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[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

So does that mean that parts of the Alliance are coming after Shep in ME3?

If Zulu's theory were correct it would but I don't think Cerberus is part of the Alliance anymore. In fact in ME2 there is no indication or mention that they were ever part of the Alliance. It wouldn't be hard to retcon that little tid-bit away by explaining that Kahouku was mistaken.

It looks like they retconned the Alliance origin. In the Teltin base during the breakout one of the security people talks about hitching onto the Alliance's Ascension program and this was during the time they were supposed to be part of it.

[M-Sinistrari]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's not really proof of anything. The CIA could hitch a ride on an FBI program say. Or the Air Force on the Army. Cerberus, whilst part of the Alliance, would still be a separate group within it.

That's one option.  Another is that the Alliance/Cerberus split wasn't something instantaneous which would fit concidering the assumed size of Cerberus.  I can see it being done gradual with cells breaking off, reports slowing in frequency, resources getting shifted around in small increments to not draw attention and so on until all that's left is just the proverbial Cerberus flipping the Alliance off.

[GuardianAngel470]

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

So does that mean that parts of the Alliance are coming after Shep in ME3?

If Zulu's theory were correct it would but I don't think Cerberus is part of the Alliance anymore. In fact in ME2 there is no indication or mention that they were ever part of the Alliance. It wouldn't be hard to retcon that little tid-bit away by explaining that Kahouku was mistaken.

It looks like they retconned the Alliance origin. In the Teltin base during the breakout one of the security people talks about hitching onto the Alliance's Ascension program and this was during the time they were supposed to be part of it.

I don't know, even if this were true I would be extremely hesitant to call it a retcon. My impression of a retcon is something intentionally done to force the storyline to have continuity. The ending of Portal 1, many Half Life storyline elements, Blue Shift and Opposing Force would be examples of true retcons.

That line is all of ten seconds long within 20+ hours of game. I find it much more likely that it was a slip up on the writing end that may or may or may not be corrected in ME3 or by the devs.

People really do throw that term around too much...

[Someone With Mass]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
People really do throw that term around too much...

And don't know the proper definition of it either.

[M-Sinistrari]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well yes, but that would still mean there was a moment where the Alliance realized they'd lost control. Without a doubt Cerberus didn't go rogue one day without making any preparation. TIM would probably spent months or years setting up the resources and assets necessary for Cerberus to break away.

I doubt the Alliance and Cerberus "difted apart". That would just be really irresponsible on the Alliance's part. You don't let such a potent and well equipped force dift away from you.

I look at it as just looking at our current world governments being capable of incredible stupidity, I somehow don't see that being eliminated by the time era Mass Effect happens in.  

I can see the Alliance officially saying the break off was sudden as a way to save face from a cascading effect of moronity.

[suprhomre]

Halo Quea wrote...

I think the entire thing stems all the way from the beginning of ME2. Killing Shepard and then having Cerberus bring him back to life was a colossal error in story telling if the only option now is for Renegades to have to fight TIM and his entire organization. Not that there should be much of Cerberus left after the events of Retribution.

What it must have cost to track down Shepard's body, the huge expense to bring one single human being back to life, the enormous costs of rebuilding the Normandy, hiring a crew, and then the dangerous expeditions of assembling an elite band of mercenaries and specialists.

It doesn't make sense that TIM would hunt Shepard now does it? But then again the suicide mission doesn't make sense either. At best it was always just a dark horse run into unknown territory. That the collectors were there building a baby reaper out of human koolaid was as completely unknown factor. In fact, if there was no baby reaper to destroy then the suicide run becomes meaningless. Keep the base, blow it up...............it makes no difference now. The only reason Shepard had to go through the Omega 4 relay was to save his abducted crew members. That's it because he sure didn't accomplish anything else. The Arrival now PROVES that.

It's very clear now that Shepard should have not been killed in ME2 and Cerberus given such a HUGE role in his resurrection. I'm forced to finally agree with TIM/Cerberus fans that gamers should have been given the option of whether they wanted to join Cerberus or stay with the Alliance.

Considering all of the covert missions that Shepard does for Hackett and the Alliance, s/he should have been able to convince Hackett or Anderson to give him the resources (under the table) to track down the Collectors independently of Cerberus' help.

This would have involved Shepard reassembling his old crew with a few new additions and doing the job the Paragon way, or having the option to join Cerberus if the Citadel Council took a hard stand with him/her operating in the Terminus. Such a plot would have worked if say TIM had hired his own team leader (a REAL antagonist) to track down the Collectors, a fight between both teams ensues over the IFF or maybe they both manage to make it to the Collector base and Shepard finally chooses to either blow it up for the Alliance to keep it out of TIM's hands or turn it over to Cerberus. Problem Solved.

This of course would have meant a much bigger story, more voice acting, more development time..............more cost to EA/Bioware. But it would have been better than turning TIM into a simple card carrying villain and stepping over the previous story that invested a great deal of plot mechanisms that turned Cerberus into an ally. Albeit a shady ally, but an ally still.

well said I agree totally.

edit: i will also want to add, that Ceberus motive to kill Shepeard, might be as simple as they just don't want Shepeard to reveal too much info on them if he now is back with the Alliance. Then, they (BIOWARE) should also give the player the option not to go back to the alliance. Hence, not entering the court. A more prohuman antogonist with differant allies in his battle against the reapers. As I see it ME3 will be very much more streamlined more then ME2. And the allies you get is the sum of your gameplay from ME1 and ME2.

Modifié par suprhomre, 12 mai 2011 - 08:21 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

I doubt they've retconned the Alliance origin completely--it's hinted at in Evolution with TIM's connection to General Williams. They may have pushed it back further into the backstory than it originally sat, though.

[MDT1]

Halo Quea wrote...

I think the entire thing stems all the way from the beginning of ME2. Killing Shepard and then having Cerberus bring him back to life was a colossal error in story telling if the only option now is for Renegades to have to fight TIM and his entire organization. Not that there should be much of Cerberus left after the events of Retribution.

I can't agree here. Only thing I see as error is that I and many others would have expected him to be a pile of ashes after what happend and not just "heavily burned". Fro a writers perspective it gives you an opportunity to learn about your next enemy from an inside point of view.

What it must have cost to track down Shepard's body, the huge expense to bring one single human being back to life, the enormous costs of rebuilding the Normandy, hiring a crew, and then the dangerous expeditions of assembling an elite band of mercenaries and specialists.

It doesn't make sense that TIM would hunt Shepard now does it? But then again the suicide mission doesn't make sense either. At best it was always just a dark horse run into unknown territory. That the collectors were there building a baby reaper out of human koolaid was as completely unknown factor. In fact, if there was no baby reaper to destroy then the suicide run becomes meaningless. Keep the base, blow it up...............it makes no difference now. The only reason Shepard had to go through the Omega 4 relay was to save his abducted crew members. That's it because he sure didn't accomplish anything else. The Arrival now PROVES that.

Sry, what does the Arrival prove? If it proves anything its that the human reaper was never inteded to replace Sovereigns role, I always wondered why people thought it should.

It's very clear now that Shepard should have not been killed in ME2 and Cerberus given such a HUGE role in his resurrection. I'm forced to finally agree with TIM/Cerberus fans that gamers should have been given the option of whether they wanted to join Cerberus or stay with the Alliance.

Considering all of the covert missions that Shepard does for Hackett and the Alliance, s/he should have been able to convince Hackett or Anderson to give him the resources (under the table) to track down the Collectors independently of Cerberus' help.

This would have involved Shepard reassembling his old crew with a few new additions and doing the job the Paragon way, or having the option to join Cerberus if the Citadel Council took a hard stand with him/her operating in the Terminus. Such a plot would have worked if say TIM had hired his own team leader (a REAL antagonist) to track down the Collectors, a fight between both teams ensues over the IFF or maybe they both manage to make it to the Collector base and Shepard finally chooses to either blow it up for the Alliance to keep it out of TIM's hands or turn it over to Cerberus. Problem Solved.

A renegade cerberus Shepard would have diminished the real Shepards uniqueness.

This of course would have meant a much bigger story, more voice acting, more development time..............more cost to EA/Bioware. But it would have been better than turning TIM into a simple card carrying villain and stepping over the previous story that invested a great deal of plot mechanisms that turned Cerberus into an ally. Albeit a shady ally, but an ally still.

I think celberus will have good pro human resons to hate you in ME3. Maybe your connection to Anders and or your returning to Earth or such things take part of their reasoning.
Or TIM is finally driven mad by something, which would be a bit lame I guess...

I understand that many people don't like the ME2 story but thats a matter of taste. The reason for this is often that your first choice to solve a problem isn't the option presented in the game, so its seems "not logical" to you.
Also the fact that an optimal solution for a problem exists doesn't mean it is chosen (see human history).
What I like about Shepard is that she's still human. In ME you succeed mostly because of her stubbornness and not because shes an uber human tactical mastermind (that was Sovereigns role and you see what happened^^).

Modifié par MDT1, 12 mai 2011 - 09:09 .

[celuloid]

Moiaussi wrote...

celuloid wrote...

Why TIM did not give him to Collectors during those 2 years they were rebuilding him?

Because he was wanted alive, and developing Lazarus required un-indoctrinated techs. 

And who wanted him alive? Collectors? Nope, Harbinger wanted the body and couldn't wait to get it.

Cerberus wanted Shepard alive.
1. To fight Collectors, who TIM believes are agents of Reapers. TIM gives Shepard 2 billion ship for this mission.
2. To learn about and sabotage Collector activities, such as making of human Reaper.

I do not see how working with Reapers is compatible with these undertakings.

[Moiaussi]

celuloid wrote...

And who wanted him alive? Collectors? Nope, Harbinger wanted the body and couldn't wait to get it.

Cerberus wanted Shepard alive.
1. To fight Collectors, who TIM believes are agents of Reapers. TIM gives Shepard 2 billion ship for this mission.
2. To learn about and sabotage Collector activities, such as making of human Reaper.

I do not see how working with Reapers is compatible with these undertakings.

My premise is that Harbinger wanted Shepard, dead or alive, but preferably alive, and this desire didn't arise until after the SR1 was shot down (explaining why the Collectors made no recovery attempt of their own).

The Collectors and SB had no way of ressurrecting Shepard, so for them, 'alive' wasn't an option, however Cerberus could offer a living Shepard. The trick of course was delivery. A living Shep would obviously resist simply being handed over, so he had to be sent blindly into traps to give the Collectors the chance to capture him. Such traps might also have served as tests for their new 'super soldier' too.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Cerberus shows up in ME3 with an army of Shepard clones. This would also provide an excuse for tougher opponents for Shepard.

[Halo Quea]

Moiaussi wrote...

celuloid wrote...

And who wanted him alive? Collectors? Nope, Harbinger wanted the body and couldn't wait to get it.

Cerberus wanted Shepard alive.
1. To fight Collectors, who TIM believes are agents of Reapers. TIM gives Shepard 2 billion ship for this mission.
2. To learn about and sabotage Collector activities, such as making of human Reaper.

I do not see how working with Reapers is compatible with these undertakings.

My premise is that Harbinger wanted Shepard, dead or alive, but preferably alive, and this desire didn't arise until after the SR1 was shot down (explaining why the Collectors made no recovery attempt of their own).

The Collectors and SB had no way of ressurrecting Shepard, so for them, 'alive' wasn't an option, however Cerberus could offer a living Shepard. The trick of course was delivery. A living Shep would obviously resist simply being handed over, so he had to be sent blindly into traps to give the Collectors the chance to capture him. Such traps might also have served as tests for their new 'super soldier' too.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Cerberus shows up in ME3 with an army of Shepard clones. This would also provide an excuse for tougher opponents for Shepard.

But Shepard had been alive, recovering and helplessly sleeping on a table for two whole years. 

TIM couldn't hand Shepard over to the Collectors until AFTER he woke up?

And then set up elaborate "catch me if you can" traps with the Collectors?  That would make TIM a very very stupid human being.  Lmao!!!! 

Miranda even wanted to implant Shepard with a control chip, TIM forbade it. 

If the plan was to turn him over to the Collectors, wouldn't it have made sense to use that chip to keep him immobilized until they come to........well.......collect him?  

[Seboist]

TIM working for the Collectors/Reapers all along would be something so stupid and convoluted that'd it put the MGS series to shame.

[Moiaussi]

Halo Quea wrote...
But Shepard had been alive, recovering and helplessly sleeping on a table for two whole years. 

TIM couldn't hand Shepard over to the Collectors until AFTER he woke up?

And then set up elaborate "catch me if you can" traps with the Collectors?  That would make TIM a very very stupid human being.  Lmao!!!! 

Miranda even wanted to implant Shepard with a control chip, TIM forbade it. 

If the plan was to turn him over to the Collectors, wouldn't it have made sense to use that chip to keep him immobilized until they come to........well.......collect him?  

Until Shepard awoke, they couldn't fully test whether they had a living, fully restored Shepard, or 'life support Shepard.' If all the Collectors needed was the DNA, they wouldn't have needed him alive.

If he had been ready sooner, why wasn't he awoken sooner? Remember the conditions in which Shepard woke. It may also be that they didn't expect him to be up that soon and were planning on a much more controlled awakening.

A chip might have changed him enough to reduce his value depending on what effects there are on physiology to have a control chip wired into your brain (assuming such chips even exist and the suggestion that they do wasn't a ruse to get Shepard more trusting of TIM).

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

TIM working for the Collectors/Reapers all along would be something so stupid and convoluted that'd it put the MGS series to shame.

I agree, but Shepard simply going along with Jacob and Miranda in ME1 isn't particularly good writing to many of us either.

[TheAzureVanguard]

Don't people ever get tired of this crap?

The point was that you teamed up with them to take down the Collectors. No one if the freaking Alliance was gonna help you. No one on the Council (new or old) was gonna help you.

So unless you wanted to DIE by yourself against the Collectors and fly a shuttle against the Collector Base I think you would want to team up with them....

[Dave666]

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

TIM working for the Collectors/Reapers all along would be something so stupid and convoluted that'd it put the MGS series to shame.

I agree, but Shepard simply going along with Jacob and Miranda in ME1 isn't particularly good writing to many of us either.

Agreed.  That along with the whole reason that we had to work with Cerberus in the first place.

Why are we working with Cerberus?

Because the Council won't help us.

Why won't the Council help us?

Because we're working for cerberus.

Why are we working for Cerberus?....

Its a completely circular argument.

[Seboist]

Dave666 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

TIM working for the Collectors/Reapers all along would be something so stupid and convoluted that'd it put the MGS series to shame.

I agree, but Shepard simply going along with Jacob and Miranda in ME1 isn't particularly good writing to many of us either.

Agreed.  That along with the whole reason that we had to work with Cerberus in the first place.

Why are we working with Cerberus?

Because the Council won't help us.

Why won't the Council help us?

Because we're working for cerberus.

Why are we working for Cerberus?....

Its a completely circular argument.

The Council wouldn't help regardless as Shepard was operating outside of their juristiction in the Terminus Systems.

[Il Divo]

Dave666 wrote...

Agreed.  That along with the whole reason that we had to work with Cerberus in the first place.

Why are we working with Cerberus?

Because the Council won't help us.

Why won't the Council help us?

Because we're working for cerberus.

Why are we working for Cerberus?....

Its a completely circular argument.

The Council refusing to help you had more to do with them not believing in Reapers than Cerberus' involvement. This was the case at the start of Mass Effect 2 where they send Shepard out to wipe out Geth/look for more evidence. Removing Cerberus from the equation does not result in the Council helping Shepard. It just happened to be the final nail in the coffin.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 mai 2011 - 04:37 .

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

The Council wouldn't help regardless as Shepard was operating outside of their juristiction in the Terminus Systems.

Funny you should say that, 'cause I remember bumping into Kaidan on Horizon (in the Terminus Systems) and Humans are part of the Council.  The Council can't overtly help you, but they could still have done so quietly, they do have Spectres there after all.  The only reason that i worked with Cerberus in ME:2 is because due to the way it was written I had no alternative avaliable.

Modifié par Dave666, 12 mai 2011 - 04:38 .

[Il Divo]

Dave666 wrote...

Funny you should say that, 'cause I remember bumping into Kaidan on Horizon (in the Terminus Systems) and Humans are part of the Council.  The Council can't overtly help you, but they could still have done so quietly, they do have Spectres there after all.  The only reason that i worked with Cerberus in ME:2 is because due to the way it was written I had no alternative avaliable.

Yet this logic can be applied to any game where a character is forced to join some organization. In Mass Effect 1, I did not have the option to betray the Council and join up with Saren, though he does give me the option. Writers railroading the player is not uncommon.

[Seboist]

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Council wouldn't help regardless as Shepard was operating outside of their juristiction in the Terminus Systems.

Funny you should say that, 'cause I remember bumping into Kaidan on Horizon (in the Terminus Systems) and Humans are part of the Council.  The Council can't overtly help you, but they could still have done so quietly, they do have Spectres there after all.  The only reason that i worked with Cerberus in ME:2 is because due to the way it was written I had no alternative avaliable.

Spectres have no authority outside of Citadel space.