214 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

celuloid wrote...

M-Sinistrari wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Apparently in retrospect the whole point was to build up Cerberus as a villain in ME3 despite all the signs of TIM greatly admiring Shepard and hints at continued Cerberus cooperation post SM.

I've seen that dialog and it's nothing hinting towards an admiration or continued working together.  It's more of a headbutting over TIM's bs and Shep going freelancer.

Well, before suicide mission, TIM says: "I appreciate the risk you take. Regardless of your opinion of Cerberus, of me, you are a valuable asset, to all of humanity".

So the only explanation there is for TIM's sudden change of heart in ME3 is some master plan which involves implanting Shepard to defeat Reapers.

Also the beginning of the game shows TIM's admiration:

"You could have trained an entire army for what you spent to bring me back" - Shepard

"You're unique. not just an ability or what you experienced, but in what you represent. You stood for humanity at a key moment. You're more than just a soldier - you're a symbol and I don't know if the Reapers understand fear but you killed one of them. They have to respect that" - TIM

Then there's TIM mourning Shepard's death in the bad ending regardless of what happens to the CB.

[lolwut666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I don't see why is it so hard to believe that ressurecting Shepard was just a gamble.

A gamble for what?

To acquire Reaper technology.

[Someone With Mass]

lolwut666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I don't see why is it so hard to believe that ressurecting Shepard was just a gamble.

A gamble for what?

To acquire Reaper technology.

That's because some  people refuses to believe that Cerberus might betray Shepard, despite their past record of betrayal and very immoral actions against the betrayed.

[ExtremeOne]

Someone With Mass wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I don't see why is it so hard to believe that ressurecting Shepard was just a gamble.

A gamble for what?

To acquire Reaper technology.

That's because some  people refuses to believe that Cerberus might betray Shepard, despite their past record of betrayal and very immoral actions against the betrayed.

    



Yeah right just keep buying Bioware's bull sh*t . They can hide the reason all they want its complete and utter sh*t and ****** poor story telling 

[Zulu_DFA]

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

It would only make sense if they were working for the Reapers all along or if Zulu's theory is right: They have learned something dangerous about Shepard and need to take Shepard out of the equation if they want to stop the Reapers. But really, we have so little information to go on now regarding Cerberus' motives in ME3.

I also have other theories:

My "official" standing (in line with the "Cerberus isn't rogue" theory) one is that TIM simply honors the deniability thingy, knowing too well (and making sure) that his mooks won't seriously impede Shepard, but only provide him with more clout when it comes to securing aliens' assistance.

Alternatively, TIM may have learnt (bonus points if you gave him the Base) a way to easily defeat the Reapers, but wants to hold back until they screw up the Galaxy (and the aliens), then come out on top with his super-humans. Kinda like Mao Zedong used to say: "Let a nuclear war begin! It'll only destroy the capitalists and clear the way for the Chinese people to bring communism to the farhest sides of the world!" (or something to that effect).

With Deception's synopsis, I'd bet my money on the last one (if I had to). But really, with so many possibilities,  we shall have to wait and see.

You know, I can't believe I am actually saying this, but I agree with you. This is what I have thought all along after hearing they "teamed up" with the Reapers.

Yeah I know, it's hard to agree with a Zulu, but sometimes you just can't help it.

Also, [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]@ you blocking me.

[Someone With Mass]

ExtremeOne wrote...
Yeah right just keep buying Bioware's bull sh*t . They can hide the reason all they want its complete and utter sh*t and ****** poor story telling 

That's why I'm here. 

Also, call the whaaambulance. We have a serious case of butthurt here.

Seriously. Suck it up. I don't think anyone reacted that whiny when they were forced to work with Cerberus in ME2. 

Or when the Alliance gave them work in ME1, for that matter.

[Chewin]

@Someone With Mass Why do you even bother with him/her?

[Zulu_DFA]

leonia42 wrote...

he must prevent Shepard from using it first?

Actually if he wanted that, the surest way would have been to drop a nuke on Shepard's head instead of sending in mooks with stun batons...

But, to quote Chairman Mao again, "the nuclear bomb is a paper tiger". BioWare clearly adheres to this, and to throwing rocks.

[Someone With Mass]

Chewin3 wrote...

@Someone With Mass Why do you even bother with him/her?

I ask myself that question from time to time. 

[Ultai]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I also have other theories:

My "official" standing (in line with the "Cerberus isn't rogue" theory) one is that TIM simply honors the deniability thingy, knowing too well (and making sure) that his mooks won't seriously impede Shepard, but only provide him with more clout when it comes to securing aliens' assistance.

If so I salute those mooks, they would have to be dedicated to the cause when they know they're going to get shot up when they're just pretending, well serious pretending. ;p

[Zulu_DFA]

Ultai wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I also have other theories:

My "official" standing (in line with the "Cerberus isn't rogue" theory) one is that TIM simply honors the deniability thingy, knowing too well (and making sure) that his mooks won't seriously impede Shepard, but only provide him with more clout when it comes to securing aliens' assistance.

If so I salute those mooks, they would have to be dedicated to the cause when they know they're going to get shot up when they're just pretending, well serious pretending. ;p

They probably don't have much choice. They signed off when they signed up.

[M-Sinistrari]

celuloid wrote...

Well, before suicide mission, TIM says: "I appreciate the risk you take. Regardless of your opinion of Cerberus, of me, you are a valuable asset, to all of humanity".

So the only explanation there is for TIM's sudden change of heart in ME3 is some master plan which involves implanting Shepard to defeat Reapers.

In my experience, the last time people were referred to as valuable assets, we all ended up getting laid off just in time for Christmas.  So, with me there's pretty much no credence to presuming being called a valuable asset means something good.

And as usually gets mentioned about TIM's alleged mourning Shep.  Didn't look like that to me, looked more like 'We spent how much on him and this is what happens...would've been cheaper with other options'.

[celuloid]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

In my experience, the last time people were referred to as valuable assets, we all ended up getting laid off just in time for Christmas. So, with me there's pretty much no credence to presuming being called a valuable asset means something good.

And as usually gets mentioned about TIM's alleged mourning Shep. Didn't look like that to me, looked more like 'We spent how much on him and this is what happens...would've been cheaper with other options'.

OK, but there is only so much we can handwave away with saying "TIM is Snidely-Whiplash-evil".

For example, he says to Miranda: "Then make sure we don't lose him [Shepard]". There is no reason he would work against Reaper plans if he already works for them. Sorry, PC Gamer article is pure BS.

He likes to have revenge, but only as a side effect of his plans (source: Retribution). He won't hunt Shepard during Reaper invasion just to punish him, that undermines every bit of his personality we have seen so far.

ME2 presents him as a good reasonable guy who likes to have others do the dirty stuff. If ME2 writing had any point at all, TIM surely has some sinister plan to destroy Reapers that involves nasty things done to Shepard. So you Cerberus fans can finally taste how it feels when it's YOU being experimented at!

[James2912]

to the OP. SO that they could have a cheap twist and teach everyone a moral lesson. The more patriotic you are the more you want to side with the evil alien race that wants to kill your people. Does it make sense no. DO i hope they somehow make it have some sort of sense? Yes I want a good reason why cerberus betrays me, when I played as a complete cerberus stooge! I was TIMs puppy I worshiped him! TIM has kicked his puppy for no reason.

[Moiaussi]

celuloid wrote...

M-Sinistrari wrote...

In my experience, the last time people were referred to as valuable assets, we all ended up getting laid off just in time for Christmas. So, with me there's pretty much no credence to presuming being called a valuable asset means something good.

And as usually gets mentioned about TIM's alleged mourning Shep. Didn't look like that to me, looked more like 'We spent how much on him and this is what happens...would've been cheaper with other options'.

OK, but there is only so much we can handwave away with saying "TIM is Snidely-Whiplash-evil".

For example, he says to Miranda: "Then make sure we don't lose him [Shepard]". There is no reason he would work against Reaper plans if he already works for them. Sorry, PC Gamer article is pure BS.

He likes to have revenge, but only as a side effect of his plans (source: Retribution). He won't hunt Shepard during Reaper invasion just to punish him, that undermines every bit of his personality we have seen so far.

ME2 presents him as a good reasonable guy who likes to have others do the dirty stuff. If ME2 writing had any point at all, TIM surely has some sinister plan to destroy Reapers that involves nasty things done to Shepard. So you Cerberus fans can finally taste how it feels when it's YOU being experimented at!

If the intent all along was to hand Shepard over to the Collectors alive, ideally in a way that didn't blow Cerberus' cover 'make sure we don't lose him' still makes sense. It also puts a new spin on the lack of warning both with the Collector ship and derelict Reaper, and not mentioning the option of saving the base until the last minute. If he had tipped his hand, the Normandy crew incl Jacob and Miranda likely would have rebelled, blowing the transfer.

The Cerberus ships we see on the 'failed' cutscene could have been delivering replacement slushie parts.

[celuloid]

Moiaussi wrote...

If the intent all along was to hand Shepard over to the Collectors alive, ideally in a way that didn't blow Cerberus' cover 'make sure we don't lose him' still makes sense. It also puts a new spin on the lack of warning both with the Collector ship and derelict Reaper, and not mentioning the option of saving the base until the last minute. If he had tipped his hand, the Normandy crew incl Jacob and Miranda likely would have rebelled, blowing the transfer.

The Cerberus ships we see on the 'failed' cutscene could have been delivering replacement slushie parts.

Why TIM did not give him to Collectors during those 2 years they were rebuilding him? Only Cerberus knew what to do with his body? Or why did TIM send Liara fight Shadow Broker if they were both working for Collectors?

Modifié par celuloid, 11 mai 2011 - 09:33 .

[Halo Quea]

Someone With Mass wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I don't see why is it so hard to believe that ressurecting Shepard was just a gamble.

A gamble for what?

To acquire Reaper technology.

That's because some  people refuses to believe that Cerberus might betray Shepard, despite their past record of betrayal and very immoral actions against the betrayed.

That makes no sense, even to this TIM/Cerberus hater.

You don't spend the kind of resources that TIM spends to locate and bring Shepard back to life just to acquire Reaper tech.  Despite what many of you want to believe, Shepard is not Superman, and is not the only operative in the galaxy capable of accomplishing that mission.   With TIM's resources and connections, he could have hired anyone for that job.

The simple fact is that Miranda and TIM didn't even know if bringing Shepard back to life was even possible. First they had to locate the body, Liara reveals what a difficult undertaking that was. But even after that nothing is certain, Shepard could have easily died on the table or never woken up from that freeze coma. Shepard could have even been brain damaged, making any plans to use him/her utterly worthless.   You seriously can't believe that TIM engaged in this expensive and risky two year procedure just to point one man/woman in the direction of the O4R for the purposes of collecting technology.  

I'm sorry but those of you who believe this are really really reaching. 

The conversation that TIM and Miranda have at the very beginning of the game sets the entire tone for why they both feel that Shepard is important to humanity.  In fact, you can hear Anderson and Udina's conversation foreshadowing that importance in ME1. 

This is why so many of us are concerned about ME leaving it's storied scifi-rpg roots to embrace all of this cinematic-shooter badassery.   In ME1 you really understood that humanity is not very respected, or that our success at colonization and expansion is even guaranteed.  There are examples provided throughout the two games that prove that it's not going very well.  Humanity is fragmented, it's colonies divided in the Verge and the Terminus.  We're late arrivals to the galactic party and the other species know it, they've been in space for thousands of years already.  Humanity's press towards the stars has been more violent than enlightening, the process has been slow and not without it's growing collection of failures.  

TIM's interest in Shepard is not just about employing a capable soldier who can deal with the Reapers, that job is too big for one person.  It's also about what Shepard represents, and I believe TIM (in own twisted way) felt that was worth preserving. 

[Autoclave]

I suspect Bioware got influenced by EA about Making ME2 sort of stand alone game and thus not scary the potential customers that did not play ME1. Basically the introduction of Cerberus, and the overall plot disregarded a lot of stuff from ME1 storyline.

What they are doing in ME3, i don't know, could this be an attempt to fix their storyline. If you disregard ME2 completely, than Cerberus stay the same as their were in ME1: an enemy.

[lolwut666]

@Halo Quea

Name one person who can do what Shepard did.

Shepard is the closest thing to Superman the ME universe has.

And yes, it is worth spending that much money to revive a Superman to get you Reaper tech because that tech is worth a lot more than what Cerberus spent to bring Shepard back to life.

[Moiaussi]

celuloid wrote...

Why TIM did not give him to Collectors during those 2 years they were rebuilding him? Only Cerberus knew what to do with his body? Or why did TIM send Liara fight Shadow Broker if they were both working for Collectors?

Because he was wanted alive, and developing Lazarus required un-indoctrinated techs. 

Also one of the fun things about indoctrination is that you still are basicly you, and the effects can be subtile. He and the SB could both have been working for the Collectors with TIM thinking he was doing so to gain humanity an advantage and the SB doing so independanly for money. Since they both believed themselves to be freelancers, they would each want to themselves to gain, not the other to do so.

Also, if the SB was working for money and not indoctrinated, the Collectors/Reapers would have had just as much interest in getting their hands on the network as TIM/Cerberus would.

[Moiaussi]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Halo Quea

Name one person who can do what Shepard did.

Shepard is the closest thing to Superman the ME universe has.

And yes, it is worth spending that much money to revive a Superman to get you Reaper tech because that tech is worth a lot more than what Cerberus spent to bring Shepard back to life.

In ME1, that applies since the beacon info and cypher give Shep unique knowledge. Those don't seem to factor in to ME2, though, so in ME2, Shep's success is as much Cerberus stacking the deck against others as Shep's personal abilites.

[Halo Quea]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Halo Quea

Name one person who can do what Shepard did.

Shepard is the closest thing to Superman the ME universe has.

And yes, it is worth spending that much money to revive a Superman to get you Reaper tech because that tech is worth a lot more than what Cerberus spent to bring Shepard back to life.

You're making my argument for me.   The fact that Shepard dies and needs monumental efforts to bring him back to life proves how much of a Superman he ISN'T.  He is just as fraile and human as the next man.  

TIM did not revive him because he thought he was getting a Super soldier that he would gamble on recovering reaper tech.  If that was the case then TIM would have been trying to capture the Collector Ship, which would have been a far more easier task then sending Shepard and the Normandy crew through the unmapped O4R. 

[ExtremeOne]

Cerberus turning evil is stupid