.

#159
AdmiralCheez

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@Nyoka: There will be plenty of civil war for everyone in ME3.

And standing around was what all the cool kids were doing in ME2, anyway.

#160
Skarwael

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AdmiralCheez wrote...
Yeah, Shiala is generic as hell, anyway.


BLASPHEMY.


:pinched:

#161
Someone With Mass

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Lack of cameos and certain choices being made into a joke from a meta perspective(sacrifice the council).

Okay, let's talk cameos:

Gianna Parasini: A renegade can still get this cameo by intimidating Lorik to testify.  You only miss out if you intentioanlly go out of your way to get her killed.  Also, I THINK paragons can miss out on it too if they got the garage pass from Anoleis--a "pure" paragon doesn't even accept Lorik's sidequest.

Fist: This cameo is hard to get because you have to be a paragon AND Wrex can't be in your party.  And, as hard as it is to get, it's one somewhat goofy conversation.  I've actually never even had him in my game because of Wrex, and after watching it on Youtube, I can't say I'm missing out.

Helena Blake: Again, a "pure" paragon doesn't even accept her sidequest, and a renegade can still get her by intimidating her into giving up her life of crime.  It's really easy to not hit the "imma shoot you" button.  Also, by killing Helena, you get the immediate reward of gaining experience in battle.

Shiala: This is the only one where you legitimately miss out for playing renegade, I think.  Then again, killing her seems REALLY forced, as if the game is like, "Are you SURE you want to just gun this chick down?  Are you SURE?  Seriously, we are giving you a lot of time to reconsider this."  Besides, you still get the colonist.

The Council: Oh, come on, like you miss those dicks?  Yeah, I can understand being a little let down by not getting to see the new Council, but less Ah yes, "Reapers" means more dialogue with Anderson, and a nice dismissal of Legion.

Rodam Expeditions Guy: Sucks that you can't get the store discount, but I think having a turian be a colossal ass to you is a good indicator of the galaxy you're creating--more power for humans, but less holding hands.

Conrad: He thinks you're a renegade, anyway.

Wrex: Renegades can still save him if they have a high enough intimidate score or did his sidequest.  Meanwhile, if you didn't, you get Wreav, and with that an entirely different Tuchanka.


Fix'd.:ph34r:

#162
Slayer299

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Seboist wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

And what do you see as a fitting "punishment"? Choosing one doesn't mean you get a carbon copy of the other's abilities in the final battle.


My point was that there being no "punishment" in that DA:O situation is a GOOD thing. They both had their pros and cons without one better than the other.

Not like this ME garbage where the Paragon choice gets to save the council with minimal losses and the Renegade one doesn't get to see the human dominated council.


Oh, my bad, totally misunderstood you and I agree.

#163
knightnblu

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I approach morality from a virtue ethics point of view. Aristotle defined that approach in his Nicomachean Ethics, and I believe that approach to be superior to the problem/solution form of ethics. This is how Jack Bauer approached the world in the series 24.

Like Bauer, we have to face some hard choices and we also have to consider the greater good. For example, was it correct to kill 304,000 people in order to stop the Reaper invasion to buy more time? I believe that it was for these reasons:

First, once the invasion fleet arrived they would kill them anyway. Second, control of that specific gate would allow the invaders to travel to any other gate in the Galaxy and the Citadel would likely be their next stop (listen to Vigil's dialog in ME for the reasons why). Third, once the Reapers controlled the Citadel they would have everything they need in order to exterminate all sentient life in the galaxy. Fourth, the Reapers would continue to use the maser gate in order to accomplish their genocide with great tactical and strategic value. For those reasons, I destroyed the gate ending the lives of hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children.

I ordered Alenko to his death for much the same reasons. I had to save as many as I could while destroying the ground offensive capabilities of my adversary (the Krogan army). If I could have been able to retrieve Alenko while insuring the detonation of the nuke, I would have, but that wasn't in the cards.

Generally, I play as a paragon because I believe that one should abide by a strict code of morality. However, when the situation calls for it and the stakes are so very high, I am not above using renegade choices in order to pursue my agenda. That brings me to my pet peeve with the ethical system used in ME.

Just because I play Paragon most of the time, there are times that I need the renegade option in order to accomplish my mission with alacrity, efficacy, or both. For example, on Thane's loyalty mission I could have used the renegade option to extract the information with little fuss, but that option was denied because my Paragon score was too high.

If BioWare wanted to fix the ethics system of the game they would allow the player both choices all of the time in dialog or follow the paragon option with a renegade option when impulse decisions arise. Thus, the reflection of the player's morality would be more true to their play style with accumulated points opening new branches in the storyline or used as event triggers.

At least that's my take on it.

#164
DarthSliver

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

What is the big issue with a generic colonist? The encounter is pretty much the same either way.

Yeah, Shiala is generic as hell, anyway.

Most of these are minor cameos. Why are they issues at all?

Because some people are too damn picky.


It only gets better when ME3 comes out lol

#165
Dean_the_Young

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[quote]Mesina2 wrote...

[quote]Seboist wrote...

There was plenty of logical replacement cameos they could have added without too much effort.

Shiala dead? Lizbeth Baynham or her mother (instead of the generic colonist we get) they were not effected by spore[/quote]And that prevents them from showing up... how? Does Illium have some 'you must be this unhealthy to visit our planet' subclause?

Being personally effected by the sport isn't a requirement to show up: wanting to help the colonists who are is plenty of a basis for traveling to lobby on their behalf.

[quote]
Rachni Queen dead? Noveria Researcher (that one Volus comes to mind) you do know he went nuts because his friend was killed? Also Noveria went to cover up Rachni existance there[/quote]Factually incorrect: the counterpart of the 'Rachni Ships spotted' news segment is one in which the resurrection, and subsequent destruction, of the Rachni is on the galactic news channels.

The Volus doesn't have to be the person to come back... even though him being crazy  isn't actually a reason to disqualify him either. Crazy people thrive in the Mass Effect universe in surprising ways.

[quote]
Rana Thanoptis dead? One of Kirahee's men spying on Okeer. ???[/quote]This one I do agree on: we could just as well have some Okeer assistant.
[quote]
Giana dead? Matsuo why? It makes no sense[/quote]Defending corporate interests doesn't make sense if Giana is dead? 

It could be Giana, it could be Matsuo, or it could even be Lorik. All have the employment, and the basis via employment, to have some interest in stopping smuggled schematics.
[quote]
Fist dead? A brief mention from Bailey that his death reduced crime or something he's just a petty criminal and we have Blue Sun and Ellias Khelam. Also he goes to Omega, pointless[/quote]Fist was more than a mere petty criminal: he was a Shadow Broker lieutenant.

[quote]
You just listed pointless camoes that make no sense to show up.
[/quote]To be fair, you also listed some objections that made no sense either.

#166
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

But Lizbeth is alive for everyone--why not just use her in the first place?


Obvious answer: Shiala, being an asari and eager to repent for her sins, is logically the first to volunteer or be volunteered for this position if she was not killed by Shepard. Otherwise Lizbeth volunteers because she too wants to repent.

I don't know what I'd do in place of the rachni, honestly. Maybe additional dialogue from Anderson, or the Council, or maybe a meeting with a Binary-Helix rep who tanks Shepard for covering up their dirty little secret. This could be an excellent point of contention for Shepard when he's offended by BH percieving his act as one of charity on their behalf. This would be a neat little scene I think.

I'm not sure what I'd do about Rana Thanoptis either. That might be one that I just leave how it is. Though in counter it I might alter a different ME1 decision so that you get an encounter if you went the Renegade route but none if you went the Paragon route. Maybe, I'd set it so that Conrad Verner only appears if you used the intimidate option on him. Otherwise your advise caused him to grow up and settle down and you'll never hear from him again because he's not a moron running around the galaxy trying to play a hero. Maybe you get an email and that's it.

Matsuo could be on Ilium or another world for any number of reasons. Perhaps for the same reason Gainna was or perhaps for entirely different reasons. If she shows up then maybe it is because she lot her job on Noveria in the wake of all those deaths and the large breech of security.

Fist I'd probably just leave out of the game entirely and assume that the Shadow Broker got him anyway. Though I suppose that is a lazy way to approach the problem. Maybe I'd add some kind of downside to his turning up in ME2. Maybe he somehow interferes with a transaction Sheaprd is having on Omega that delays Shepard acquiring an upgrade or costs him some money? Nothing huge, just something minor. After all, I don't actually want to punish the paragons. I think everyone should benefit from the import feature.

Admiral Cheese wrote...

See, here's the thing--a lot of these "replacements" would feel incredibly forced. 


No more than the ones we already got. You're just lazy.

#167
CroGamer002

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

And that prevents them from showing up... how? Does Illium have some 'you must be this unhealthy to visit our planet' subclause?

Being personally effected by the sport isn't a requirement to show up: wanting to help the colonists who are is plenty of a basis for traveling to lobby on their behalf.


But reason why random colonist/Shiala was there is because of the spores.

Also why Paragon Shepard wouldn't get one of them? They are alive in every playthrough.

Factually incorrect: the counterpart of the 'Rachni Ships spotted' news segment is one in which the resurrection, and subsequent destruction, of the Rachni is on the galactic news channels.

The Volus doesn't have to be the person to come back... even though him being crazy  isn't actually a reason to disqualify him either. Crazy people thrive in the Mass Effect universe in surprising ways.


Well they FAILED to cover it up.

Also we get email from that Volus ONLY if you talked to him in ME1.

This one I do agree on: we could just as well have some Okeer assistant.


Why?

Defending corporate interests doesn't make sense if Giana is dead?

It could be Giana, it could be Matsuo, or it could even be Lorik. All have the employment, and the basis via employment, to have some interest in stopping smuggled schematics.


Matsue is charge of the security, NOT detective.
Same for Lorik, from who we get email even when Gianna is alive.

Fist was more than a mere petty criminal: he was a Shadow Broker lieutenant.


And he betrayed SB. Just a petty criminal with painted target on his head.

To be fair, you also listed some objections that made no sense either.


I disagree?

#168
Ashira Shepard

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Mesina2 wrote...

Reapers make necromorph Pregnant out of Rachni.


My god...*shudder* why would you... I mean...just...*stabs out own eyes*

#169
CroGamer002

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AshiraShepard wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Reapers make necromorph Pregnant out of Rachni.


My god...*shudder* why would you... I mean...just...*stabs out own eyes*


That's like 25th time you done that?

#170
Dean_the_Young

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Mesina2 wrote...

But the reason why random colonist/Shiala was there is because of the spores.

The random colonist/Shiala weren't just there for themselves personally, but on behalf of all the colonists who were infected. You don't need to suffer the same malady as someone to stand up for them elsewhere.

Also why Paragon Shepard wouldn't get one of them? They are alive in every playthrough.

There's no reason Paragon Shepard couldn't get them: Shiala isn't necessary for a cameo. Shiala could be a simple email, or Shiala could be additional flavor in case you did save her. Get Elizabeth if you don't save Shiala, see Shiala if you did save her (with the rational/wave being the same reason why Shiala is there instead of a random colonist).


Factually incorrect: the counterpart of the 'Rachni Ships spotted' news segment is one in which the resurrection, and subsequent destruction, of the Rachni is on the galactic news channels.

The Volus doesn't have to be the person to come back... even though him being crazy  isn't actually a reason to disqualify him either. Crazy people thrive in the Mass Effect universe in surprising ways.


Well they FAILED to cover it up.

Also we get email from that Volus ONLY if you talked to him in ME1.

Failed coverup or not is irrelevant. There is no mystery about whether there were Rachni on Noveria. That's more than enough basis for someone else, Noveria corporate suit or private citizen, to stand around for a 'thank Shepard for killing them' dialogue.

And again, arguing against the Volus is tilting at windmills: the Volus doesn't need to the returning character. There doesn't need to be a returning character: the Rachni Ambassador wasn't a returning character either.

Why?

To give the same insight into Okeer and the Grunt-creation process that Rana did. That's relevant semi-interesting info that doesn't simply not-exist if Rana bites the dust.

Frankly, it wouldn't even be unreasonable just to have a datapad with the same information lying around in the chamber. Save Rana and she'll tell it to you: hack the data pad and you can read it yourself. No absence of data.

Matsue is charge of the security, NOT detective.
Same for Lorik, from who we get email even when Gianna is alive.

The two are quite often closely linked. Moreover, you're needlessly fixating on what, Gianna's approach was. If it was, say, Lorik, then Lorik's appearance could be him sitting at the table trying to get through the paperwork/contact sources to resolve the situation, and then sees Shepard and takes the opportunity to ask Shepard to help. The quest giver doesn't actually need to be the dective in order to give the quest: heck, the quest giver doesn't even need to be in the same spot. Lorik could be in the other market section. Or at the bar, like old times. Or sitting outside Liara's office, hoping Liara could help.



And he betrayed SB. Just a petty criminal with painted target on his head.

Which doesn't change that Fist's death can be used as a catalyst for some other remark by Bailey or some other source. Such as, for example, that if you kill Fist, C-SEC was able to find some stuff later (data on other criminals, Shadow Broker files) that Fist otherwise could have taken with him/deleted as he was fleeing. Or it could be as simple as the corrupt politician/gang leader/Mouse from Thane's Loyalty Mission making some mention about how Fist's death opened up a power vacuume in which what's-his-name was able to step in.

It's not at all hard to write up some basis for an alternative mention of Fist if you killed him.

I disagree?

And?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 mai 2011 - 08:09 .


#171
Konfined

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Which doesn't change that Fist's death can be used as a catalyst for
some other remark by Bailey or some other source. Such as, for example,
that if you kill Fist, C-SEC was able to find some stuff later (data on
other criminals, Shadow Broker files) that Fist otherwise could have
taken with him/deleted as he was fleeing. Or it could be as simple as
the corrupt politician/gang leader/Mouse from Thane's Loyalty Mission
making some mention about how Fist's death opened up a power vacuume in
which what's-his-name was able to step in.

It's not at all hard to write up some basis for an alternative mention of Fist if you killed him.

Emily Wong's sidequest for Fist's OSD.  That would have been an excellent catalyst in this regard. 

#172
Mr. Gogeta34

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I think it's the presentation of the consequences that are skewed more toward the Paragon side. The Paragon side focuses on the benefits and all of the reactions are positive.

The positive aspects and reactions to Renegade decisions are expressed very subtly (if at all). That's what's likely causing the greatest backlash.

#173
Manic Sheep

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When I ask for negative consequences for paragon decisions (I may have said punished at some point but that’s me using the term wrong. I meant negative consequences not loss of content or trying to discourage players) is not because I feel the game is unfair to renegades because it's not. It's because I think it would make paragon more interesting. So far for the most part when paying a paragon (or mostly paragon) I kind of feel like I can have my cake and eat it too. I want the moral choice to be at a cost otherwise it lacks meaning. So far I kinda do that thru self nerfing when playing as a paragon. (Not using charm).

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 12 mai 2011 - 09:09 .


#174
Dean_the_Young

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For the most part, I greatly enjoyed the 'galactic' response to the Human Council in ME2: confrontational, hostile, and largely utterly ungrateful aliens were perfectly reasonable. I liked it because it didn't cater, even if the Human attitudes were largely indistinguishable from between the Paragon and Renegade outcomes.

What I wish the Paragon Council decision could have done, however, was a different backlash against Shepard in particular by Human characters. Alien adoration was well received, but the near absolute lack of criticism (except from Al-Jilani, who's hostile regardless) rather undermined it. In a galaxy in which Humanity is still being left dry by the Council despite the promises/expectations of membership, and in a context in which the Alliance's very means to deal with the Collectors were lost by Commander Shepard, the lack of any public/open criticism against Shepard by humans was more than a little strange.

I think shaping and accenting human views for both scenarios would have been a reasonable improvement.

In a Human Council setting, Shepard and Humanity should still be largely be detested by the politically-minded Aliens, but there should be noticably greater support for Shepard within the Alliance and most of Humanity. While the Council races recoil to Shepard, Humanity as a whole more or less rallies behind him in a 'Shepard can do no wrong' attitude, something that might be reflected in news broadcasts, or the aftermath of Arrival/Shepard's trial (in which the Alliance public is inclined to pardon/forgive Shepard). In short, while the aliens who care may despise Shepard, most Humans are notably more favorable, both in the Alliance military and outside. Tone shift, with a human-narrative that the rest of the Council races just doesn't appreciate what/how Humanity saved them from themselves.


In the Paragon Council, Shepard and reputation with the Council and galaxy has never been higher... but with a notable under-appreciation by the Alliance. Council status hasn't been all it promised to be, and in light of the lore-stated 'devastating' loss of strength thanks to Shepard's decision, Shepard becomes a lightning rod for criticism when the Alliance lacks the strength to do something and the Council doesn't want to help. So while Shepard may go 'I got us a Council seat, show some respect', anti-Shepard civilian/military officer may go 'And what did getting a seat do for us, huh? Now look how we can't protect our own.' This wouldn't necessarily be even a majority view, but a significant undercurrent that would only be exasperated by Arrival, in which the anti-Shepard movement pretty much be blaming him solely for the looming war with the Batarians, and be happy to sacrifice 'the person who's weakened the Alliance.' In terms of tone shift, still happy Aliens, but a notably under-grateful Human element.

#175
AdmiralCheez

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Cool idea, Dean. Wish they'd done that.