570 réponses à ce sujet

[100k]

GodWood wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...
That's very telling, even Miranda tells you it was a bad idea.

Come on now.

And Mordin + Legion (arguably both smarter than Miranda) opt to keep it.

Teams reactions:

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.

Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.

Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.

Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.

Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?

Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.

Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.

Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.

Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.

Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it

Bolded = Supports keeping it

I've never seen half of these. Must be a game glitch. Jack, Garrus, Tali, Samara, Thane, Mordin, Kasumi, and Jacob are all silent during this exchange. Must be a glitch? I thought only Miranda, Zaeed, and Legion had dialogue. 

[Apollo Starflare]

jakal66 wrote...


Probably because they thinl that ceberus isn't a trustworthy faction and it will do something bad eventually with it even after destroying the reaper...come on we have seen what cerberus could do in ME1 and to a point in ME2...I duon't suddenly see them as the saviours of the galaxy...

Yeah I get that, but read the rest of my post. What is Cerberus going to do? The horrifying thing about the base is the way it turns beings into the life force of a new Reaper. People paint Cerberus as boogey men who would do anything bad just for kicks, but they at the very least have Earth's best interests in mind and wouldn't go about stopping the Collectors building a Reaper just to build their own.

The reason to keep the base is all about the info and tech it has in it, not what it does. They want to use Reaper tech to make better weapons and such, not unlike how we aquire some of the advanced tech for the SR2 and such. I doubt many people, even staunch pro-Cerberus supporters, really see them as saviours of the Galaxy. Rather they have come to accept them as doing 'what must be done' when others would look the other way. At least when it benefits Earth (and needless to say, we all know by now that stopping the Reapers will benefit Earth).

Yakko77 wrote...


Name one Cerberus experiement that
didn't cross reasonable moral and ethical boundries and/or didn't result
in countless deaths.  ME1 and 2 is full of Cerberus experiments gone
bad or atrocities that require Shepard to fix or make right.  Even
bringing Shepard back to life went bad as the entire staff other than
Miranda and Jacob  died.

But THIS  time will be different...... Riiiight.

The definition of insanity is making the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result. 

The only way I could see saving the Collector base as justifiable is IF you didn't hand it over to Cerberus.

I don't need to, it is logical that as a resourceful and very well off group they have found success with numerous operations. It is also a likelihood that some of them were quite mundane and didn't cross any particularly large boundries, even if they were purely about making money or R+D. None of that matters, because the whole point about making the decision to keep the base is you know that some dodgy stuff could go on, but that you are gambling that it'll be worth it in the long run and that the base represents something valuable enough to take on Cerberus at a later date should it be required.

What are they going to do? Turn themselves into a Reaper? My Shepard decided that in the short term it could lead to technological advances that have nothing to do with liquifying various beings, and much more to do about saving lives. Some of the quotes from the squadmates should not be ignored because they make very valid arguments, certainly no less valid than those against it.

I think the main point is we don't think 'this time will be different' but rather that the ends will justify the means. That it represented an opportunity too valuable to pass up. However bad the ramifications to our choice may be in one way, all we want to see is it benefit us to some degree in another.

[Brownfinger]

I'm still processing it, but everything I've read there sounds spectacular.

mrsph wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Then its stupid  

You handed a base full of dangerous technology to a freakin' terrorist organization. An organization that has proven time and time again to be unable to safely experiment on anything.

The degree of surprise at this "revelation" is the funniest bit. What's a proper response to a baffling lack of foresight of this magnitude to people who weren't struck by the overwhelmingly obvious? I want to carve the word "DERP" into the moon with a laser in 800 mile letters.
For what he calls a "stupid Star Trek wanna-be", he certainly does seem quite emotionally invested.

[Seboist]

100k wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...
That's very telling, even Miranda tells you it was a bad idea.

Come on now.

And Mordin + Legion (arguably both smarter than Miranda) opt to keep it.

Teams reactions:

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.

Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.

Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.

Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.

Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?

Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.

Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.

Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.

Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.

Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it

Bolded = Supports keeping it

I've never seen half of these. Must be a game glitch. Jack, Garrus, Tali, Samara, Thane, Mordin, Kasumi, and Jacob are all silent during this exchange. Must be a glitch? I thought only Miranda, Zaeed, and Legion had dialogue. 

I can only remember Tali ever saying anything during that exchange. It must be glitched.

[Shifty Assassin]

Wait. So is jack a squad mate in me3 or is she just back?

[Dave of Canada]

Yakko77 wrote...

I'm not sure if anyone has called you stupid.

In the past few pages: Stupid, naive and something else that was edited out but was offensive.

[Yakko77]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus lead Shepard to victory against the Collectors. They have every right to keep it.

Cerberus just pointed Shepard in the right directon.  Shepard was the one leading the charge, holding the line and taking enemy fire.  He/she was always aware of and persuing the Reaper threat since day one at Eden Prime.

And no, Cerberus does NOT  have the "Right" to abuse and misuse the Collector base technology.... not if my Sheps have anything to say about it ..(which all but 1 out of 6 did).. by blowing it up. 

No matter how much you and others want to pretend otherwise, there is no precedent for Cerberus to act in a moral and ethical way. Sure, they're trying to stop the Reapers but only because they can't secure human dominance with the Reapers killing everyone.  That's not to say there aren't good and well meaning people in Cerberus (Ken and Gabby for example) but their overall record and the man leading it have time and again proven they're incapable or unwilling to act ethically and morally.  You may make an argument that that's what it'll take to beat the Reapers in the end and that those kind of choices are what it'll take to win but please stop pretending it's something that it's not.

Too often the justifications for saving the Collector base are akin to an arsonist saying he lit the orphanage on fire to keep the children warm.

[Seboist]

Yakko77 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus lead Shepard to victory against the Collectors. They have every right to keep it.

Cerberus just pointed Shepard in the right directon.  Shepard was the one leading the charge, holding the line and taking enemy fire.  He/she was always aware of and persuing the Reaper threat since day one at Eden Prime.

And no, Cerberus does NOT  have the "Right" to abuse and misuse the Collector base technology.... not if my Sheps have anything to say about it ..(which all but 1 out of 6 did).. by blowing it up. 

No matter how much you and others want to pretend otherwise, there is no precedent for Cerberus to act in a moral and ethical way. Sure, they're trying to stop the Reapers but only because they can't secure human dominance with the Reapers killing everyone.  That's not to say there aren't good and well meaning people in Cerberus (Ken and Gabby for example) but their overall record and the man leading it have time and again proven they're incapable or unwilling to act ethically and morally.  You may make an argument that that's what it'll take to beat the Reapers in the end and that those kind of choices are what it'll take to win but please stop pretending it's something that it's not.

Too often the justifications for saving the Collector base are akin to an arsonist saying he lit the orphanage on fire to keep the children warm.

Cerberus revived Shepard and provided all the materials,personnel,intel and strategic planning for the victory against the Collectors.

TIM has humanity's long term interests and security at heart. He's a good man.

[Leonia]

Oh it's the Cerberus debate again.. *sits on the fence*

But really, wanted to thank the OP for posting this information. Was a great thread to wake up to. It's nice to know the devs are trying to focus on a smaller team with more character development this time around. A more mobile Shepard sounds awesome and did I read something about piloting a mech? Heck yeah! Can't wait. The levels and environments sound like they'll be amazing, so looking forward to exploring around.

[Fiery Phoenix]

100k wrote...

(...)

I've never seen half of these. Must be a game glitch. Jack, Garrus, Tali, Samara, Thane, Mordin, Kasumi, and Jacob are all silent during this exchange. Must be a glitch? I thought only Miranda, Zaeed, and Legion had dialogue. 

It's not glitched; they're all in the game and I've heard them personally. It's entirely dependent on what lines you choose to respond to TIM at the time. If you respond to TIM with the option that says "Are you sure about this?" and then choose "Let's take it and use," whoever is standing with you will comment against keeping the base, at which point you have a final option to either go ahead and keep the base or change your mind and destroy it. The opposite happens if you choose to destroy the base but are reluctant about it. Basically you have to choose your options selectively to get the squad to comment.

I've heard the Thane line in my game, for example. At the time I wasn't sure if I wanted to destroy the base, so I contemplated keeping it and chose my dialogue options accordingly during the conversation with TIM. Thane made his comment just I was choosing to keep it, but then I chose to destroy it afterward.

[Apollo Starflare]

Yakko77 wrote...

No matter how much you and others want to pretend otherwise, there is no precedent for Cerberus to act in a moral and ethical way. Sure, they're trying to stop the Reapers but only because they can't secure human dominance with the Reapers killing everyone.  That's not to say there aren't good and well meaning people in Cerberus (Ken and Gabby for example) but their overall record and the man leading it have time and again proven they're incapable or unwilling to act ethically and morally.  You may make an argument that that's what it'll take to beat the Reapers in the end and that those kind of choices are what it'll take to win but please stop pretending it's something that it's not.

Too often the justifications for saving the Collector base are akin to an arsonist saying he lit the orphanage on fire to keep the children warm.

Did you read any of my posts? I haven't seen anyone denying Cerberus' past actions, but merely pointing out some of the things you have said right there. 1) Cerberus puts the wellfare and dominance of Humanity over most other concerns, and right now the Reaper threat is their only priority (we have no idea what has happened in the interim between games). 2) There are people working for Cerberus who aren't bad people! Such as many of the crew of the SR2. 3) We don't expect Cerberus to suddenly act in a moral and ethical way, that's why it's a difficult decision. Do you save the technology and hope the ends justify the means or do you take no chances?

They don't need to act within our expected moral guidelines, we just want them to get results. Sadly it seems something has gone wrong along the way, but that is seemingly unconnected to the base anyway as it affects all ME3 playthroughs.

4) We are making precisely the argument that saving the base is a case of pragmatism. That despite Cerberus' sketchy history they are curently batting for the good guys because any other option leads to destruction. That the ends will hopefully justify the means and that to not gamble on something with such potentially beneficial repurcussions would be shortsighted. I would be surprised if any of the posters who advocate saving the base didn't have doubts that it would also have a negative effect on ME3 in some fashion, but (speaking for myself) I felt that was a bridge that my Shepard could cross when she came to it. Dealing with Cerberus after the Reaper's were defeated would be nothing in comparison to finding out we lost out on some vital, invasion stopping, tech.

That enough reasoning for you? No burning orphans required!

[Geth_Prime]

Nice. Thanks for posting all that, Vertigo. I'm looking forward to driving a fifty foot mech in ME3.

[CroGamer002]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

" 'Twelve was a big number in Mass Effect 2 - almost too big", Hudson concedes.  "We're focused on a smaller squad with deeper relationships and more interesting interplay in Mass Effect 3' he explains.  "We're not going to have twelve again but we are going to do more with the characters on  your squad including Liara, and Kaidan or Ashley. And we're bringing everyone back - every main character is in Mass Effect 3 somewhere' "

So let's see.

3 squadmate we will have( Liara, VS and James), and 2 that ma die( Garrus and Tali).

I'm sure will have 2-3 more new squadmates and since there's gonna be less then 12 of them then only 4-3 old ones will join up Shepard again and that's only if there's gonna be 11 of them.

I am sad since Legion will probably won't be permanent squadmate since he's not a LI.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 mai 2011 - 06:39 .

[Dave of Canada]

Yakko77 wrote...

Too often the justifications for saving the Collector base are akin to an arsonist saying he lit the orphanage on fire to keep the children warm.

Here's a simple one.

You're fighting the Reapers! Oh noes!

What happens if the combined fleets of the universe isn't enough to beat them? What if you needed research on them? Research that just happens to exist in the factory that you blew up prior to the invasion? Well, that's just great. You just doomed the galaxy because you didn't trust Cerberus. All sentient life simply... gone! Nice job breaking it, hero.

... but what if, you kept it? What if that base provides the necessary research to win? You might've empowered Cerberus, they might hire arsonists to burn down orphanages or whatever else you think they'll do. The thing is, they're still alive to do it.

If the base doesn't provide the necessary research to win, who cares? You're dead! Everybody else is dead! Nobody's going to yell at you because you gave the now-dead Cerberus a base that serves them no purpose because they died.

And don't you dare bring up metagaming. Shepard doesn't have the knowledge brought up in the magazines, he's not a subscriber or he'd get emails from them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 11 mai 2011 - 06:42 .

[JetsoverEverything]

Yakko77 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus lead Shepard to victory against the Collectors. They have every right to keep it.

Cerberus just pointed Shepard in the right directon.  Shepard was the one leading the charge, holding the line and taking enemy fire.  He/she was always aware of and persuing the Reaper threat since day one at Eden Prime.

And no, Cerberus does NOT  have the "Right" to abuse and misuse the Collector base technology.... not if my Sheps have anything to say about it ..(which all but 1 out of 6 did).. by blowing it up. 

No matter how much you and others want to pretend otherwise, there is no precedent for Cerberus to act in a moral and ethical way. Sure, they're trying to stop the Reapers but only because they can't secure human dominance with the Reapers killing everyone.  That's not to say there aren't good and well meaning people in Cerberus (Ken and Gabby for example) but their overall record and the man leading it have time and again proven they're incapable or unwilling to act ethically and morally.  You may make an argument that that's what it'll take to beat the Reapers in the end and that those kind of choices are what it'll take to win but please stop pretending it's something that it's not.

Too often the justifications for saving the Collector base are akin to an arsonist saying he lit the orphanage on fire to keep the children warm.

so because i decided that my shepard should be part of cerberus im wrong??
wheres the player choice in that?




PS
im not complaining im just asking/saying

[Remus Artega]

So the shrinking of Reapers continues? first from 2km to 600 m and now 182 m...in final game they would be like 10 ft or what?

Modifié par Remus Artega, 11 mai 2011 - 06:52 .

[100k]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

" 'Twelve was a big number in Mass Effect 2 - almost too big", Hudson concedes.  "We're focused on a smaller squad with deeper relationships and more interesting interplay in Mass Effect 3' he explains.  "We're not going to have twelve again but we are going to do more with the characters on  your squad including Liara, and Kaidan or Ashley. And we're bringing everyone back - every main character is in Mass Effect 3 somewhere' "

So let's see.

3 squadmate we will have( Liara, VS and James), and 2 that ma die( Garrus and Tali).

I'm sure will have 2-3 more new squadmates and since there's gonna be less then 12 of them then only 4-3 old ones will join up Shepard again and that's only if there's gonna be 11 of them.

I am sad since Legion will probably won't be permanent squadmate since he's not a LI.

I'm thinking 7 to 9 squad mates. 7 being the default "first time to ME universe" play, 9 including some of the characters that survived ME2.

*X = new character

1. Liara
2. Vega
3. VS
4. X/Garrus
5 X/Tali
6. X/Jack
7. X/Whoever fills this role--possibly Grunt
8. Legion (assuming they survived)
9. Miranda/Jacob -- depending on gender of Shepard (assuming she survived)

[100k]

Remus Artega wrote...

So the shrinking of Reapers continues? first from 2km to 600 m and now 182 m...in final game they would be like 10 ft or what?

I don't understand the question. The Reapers come in different sizes, and this has been confirmed. While it would be pretty...interesting to fight a 2K behemoth, that would take hours, assuming you could even put a dent of a dent of a chip of a hole in it.

Facing a Reaper that is 600 ft makes sense. Hell, it explains how Harbinger's visions at the end of Arrival's countdown might actually be accurate (featuring flash images of small Reapers invading Illium and the Citadel).

[GodWood]

I'm thinking 7 to 9 squad mates. 7 being the default "first time to ME universe" play, 9 including some of the characters that survived ME2.

*X = new character

1. Liara
2. Vega
3. VS
4. X/Garrus
5 X/Tali
6. X/Jack
7. X/Whoever fills this role--possibly Grunt
8. Legion (assuming they survived)
9. Miranda/Jacob -- depending on gender of Shepard (assuming she survived)

I'm assuming Vega = James?

And if I was to edit your lineup I'd have Legion as a temp, throw Thane in there somewhere (so all LIs would be in) and have the Miranda/Jacob thing be a choice and not based on gender.

[Remus Artega]

100k wrote...

Remus Artega wrote...

So the shrinking of Reapers continues? first from 2km to 600 m and now 182 m...in final game they would be like 10 ft or what?

I don't understand the question. The Reapers come in different sizes, and this has been confirmed. While it would be pretty...interesting to fight a 2K behemoth, that would take hours, assuming you could even put a dent of a dent of a chip of a hole in it.

Facing a Reaper that is 600 ft makes sense. Hell, it explains how Harbinger's visions at the end of Arrival's countdown might actually be accurate (featuring flash images of small Reapers invading Illium and the Citadel).

In GI article Hudson said that the size varies from 600 - 2000 meters...and now we have like 180...Seems to be more like lazyness on the devs side to think of original gameplay device to actually make fight of that scale possible...now we have big mech to fight the monsters...more like Lost Planet 1 ...but whatever...

[Confused-Shepard]

HOORAY FOR GIANT ROBOTS! I was hoping it would be Quarian (Anti-Geth weapon)
The gameplay sounds more & more like Gears of War; fast, frentic and stylish
That is a wonderful thing. Of course we will have weapon modding & RPG elements backing it up

ATLAS-BOT VS REAPER = Best Bossfight in VIDEO GAME HISTORY

[100k]

GodWood wrote...

I'm thinking 7 to 9 squad mates. 7 being the default "first time to ME universe" play, 9 including some of the characters that survived ME2.

*X = new character

1. Liara
2. Vega
3. VS
4. X/Garrus
5 X/Tali
6. X/Jack
7. X/Whoever fills this role--possibly Grunt
8. Legion (assuming they survived)
9. Miranda/Jacob -- depending on gender of Shepard (assuming she survived)

I'm assuming Vega = James?

And if I was to edit your lineup I'd have Legion as a temp, throw Thane in there somewhere (so all LIs would be in) and have the Miranda/Jacob thing be a choice and not based on gender.

Appropriate changes. Thane would be as practical as Legion.

[Niddy']

JACK IS BACK WOOO

[100k]

Remus Artega wrote...

100k wrote...

Remus Artega wrote...

So the shrinking of Reapers continues? first from 2km to 600 m and now 182 m...in final game they would be like 10 ft or what?

I don't understand the question. The Reapers come in different sizes, and this has been confirmed. While it would be pretty...interesting to fight a 2K behemoth, that would take hours, assuming you could even put a dent of a dent of a chip of a hole in it.

Facing a Reaper that is 600 ft makes sense. Hell, it explains how Harbinger's visions at the end of Arrival's countdown might actually be accurate (featuring flash images of small Reapers invading Illium and the Citadel).

In GI article Hudson said that the size varies from 600 - 2000 meters...and now we have like 180...Seems to be more like lazyness on the devs side to think of original gameplay device to actually make fight of that scale possible...now we have big mech to fight the monsters...more like Lost Planet 1 ...but whatever...

Maybe he just messed up. Fighting a 600m Reaper is still incredibly huge. It would just be another aim-for-the-weak-spot ordeal.

[Vena_86]

It's funny how admiting faults of the last game only happens when the marketing of the next game has begun.
This all sounds really impressive, but alot of the marketing talk for ME2 or DA2 or any other game was misleading, so I have to force my self to reasonable wait.