214 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

TheAzureVanguard wrote...

Don't people ever get tired of this crap?

The point was that you teamed up with them to take down the Collectors. No one if the freaking Alliance was gonna help you. No one on the Council (new or old) was gonna help you.

So unless you wanted to DIE by yourself against the Collectors and fly a shuttle against the Collector Base I think you would want to team up with them....

So you bought the lines you were spoon-fed too.

The Alliance were doing something about the Collectors. They installed a gun on Horizon that was powerful enough to drive the cruiser off. The fact that it wasn't fully installed yet is bad luck than lack of effort.  He recieved no support on the Citadel because when he arrived it was at Anderson's request (rather than his own initiative), on a warship linked to Cerberus with a Cerberus crew, making no denials of working with Cerberus now, a group labelled as "terrorist."

There is no reason why Shepard, if he arrived alone with the shuttle at the Citadel or better yet, shut down the robot rebellion (he was in the ruddy robot control room and didn't even look at the controls!) and called in the Alliance cavalry to capture the place (the shuttle had to have communications, even if the base did not), you really think he wouldn't have been given a fresh ship? If they had captured the base, they would even have found the Lazarus equipment and proof of Shepard's ressurrection.

[Moiaussi]

Il Divo wrote...

The Council refusing to help you had more to do with them not believing in Reapers than Cerberus' involvement. This was the case at the start of Mass Effect 2 where they send Shepard out to wipe out Geth/look for more evidence. Removing Cerberus from the equation does not result in the Council helping Shepard. It just happened to be the final nail in the coffin.

Then why the gun installation on Horizon?

The Reaper thing is just Shepard being an idiot shouting "OMG, Reapers!" every chance he gets instead of saying "Reapers or not, some new faction shot me down and now colonies are vanishing. This new threat is significant enough that it should be investigated in case it is the start of some larger threat. The Krogan rebellions and Geth incursion started small too. You know I can get the job done, without starting any wars with the Terminus systems or anyone else. Let me investigate further."

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

TheAzureVanguard wrote...

Don't people ever get tired of this crap?

The point was that you teamed up with them to take down the Collectors. No one if the freaking Alliance was gonna help you. No one on the Council (new or old) was gonna help you.

So unless you wanted to DIE by yourself against the Collectors and fly a shuttle against the Collector Base I think you would want to team up with them....

So you bought the lines you were spoon-fed too.

The Alliance were doing something about the Collectors. They installed a gun on Horizon that was powerful enough to drive the cruiser off. The fact that it wasn't fully installed yet is bad luck than lack of effort.  He recieved no support on the Citadel because when he arrived it was at Anderson's request (rather than his own initiative), on a warship linked to Cerberus with a Cerberus crew, making no denials of working with Cerberus now, a group labelled as "terrorist."

There is no reason why Shepard, if he arrived alone with the shuttle at the Citadel or better yet, shut down the robot rebellion (he was in the ruddy robot control room and didn't even look at the controls!) and called in the Alliance cavalry to capture the place (the shuttle had to have communications, even if the base did not), you really think he wouldn't have been given a fresh ship? If they had captured the base, they would even have found the Lazarus equipment and proof of Shepard's ressurrection.

The Lazarus base was remotely destroyed after their escape.

[Il Divo]

Moiaussi wrote...

Then why the gun installation on Horizon?

Because human colonies are disappearing. This is a threat the Council is aware of. Reapers are not.

The Reaper thing is just Shepard being an idiot shouting "OMG, Reapers!" every chance he gets instead of saying "Reapers or not, some new faction shot me down and now colonies are vanishing.

Given his performance in Mass Effect 1, I'd say shouting out 'Reapers' is fairly in character for Shepard. He had no problem being an idiot then. Why should he change now?

This new threat is significant enough that it should be investigated in case it is the start of some larger threat. The Krogan rebellions and Geth incursion started small too. You know I can get the job done, without starting any wars with the Terminus systems or anyone else. Let me investigate further."

Shepard does not need an investigation. He wants some kind of action. He has two options:

1) Find evidence for the Council on his own that the Collectors are responsible and (by proxy) the Reapers, which means that Shepard has to start all over, before even creating a plan for how to fight them.

2) Work with Cerberus, an organization which is fully committed to stopping the Collectors and the Reapers, requiring no further proof from Shepard of their existence. They have also agreed to provide him with resources to fund his campaign.

I think the answer is pretty clear.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 mai 2011 - 04:59 .

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

The Lazarus base was remotely destroyed after their escape.

Well yes, but you do absolutely nothing to even try to prevent that. You find someone in the robotics control room that you are told is a traitor but neither you nor Jacob nor Miranda even look at the controls yourselves to see if there is any way to simply shut the bots down.  You just buy into the lines you are told and fly away while the evidence you have not been working for Cerberus for the last 2 years is destroyed behind you.

[Moiaussi]

Il Divo wrote...

Because human colonies are disappearing. This is a threat the Council is aware of. Reapers are not.

And what Reapers does Shepard actually fight while working with Cerberus? Hmm, the proto-reaper? The one that would have been destroyed taking out the source of the 'threat the council is aware of' ?

Given his performance in Mass Effect 1, I'd say shouting out 'Reapers' is fairly in character for Shepard. He had no problem being an idiot then. Why should he change now?

So you are complaining that the Council are refusing to back an idiot? There is a case to be made. He doesn't even try, he simply acts as if everything he says is self-evident, no matter how outlandish it sounds.

Shepard does not need an investigation. He wants some kind of action. He has two options:

1) Find evidence for the Council on his own that the Collectors are responsible and (by proxy) the Reapers, which means that Shepard has to start all over, before even creating a plan for how to fight them.

2) Work with Cerberus, an organization which is fully committed to stopping the Collectors and the Reapers, requiring no further proof from Shepard of their existence. They have also agreed to provide him with resources to fund his campaign.

I think the answer is pretty clear.

Pardon, but most of ME2 is 'investigation.'

Freedom's Progress (which is the point he would have been at just getting off the Lazarus base) is pure investigation. He doesn't even know yet that there is a link between the ship that shot him down and the disappearances.

The Normandy doesn't even fire a shot at the wounded Collector vessel on Horizon. The Collector ship trap was an attempt to find out where the Collectors are coming from. The Reaper derelict was an attempt to get the key to
get there.

If he had been investigating on behalf of the Council, that would all still have been neccessary. Working with the Alliance and Council in ME1, he had no problems with 'resources.'

[vanslyke85]

Seboist wrote...

vanslyke85 wrote...

I knew Cerberus was bad all along. The whole time TIM has reminded me of Hitler, he believes his species is 100% greater than every other species and will do anything to have them at the "top of the food chain" for lack of a better or shorter phrase. I'm quite sure he would wipe out a species to put humanity on top. It hasn't been said why Cerberus is after Shep, maybe it's cause some of the files you uncovered leaked somehow and the public got wind of everything cerberus had been up to so of course the blamed shep for this. of course shep couldnt work with them after all that and of course we know that there's a trial at the start of ME3 so obviously we're back with the Alliance which would also ****** TIM off. TIM could have been indoctrinated since way back in the comics when he started Cerberus and everything he's done since then, although subconciously, (until ME3 when he becomes a full puppet of the reapers) has been guided towards the destruction of galactic life. it's mind bagoozling whatever way you slice it...love this serieeees!!!

The Council must be "Hitlers" too for being a Salarian/Turian/Asari racial caste good ol' boys club that shuns other species from having equal representation and claims dominion over them.

The council are a bunch of stuck up old stubborn aliens whose beliefs and idelas have become outdated.  If you wanna call em ****s sure.  i don't think they're that bad but sure.  they are too stuck in the old ways, the galaxy needs new energetic leadership. 

[Abispa]

@ vanslyke85 -- Watch EVERY "tough cop" movie and TV show ever made and you get the same story of a cop who must do whatever it takes to bring down some serious bad guy that the lazy politicians underestimate. In fact, the cop has to risk being arrest himself because some silly technicalities exist that allows the bad guy to use the cop's own system against him. But he's a "tough cop," dammit, and all he needs is his best buddy and/or his girl (at least one should be a computer expert now-a-days).

Sorry, but your last comment reminded me of all the time I've spent watching those formula films. Thanks for the laugh (I mean that in a good way, not an insult).

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

If he had been investigating on behalf of the Council, that would all still have been neccessary. Working with the Alliance and Council in ME1, he had no problems with 'resources.'

The only key difference I can think of is that the Council and/or Alliance would not have attempted to use the Collector Ship trap against the Collectors, nor risked such a thing as a shackled AI. The derelict Reaper was also something only Cerberus knew about at the time, which... was kind of a freaking important point, actually. None of this is clear from the point where Shepard makes the choice to grudgingly work with Cerberus, however.

Cerberus's resources combined with their disregard for the political issues that held the Council back from direct involvement (with the Collectors and with regard to Saren's plans on Ilos) were instrumental in Shepard's victory, as was, to a degree, the Illusive Man's particular brand of ruthless efficiency. Like it or not, it actually was a necessary evil. Getting a stick up your butt about Cerberus at the expense of tens of thousands of people, especially once the the Council refuses to help you in any significant way, would be the real evil.

(Besides, it's not like they're totally against you. Hackett flat-out stonewalls elements inside the Alliance that wanted to detain Shepard because of his association with Cerberus, according to the Shadow Broker's dossier on him, and Anderson's running interference. Even if the Council refuses to reinstate your Spectre status, they don't openly oppose you, either. Sometimes looking the other way is as good as condoning something.)

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 12 mai 2011 - 11:59 .

[Seboist]

michaelrsa wrote...

Easy, Cerberus in ME2 was Bioware trolling you.

They made a ME1 bad guy into your supporter in ME2 knowing that some people would support them. Then ME3 comes around and Cerberus is the bad guy again. Cerberus fans scream "WTF, Bioware!" and Bioware responds "Problem, Cerberus fans?"

Personally, I was just as choked up about it. Who would have thought an organization that you fought in ME1 would betray you? I was very, very shocked.

All those ME1 Cerberus missions were a one sided aggression on Shepard's part against them. Also TIM didn't have problems employing other people who have killed his men like Zaeed and Jack.

TIM has the right idea and I support him 100%.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Seboist wrote...

All those ME1 Cerberus missions were a one sided aggression on Shepard's part against them. Also TIM didn't have problems employing other people who have killed his men like Zaeed and Jack.

Sometimes knowing that someone has the ability to kick one's own ass is a good enough reason to trust that they can kick your enemy's ass.

[Abispa]

EDIT: Dammit, why are my posts showing up in the wrong forums!

Modifié par Abispa, 13 mai 2011 - 12:11 .

[Seboist]

mrsph wrote...

Seboist wrote...
All those ME1 Cerberus missions were a one sided aggression on Shepard's part against them. Also TIM didn't have problems employing other people who have killed his men like Zaeed and Jack.

TIM has the right idea and I support him 100%.

Or he was just cleaning house and wanted those undesireables to die on the Suicide Mission. C'mon look at all the people on your team that have an agenda against Cerberus, or Cerberus would have an agenda against.

A quarian
A thief that steals from Cerberus
A mercenary that kills Cerberus operatives
A vigilante that could shift his sights onto Cerberus
A justicar who could swear an oath to fight Cerberus until her death
A messy experiment that needs to be disposed of (Jack)
A Cerberus operative that isn't exactly loyal (Jacob)
Another Cerberus operative that doesn't seem to have what it takes for the organization
Legion and Grunt are unexpected additions.

If TIM wants them dead then he just needs to give my Shepard the order.

[Dean_the_Young]

Don't be such a tool. TIM doesn't respect tools.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 mai 2011 - 12:13 .

[Warlock Adam]

Where is ExtremeOne? I demand his valuable input!

[Seboist]

Warlock Adam wrote...

Where is ExtremeOne? I demand his valuable input!

My Cerberus blood brother will be here eventually.

[Halo Quea]

Moiaussi wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

The Council refusing to help you had more to do with them not believing in Reapers than Cerberus' involvement. This was the case at the start of Mass Effect 2 where they send Shepard out to wipe out Geth/look for more evidence. Removing Cerberus from the equation does not result in the Council helping Shepard. It just happened to be the final nail in the coffin.

Then why the gun installation on Horizon?

The Reaper thing is just Shepard being an idiot shouting "OMG, Reapers!" every chance he gets instead of saying "Reapers or not, some new faction shot me down and now colonies are vanishing. This new threat is significant enough that it should be investigated in case it is the start of some larger threat. The Krogan rebellions and Geth incursion started small too. You know I can get the job done, without starting any wars with the Terminus systems or anyone else. Let me investigate further."

Hmph.  Unfortunately my Shepard wasn't provided with intelligent dialog options such as this. lol

My Shepard doesn't seem to know how to articulate his views without sounding like a whiny high school quarterback whose coach didn't give him the call to throw the game winning pass when HE wanted to. 

If I were a member of the Council and I talked with Shepard, I would have to conclude that while highly capable, s/he may not always be the best choice for Council missions.  If you want to get intel then you send an agent who will quietly cut through the glass window and retrieve the data undetected.  If you send Shepard he will throw a brick through the window, and blow the place up before he leaves. 

I recall Tali's trial, and even for Paragon Shepard that was almost a near disaster.  I kept thinking, "Doesn't Shepard know how to talk to people?"   Does he have to put it in everyone's face ALL THE TIME?   He can charm his squadmates but he doesn't have the ability or the patience to finesse individuals who may be in a position to help him or those important to him?

I know, I hear some of you now.  Shepard wants everyone to see the big picture, the Reapers Are Coming.  The trouble is Shepard doesn't present himself as an ally or a team player most of the time.  I know that after Sovereign he really shouldn't have to, but he needed to understand how to help Anderson by not being such a major political liability for his friend.  TIM, Cerberus, the Terminus, the Shadow Broker, Zaeed,Thane and Kolyat, Jack, Kasumi, and now even Garrus turned vigilante.  And all of this before The Arrival.

Shepard is bad news. 

If the goal of the story is to simply portray Shepard as this badass that can solve the galaxy's problems with a gun then ME3 is going to have a very two dimensional ending.  TIM will eventually go Muuhahahahahahahahaha!  and we'll get the typical "this is who I really am and I played you all along!" monologuing speech before Shepard kills him.

But it just seemed like TIM was smarter than that.  Sure he IS evil and things he does in name of helping humanity are incorrigible.   But TIM never struck me as being petty or stupid.  I really hope that's not where this is all headed.  

Modifié par Halo Quea, 13 mai 2011 - 01:24 .

[Il Divo]

Moiaussi wrote...

And what Reapers does Shepard actually fight while working with Cerberus? Hmm, the proto-reaper? The one that would have been destroyed taking out the source of the 'threat the council is aware of' ?

Cerberus believes in Reapers, so they help him stop the Reapers' proxy threat. The Council does not believe in Reapers. They won't help you. Your complaint seems to be that because we don't fight Reapers through all of ME2, Shepard should work with the Council, which has no idea what the hell is going on.

So you are complaining that the Council are refusing to back an idiot? There is a case to be made. He doesn't even try, he simply acts as if everything he says is self-evident, no matter how outlandish it sounds.

No, I'm saying that Shepard carrying the idiot ball all the time has been around since Mass Effect 1. If he's going to smarten up, great! But I don't have high hopes for it. He had no problem cruising through Mass Effect 1 with his Reaper fantasy. Why should he stop now? You seem to have a problem with that. I do not.

Pardon, but most of ME2 is 'investigation.'

Actually, you've completely missed the problem. There's two 'levels' of investigation Shepard must meet.

1) Proof that Reapers are real.

Illusive Man is completely behind you on point 1; he believes in the Reapers and has agreed to devote resources to stop them. Hell, the man went out of his way to resurrect you, pays for a brand new Normandy, is actually willing to combat the new threat, and yet you think it's a prudent idea to ditch him for the Council.

2) Find out what this current threat is.

Illusive Man requires # 2 and he's already agreed to help you. The Council does not believe either 1 or 2 and will not devote more resources to Shepard's lunacy. Shepard needs part 1 to obtain resources for part 2. He doesn't get whatever he needs for both.

Freedom's Progress (which is the point he would have been at just getting off the Lazarus base) is pure investigation. He doesn't even know yet that there is a link between the ship that shot him down and the disappearances.

See the two burdens of proof. Illusive Man believes in Reapers. The Council does not.

If he had been investigating on behalf of the Council, that would all still have been neccessary. Working with the Alliance and Council in ME1, he had no problems with 'resources.'

Wrong. Shepard dies. This is before all this debate regarding "Cerberus vs. Alliance". Hence, Shepard's resources disappear. Shepard is still pushing his 'Reapers exist agenda'. What exactly did you expect Shepard to do when he woke up? He is missing a ship, a crew, and has been MIA for two whole years. They are not going to reimburse him for all these things so that he can go chasing fantasies.

Everything you listed as being possible with the Council wouldn't have happened, as they (for the most part) don't enter the Terminus Systems on a regular basis. Unlike TIM who spends a great deal of time, their intel is limited. So rejoin the Council, in which case Shepard doesn't even have any idea that the Collectors are responsible (he wouldn't have gone to Freedom's Progress) or work with Cerberus and actually deal with the threat at hand.

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 mai 2011 - 01:43 .

[88mphSlayer]

Moiaussi wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

The Council refusing to help you had more to do with them not believing in Reapers than Cerberus' involvement. This was the case at the start of Mass Effect 2 where they send Shepard out to wipe out Geth/look for more evidence. Removing Cerberus from the equation does not result in the Council helping Shepard. It just happened to be the final nail in the coffin.

Then why the gun installation on Horizon?

The Reaper thing is just Shepard being an idiot shouting "OMG, Reapers!" every chance he gets instead of saying "Reapers or not, some new faction shot me down and now colonies are vanishing. This new threat is significant enough that it should be investigated in case it is the start of some larger threat. The Krogan rebellions and Geth incursion started small too. You know I can get the job done, without starting any wars with the Terminus systems or anyone else. Let me investigate further."

the gun installation was by the Alliance and it was unofficial to prevent provoking war if it was raids and not some imaginary collector threat

it isn't the council's job to protect human colonies and it never will be, Eden Prime was evidence of this

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 13 mai 2011 - 01:56 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

My best guess is that, for whatever reason, TIM is helping the Reapers because he believes that our "ascension" is for the good of our species. Maybe he's come to realize that the Reapers are simply unstoppable, or maybe he's so distraught by how quickly they overrun the galaxy that he believes the only way humanity will survive is by having its genetic legacy preserved in the form of a Reaper.

Or maybe he knows about the Reapers' true motives, and happens to agree with them? Maybe he believes trying to stop Shepard will "redeem" Cerberus and, by extension, humanity?

[ExtremeOne]

I am not buying this idea that Bioware will have a legit reason for it in the game . Why would TIM and Cerberus turn on Shepard when it was them that spent the money and effort to save him from the Shadow Broker and Collectors in the first place . Also why would they bring him or her back and then turn on you . I seriously think Bioware is doing this to please the ME 1 and anti Cerberus fans . I hate this idea that story from 2 does not connect to 3 .