37 réponses à ce sujet

[ajm317]

This is a pretty big stretch in my opinion.

Why would the Arishok want the chantry destroyed? Is it even clear he understands the implications? COULD he understand the implications? At that point in the story it's not clear this would lead to a mage/templar war. How would he know Anders would do that? Does Anders even have the plan at this point? It seems unlikely given the distinct changes in his dialogue/party banter in Act III. How would the Arishok know that the gaatlock wouldn't end up in someone elses hands? Why was Anders bomb decidedly NOT gunpowder in its effect? Why does Anders describe the ingredients using Tevinter terminology instead of Qunari terminology? Why would Anders trust/work with the Qunari when they're a dozen fold worse than even the templars? Why did it take Anders 3 years to enact his plan if he and the Arishok had agreed to it by the end of Act 2?

Seems pretty far fetched.

[Beerfish]

ajm317 wrote...

This is a pretty big stretch in my opinion.

Why would the Arishok want the chantry destroyed? Is it even clear he understands the implications? COULD he understand the implications? At that point in the story it's not clear this would lead to a mage/templar war. How would he know Anders would do that? Does Anders even have the plan at this point? It seems unlikely given the distinct changes in his dialogue/party banter in Act III. How would the Arishok know that the gaatlock wouldn't end up in someone elses hands? Why was Anders bomb decidedly NOT gunpowder in its effect? Why does Anders describe the ingredients using Tevinter terminology instead of Qunari terminology? Why would Anders trust/work with the Qunari when they're a dozen fold worse than even the templars? Why did it take Anders 3 years to enact his plan if he and the Arishok had agreed to it by the end of Act 2?

Seems pretty far fetched.

- As I said in my original post he indicates that if Hawke doesn't do soemthing about Petrice he will reduce her hiding place to rubble.  He also sends an assassin into the Chantry to kill Petrice. 
- He also has a bone to pick with the Petrice and by extension the chantry for the whole Qunari are heretics.
- He has shown that he is not above picking out causes in Kirkwall and supporting them on the sly if it will cause a problem for Kirkwall which he views as a cesspool.  (The poison gas, the murdering elves)
- He knows that the only thing keeping the mages and Templars in check is the Chantry, once it is gone civil war.
- He may know or hope that this scenario plays out as it eventually did.  The Chantry across the lands losing control and chaos.  Remember, the main reason the Qunari got beaten down in their previous invasion was that the used mages sparingly and the other side used mages alot.

All good reasons for the Qunari if not the Arishok to want the Chantry gone.

My suggestion is a stretch in that there is no evidence at all that Anders and the Qunari had any dealings at all and really none that they didn't.  Anders was planning this for a long long time and he had to get the means somewhere, somehow.  Unless his component gathering was a total bluff, those items were at least part of the big boom process.

(As I said it could have been the Arishok, it could be Qunari agents that are displeased that their Arishok was killed.)

Obviously, there is no proof in my original conspiracy theory but as Cassandra says  "Motive and opportunity!" 

[ajm317]

Beerfish wrote...

- As I said in my original post he indicates that if Hawke doesn't do soemthing about Petrice he will reduce her hiding place to rubble.  He also sends an assassin into the Chantry to kill Petrice.

But even if Petrice is dead by the end of Act II the explosion in Act III still happens.  The Arishok said if Petrice isn't dealt with he'll level the place, but why does he then level the place even if she is dealt with? 

- He also has a bone to pick with the Petrice and by extension the chantry for the whole Qunari are heretics.
- He has shown that he is not above picking out causes in Kirkwall and supporting them on the sly if it will cause a problem for Kirkwall which he views as a cesspool.  (The poison gas, the murdering elves)

He does those things to serve his own ends, which is to retrieve the tome.  He doesn't care about Kirkwall.  How does blowing up the chantry get him the tome?

- He knows that the only thing keeping the mages and Templars in check is the Chantry, once it is gone civil war.

This is not clear.  The Arishok demonstrates a clear lack of understanding on the finer points of Kirkwall society.  When you tell him Petrice is behind the events in Act I he says it means nothing to him because he can't keep track of all the groups and factions in the city.

- He may know or hope that this scenario plays out as it eventually did.  The Chantry across the lands losing control and chaos.  Remember, the main reason the Qunari got beaten down in their previous invasion was that the used mages sparingly and the other side used mages alot.

Ok but what if he gives Anders the gunpowder and he turns around and gives it to the Viscount, who then gives it to his allies, who spread it through Thedas?  The gaatlock is a vital advantage to the Qunari.  Why should he trust a  mage with it?

Modifié par ajm317, 11 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[blothulfur]

We are not responsible for the actions of the Saarebas abomination Anders and it was Elthina who told us of Petrices whereabouts in her scheme to incite the Andrastian of your cesspits to rise up against us and thereby strengthen the worship of your non existent slavemaster god.

We would not have perfectly useful buildings destroyed when they can be repuposed to serve a role in the Qun.

Ataash qunari.

[PsychoBlonde]

Personally, I think if they'd explicitly tied acts 2 and 3 together this way, it would have been superior (have Anders get his hands on the formula somehow, and improve it with lyrium a la Dworkin and magic a la himself). However, gunpowder is actually pretty simple to make and was known in most of the civilized world long before cannons and guns were invented. (Just as the ancient Greeks knew about steam power but it wasn't actually *used* for anything until the 18th century.) It's quite possible he found the recipe in the notes of some dude who used it for blowing up tree stumps to clear fields and nobody connected it with the Qunari weapons. Cannons and guns are *significantly* more difficult to make than black powder.

[Beerfish]

blothulfur wrote...

We are not responsible for the actions of the Saarebas abomination Anders and it was Elthina who told us of Petrices whereabouts in her scheme to incite the Andrastian of your cesspits to rise up against us and thereby strengthen the worship of your non existent slavemaster god.

We would not have perfectly useful buildings destroyed when they can be repuposed to serve a role in the Qun.

Ataash qunari.

Hey!  I killed all of you preachy tarts!  Proof positive that there is an Qun agent still in kirkwall, carefully planning.....moving his chess pieces around the board and once again hiding behind an ideology that cannot be trusted as it is kept vague enough so that the Qun are never wrong.

Now Shooo!  Back to Par vollen you go.  I hear you still are looking for a book.

[Beerfish]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Personally, I think if they'd explicitly tied acts 2 and 3 together this way, it would have been superior (have Anders get his hands on the formula somehow, and improve it with lyrium a la Dworkin and magic a la himself). However, gunpowder is actually pretty simple to make and was known in most of the civilized world long before cannons and guns were invented. (Just as the ancient Greeks knew about steam power but it wasn't actually *used* for anything until the 18th century.) It's quite possible he found the recipe in the notes of some dude who used it for blowing up tree stumps to clear fields and nobody connected it with the Qunari weapons. Cannons and guns are *significantly* more difficult to make than black powder.

I don't agree with that.  Javaris is pretty specific in his admiration for the new explosive powder that no one else knows about and the Arishok indicates that they guard it's origin very closely.  I don't think gun powder and it's uses are as out there for people to use as you indicate at this point in time.

[blothulfur]

Are you insinuating that we allow the Tal'Vashoth to be so that we might filter out those who are not content in the Qun and let them walk amidst you and see the weaknesses in your societies, you might say that but I couldn't possibly comment.

[Beerfish]

But even if Petrice is dead by the end of Act II the explosion in Act III still happens.  The Arishok said if Petrice isn't dealt with he'll level the place, but why does he then level the place even if she is dealt with? 

His words show that he is fully prepared to level a building, in this case the Chantry if he doesn't get his way.  Teh reasons for doing so crop up later but his words suggest he is fully willing to do so.

He does those things to serve his own ends, which is to retrieve the tome.  He doesn't care about Kirkwall.  How does blowing up the chantry get him the tome?

He goes far past just wanting the tomb and in your covnersations you can see that he hates Kirkwall and there comes a point where he can no longer stand it and has to teach the city a lesson, this has little to do with his inability to get the book.  Both Aveline and Meredith suggest that this is a long planned attack by the Arishok.  When you meet him before the final battle he doesn't say jack about the book until Isabela shows up with it.

This is not clear.  The Arishok demonstrates a clear lack of understanding on the finer points of Kirkwall society.  When you tell him Petrice is behind the events in Act I he says it means nothing to him because he can't keep track of all the groups and factions in the city.

He feels he knows as much as he needs to know, he may know nothing or he may know more than he is letting on.

Ok but what if he gives Anders the gunpowder and he turns around and gives it to the Viscount, who then gives it to his allies, who spread it through Thedas?  The gaatlock is a vital advantage to the Qunari.  Why should he trust a  mage with it?

He may not just give the gunpowder to Anders, he could very well have told him, you gather these things, add a little magic and you can make a big boom.  By the time comes for the final fight with the arishiok the arishiok is really pissed off at Kirkwall.  It would be a long shot if he just gave the powder to Anders outright but there are many ways he could have helped Anders and as Hawke says "An enemy of my enemy is a friend?"  And the Arishok does not discard this line (during the elf murder part).  Also it may not be the Arishok at all, it could be others from the Qunari after the insult of having the Arishok killed and most of the rest of them sent home with their tails between their legs.

[Beerfish]

blothulfur wrote...

Are you insinuating that we allow the Tal'Vashoth to be so that we might filter out those who are not content in the Qun and let them walk amidst you and see the weaknesses in your societies, you might say that but I couldn't possibly comment.

Tal Vashoth?  Perhaps, perhaps not but you do have a loan bounty hunter who now resides in the Hanged man.  A place where people get drunk and talk....a place where the champion and his companions hang out.  He is such an obvious 'plant'.  Oh and all those 'swords of the fallen' one of your kind is wanting me to return?  Threw em in the ocean.

[ajm317]

Beerfish wrote...
He goes far past just wanting the tomb and in your covnersations you can see that he hates Kirkwall and there comes a point where he can no longer stand it and has to teach the city a lesson, this has little to do with his inability to get the book.  Both Aveline and Meredith suggest that this is a long planned attack by the Arishok.  When you meet him before the final battle he doesn't say jack about the book until Isabela shows up with it.

I don't agree.  I think it's pretty clear he only cares about the tome.  It's true that he hates Kirkwall, but it's not his job to do anything about it.

When you talk to him earlier in the plot and he threatens to attack he says "the Qun demands I retrieve the tome, it would be much easier to do so by sifting through rubble" or something to that effect.  If the Qunari take over Kirkwall then they can go door to door, search people, turn over every rock etc. 

He does mention the book before Isabela shows up.  Right before she does in fact.  He says something along the lines of "I cannot return until I have the book.  How would you resolve this?"  Then Isabela steps in.

Finally, and most importantly, if you give him the tome and Isabela, he leaves. 

If the Arishok wanted to destroy the chantry out of spite he could have just done so.  He takes over the Viscounts keep with no real trouble, they're like a block apart.  Send a team in with some barrels and boom.

He may not just give the gunpowder to Anders, he could very well have told him, you gather these things, add a little magic and you can make a big boom.  By the time comes for the final fight with the arishiok the arishiok is really pissed off at Kirkwall.  It would be a long shot if he just gave the powder to Anders outright but there are many ways he could have helped Anders and as Hawke says "An enemy of my enemy is a friend?"  And the Arishok does not discard this line (during the elf murder part).  Also it may not be the Arishok at all, it could be others from the Qunari after the insult of having the Arishok killed and most of the rest of them sent home with their tails between their legs.

I don't think this adequately adresses the objection.  The Qunari are depicted as being very secretive of the gunpowder recipe.  They would have to be to keep the secret for over 200 years.  I am pretty sure they don't want any Andrastians anywhere near the idea of mixing saltpeter and sulphur.  If they just started giving out gunpowder to everyone who shows up and wants to blow up a building it wouldn't stay a secret for long, even if they didn't tell them what it was exactly.

Also, why would the Qunari know how to enhance it through magic?  Magical research is more or less banned in Par Vollen.  Saarebas are kept on leashes and prevented from even speaking.  Further, if they DID know how to make bombs of the type Anders creates, presumably they would do so.  There is no mention of such in the codex or lore.

Modifié par ajm317, 11 mai 2011 - 07:51 .

[IanPolaris]

Everyone,

You are making this too hard. Anders had access to the formula for Gatlock in DAA. Dwokin the dwarf discovered it independantly and Anders could have easily learned it from him.

-Polaris

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...

Everyone,

You are making this too hard. Anders had access to the formula for Gatlock in DAA. Dwokin the dwarf discovered it independantly and Anders could have easily learned it from him.

-Polaris

Quite possibly as well, good point.  I like my unsupported conspiracy theories though .