214 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

@Abispa

Because, even if TIM could potentially earn Shepard's trust, *he* never got to fully trust Shepard.

@88mphSlayer

It's not a gambit unless it can fail.

[PrinceLionheart]

A plot device to explain why you're back to basics in the third game.

[PrinceLionheart]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

From what I can remember of Tali and Garrus' conversations from both games they don't like each other all that much.

No, but they still had the common experience of going after Saren being on Shepard's team. That Tali was willing to work with Cerberus at all tells me that she'd work with them even without Shepard.

Did you miss the part where she told Jacob she was only there for Shepard?

[Abispa]

@ PrinceLionheart -- Well, Tali did want to give Cerberus a grenade. I guess she wouldn't mind doing that without Shepard (?).

Actually, Saphra Deden, your comment confused the hell out of me, too.

EDIT: I got my names mixed up, sorry.

Modifié par Abispa, 12 mai 2011 - 02:55 .

[Abispa]

@ Saphra Deden -- Without Shepard there to convince her, why the hell would Tali EVER accept that TIM had the galaxy's (including the Quarians') best interests at heart, especially since it is pretty obvious that he doesn't?

[Seboist]

Abispa wrote...

@ Saphra Deden -- Without Shepard there to convince her, why the hell would Tali EVER accept that TIM had the galaxy's (including the Quarians') best interests at heart, especially since it is pretty obvious that he doesn't?

Jacob can use some Talk-Jutsu to "charm" her into joining.

[AK404]

Cerberus saved her on Haestrom, returned Veetor to the fleet, and showed her the proof of the Collector attacks and the connection to the Reapers. That could be enough to convince her.

No. Cerebus did not. Shepard did. See, here's the thing: Cerebus is bad news. Tali knows it, Garrus knows it, Liara knows it, Chakwas knows it, Shepard knows it. The only reason these people are on the Normandy is that they're working with Shep: Shep being with Cerberus is like your best friend having a rabid attack dog on a short leash - sure, it's your best friend, but you're not taking your eyes off that dog, and once your friend leaves without the dog, you are either going to run like hell or look for a very large rock.

Cerberus is a terrorist organization, but the NPCs trust Shep, and as Chakwas says, "I'm not working for Cerberus, I'm working for you."

It's a lot like the situation in ME1: none of the non-human crew members stuck around after Shepard died because they were part of Shepard's crew, not the Alliance. The same goes for Cerberus: aside from Miranda, not a single member of your squad has any reason whatsoever to trust Cerberus.

Modifié par AK404, 12 mai 2011 - 03:29 .

[KodiakAsh]

The premise that "anyone" could have done in Shepard's place is faulty for two primary reasons. 

First, when you take control of a pre-designed character you don't fully take control of their personality.  Saying Jacob could have done what Shepard did doesn't take into account his character. Give me control of limping Joker and some weapons and I could defeat the entire ME2 game with no allies and look like a bad ass.  That just isn't Joker.  The same goes for any number of characters within the game.  A character like Jacob would always react the same way to a situation based on his background, personality, and past.

Second, the whole story is about Shepard.  Shepard is pretty much hand crafted by you, the player, from scratch.  You choose his/her background.  You choose his/her reaction to situations (verbal or otherwise).   Where as Jacob would always react the same, Shepard could react any innumerable ways because he could have any numerous backgrounds.  Mass Effect (so far) has been little more than a giant story arc about Shepard. 


What was the point of Cerebus?  The sad truth is that Cerebus was more likely a convenient plot tool used to show off the Terminus systems since the first game encompassed the Council/Citadel systems.  You couldn't do it with Alliance or even as a Spectre cause you would have been more or less out of your jurisdiction.  Just the same you need someone bankrolling the operation, and destroying the ship gives them a chance to redesign the ship and them killing you and bring you back to life would (for MOST people) be enough to not really question why you're working with them.  They did bring you back from the dead and are allowing you to fight against the Reapers, after all.

As for Cerebus turning out to be all evil in the end, was that really a surprise for anyone?  Really?  They were terrorists throughout all of ME1.  Even in ME2 when working with them they constantly push the limits of the results at any costs and every time you catch them the Illusive Man sends you some email, "Oh but if I had only known I woulda stopped that ages ago..."  Yea.  I bet.

[Xilizhra]

I believe that Shepard was set up to be killed by the Collectors and retrieved by Cerberus so that they could stick Reaper implants in her, Sarenesque. Hence, when the Reapers do arrive, she can be made into an avatar. But perhaps something's gone wrong.

[vanslyke85]

I knew Cerberus was bad all along. The whole time TIM has reminded me of Hitler, he believes his species is 100% greater than every other species and will do anything to have them at the "top of the food chain" for lack of a better or shorter phrase. I'm quite sure he would wipe out a species to put humanity on top. It hasn't been said why Cerberus is after Shep, maybe it's cause some of the files you uncovered leaked somehow and the public got wind of everything cerberus had been up to so of course the blamed shep for this. of course shep couldnt work with them after all that and of course we know that there's a trial at the start of ME3 so obviously we're back with the Alliance which would also ****** TIM off. TIM could have been indoctrinated since way back in the comics when he started Cerberus and everything he's done since then, although subconciously, (until ME3 when he becomes a full puppet of the reapers) has been guided towards the destruction of galactic life. it's mind bagoozling whatever way you slice it...love this serieeees!!!

[Seboist]

vanslyke85 wrote...

I knew Cerberus was bad all along. The whole time TIM has reminded me of Hitler, he believes his species is 100% greater than every other species and will do anything to have them at the "top of the food chain" for lack of a better or shorter phrase. I'm quite sure he would wipe out a species to put humanity on top. It hasn't been said why Cerberus is after Shep, maybe it's cause some of the files you uncovered leaked somehow and the public got wind of everything cerberus had been up to so of course the blamed shep for this. of course shep couldnt work with them after all that and of course we know that there's a trial at the start of ME3 so obviously we're back with the Alliance which would also ****** TIM off. TIM could have been indoctrinated since way back in the comics when he started Cerberus and everything he's done since then, although subconciously, (until ME3 when he becomes a full puppet of the reapers) has been guided towards the destruction of galactic life. it's mind bagoozling whatever way you slice it...love this serieeees!!!

The Council must be "Hitlers" too for being a Salarian/Turian/Asari racial caste good ol' boys club that shuns other species from having equal representation and claims dominion over them.

[AK404]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AK404 wrote...
No. Cerebus did not. Shepard did.

No, Cerberus did. 

I think not: there's a huge world of difference between an organization and people who are in it, and in the ME universe, Shepard has always had the option of protesting his association with Cerberus.  Unlike the Alliance, Shepard didn't voluntarily sign up: he was Shanghai'd into service, which is like a US Marine being pressed into service by Al-Queda (you know, two organizations who fight and kill for their vision of the future for humanity) into doing things that benefit both and hurt neither (which actually puts the reactions of the VS into a more realistic light).  When your old associates see you...well, it's a testament to the loyalty that Shepard inspires that he wasn't shot on sight.
Regardless of his opinion of Cerberus, Shep will continue to have an antagonistic relationship with them, but he won't walk away from them because they're "trying to do the right thing."  OTOH, "doing the right thing" means being able to bend or break laws in order to do what needs to be done because apparently, the Alliance has its hands tied being paragons and all that.  (Yes, this entire game was a renegade interrupt.)

Most of the game involves the back-and-forth manipulation between Shepard and Cerberus: TIM manipulates Shep to do what he wants, Shep steals his ship and crew, final cumulation of their contest of wills is the Collector Base.  (I would've kept it, but I sure as hell ain't giving it to TIM, so hey, let's go Mad Stan and BLOW IT ALL UP!)
Anyway.  Response.
Tali wasn't earmarked for recruitment until it was demonstrated that Shepard could keep her in line: he's basically the juicy carrot at the end of the stick.  (No pun intended for the Talimancers.)  As it is, Tali only joined because Shep was there, and Cerberus only earmarked Tali because in to turn around Joker's familiar phrase, it'd be "just like old times."  (More familiar faces means you relax your guard more.) If he wasn't present in the rescue party, then Tali would have said 'no' and went back to the Fleet.
Remember, the first conversation she had with Cerberus in the game was her commanding her squad to hold fire because of Shepard.  In the first half of the game, Cerberus is clearly shown to be an organization that cannot be trusted.  The first conversation Tali had with Cerberus on the Normandy was with Jacob, Cerberus's friggin' voice of reason, and Tali brushed him off.  
Granted, I'm no fan of Jacob, but wasn't this the guy brought in for the stabilizing elements of his personality?

[lolwut666]

AK404 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AK404 wrote...
No. Cerebus did not. Shepard did.

No, Cerberus did. 

I think not: there's a huge world of difference between an organization and people who are in it, and in the ME universe, Shepard has always had the option of protesting his association with Cerberus.  Unlike the Alliance, Shepard didn't voluntarily sign up: he was Shanghai'd into service, which is like a US Marine being pressed into service by Al-Queda (you know, two organizations who fight and kill for their vision of the future for humanity) into doing things that benefit both and hurt neither (which actually puts the reactions of the VS into a more realistic light).  When your old associates see you...well, it's a testament to the loyalty that Shepard inspires that he wasn't shot on sight.
Regardless of his opinion of Cerberus, Shep will continue to have an antagonistic relationship with them, but he won't walk away from them because they're "trying to do the right thing."  OTOH, "doing the right thing" means being able to bend or break laws in order to do what needs to be done because apparently, the Alliance has its hands tied being paragons and all that.  (Yes, this entire game was a renegade interrupt.)

Most of the game involves the back-and-forth manipulation between Shepard and Cerberus: TIM manipulates Shep to do what he wants, Shep steals his ship and crew, final cumulation of their contest of wills is the Collector Base.  (I would've kept it, but I sure as hell ain't giving it to TIM, so hey, let's go Mad Stan and BLOW IT ALL UP!)
Anyway.  Response.
Tali wasn't earmarked for recruitment until it was demonstrated that Shepard could keep her in line: he's basically the juicy carrot at the end of the stick.  (No pun intended for the Talimancers.)  As it is, Tali only joined because Shep was there, and Cerberus only earmarked Tali because in to turn around Joker's familiar phrase, it'd be "just like old times."  (More familiar faces means you relax your guard more.) If he wasn't present in the rescue party, then Tali would have said 'no' and went back to the Fleet.
Remember, the first conversation she had with Cerberus in the game was her commanding her squad to hold fire because of Shepard.  In the first half of the game, Cerberus is clearly shown to be an organization that cannot be trusted.  The first conversation Tali had with Cerberus on the Normandy was with Jacob, Cerberus's friggin' voice of reason, and Tali brushed him off.  
Granted, I'm no fan of Jacob, but wasn't this the guy brought in for the stabilizing elements of his personality?

Why do you even bother?

Saphra Daden is just a delusional fanboy who runs on denial and stupidity.

Arguing with him will get you nowhere.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AK404 wrote...

I think not:

Well you think wrong.

Cerberus had the intel and the resources. Cerberus gets the credit.

Cerberus never gets the credit it deserves.

[AK404]

lolwut666 wrote...

Why do you even bother?

Saphra Daden is just a delusional fanboy who runs on denial and stupidity.

Arguing with him will get you nowhere.

Sorry, mistook him for a rational debater.  Should've known better when his entire responses are the equivalent of 'fail.'

[AK404]

Oh yeah, one of the significant things you learn in ME2 is that the Alliance and Cerberus are more than willing to trade intel and give each other advice. I would not be at all surprised to find that a lot of Alliance officers sympathize with Cerberus's goals.

I'm inclined to believe that Cerberus only exists to get the things the Alliance wants to keep its hands clean of...like unethical experimentation on alien species, Cave Johnson-esque experiments on kids, Alliance marines, and dead Spectres, shutting up inconvenient officers, etc. Cerberus wears a nasty face so it can keep doing these things, and then turns in the results to the Alliance, who then uses it to benefit humanity legally. (My goodness, where DID these test results come from? Oh, we captured them from a Cerberus base, wink-wink, nudge-nudge.)

That being said, why Cerberus or TIM would want to destroy an asset like Shepard doesn't make much sense. I seriously hope it's more than just indoctrination.

[Seboist]

AK404 wrote...

Oh yeah, one of the significant things you learn in ME2 is that the Alliance and Cerberus are more than willing to trade intel and give each other advice. I would not be at all surprised to find that a lot of Alliance officers sympathize with Cerberus's goals.

I'm inclined to believe that Cerberus only exists to get the things the Alliance wants to keep its hands clean of...like unethical experimentation on alien species, Cave Johnson-esque experiments on kids, Alliance marines, and dead Spectres, shutting up inconvenient officers, etc. Cerberus wears a nasty face so it can keep doing these things, and then turns in the results to the Alliance, who then uses it to benefit humanity legally. (My goodness, where DID these test results come from? Oh, we captured them from a Cerberus base, wink-wink, nudge-nudge.)

That being said, why Cerberus or TIM would want to destroy an asset like Shepard doesn't make much sense. I seriously hope it's more than just indoctrination.

Cerberus had a lot of sympathetic top Alliance brass prior to "Retribution".  Back in ME1  after the Kahoku side mission was done you hear on the news report that his death was covered up and this was after Cerberus went "rogue".

Modifié par Seboist, 12 mai 2011 - 05:33 .

[lolwut666]

@AK404

I doubt it. Humanity has yet to benefit from any technology developed by Cerberus. Plus they were once an Alliance black ops group before they went rogue. The average person didn't know about their existance, which would make them pretending to leave the Alliance really pointless.

@Seboist

They were just trying to avoid causing panic.

@laecraft

It seems like the Illusive Man is a very successful businessman.