142 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

The major point of your post seems to be that you want another game based on the same characters. That won't happen. It was meant to be a trilogy and will end as one. The galaxy is a big place and there will always be problems to base stories on. They don't all have to be galaxy destroying to be interesting and fun.

Not at all. I expect the Reaper arch to end with the Shepard one. I just don't think we should get all the answers and that doing so would diminish The Reapers, defeated or not. It also makes the entire Mass Effect universe seem rather false if every question that's ever been asked suddenly seems to get answered within the space of two to three years.

[Dem_B]

For me, this is good news. I joined the community almost a year ago. During this time, I often wrote about what me important motives and origins of the Reapers, because for me Mass Effect is special game, because I look forward decoupling secrets the dark and mysterious Reapers.
 

I'm involved in the story, I am interested in the motives and origins of the Reapers. That's why I play Mass Effect, to get an answer.

If the motives of the Reapers remain unknown, for me the story makes no sense.

I don't play in usual game, I am involved in the great story.
If the story does not make sense, if I need to just kill universe villains, I'll be disappointed.
 
Sovereign has said that their motives are beyond our comprehension.
But this does not mean that we can never understand.
You can understand when you're ready for it.
Knowledge does not come immediately, knowledge must be gradual.

I hope for a philosophical, metaphysical explanation of motives and origins of the Reapers.
I'm waiting something that will make me think, made me a different way to look at the course of events, the revelation.

[InvaderErl]

The Reapers have always been presented as a mystery to be solved. From the beginning Shepard has been asking "where do the Reapers come from", "why are they doing this" and to not answer those questions after TWO games in which it has been teased is bad storytelling of the highest order.

I'll give you an example of where not revealing the origins of the antagonist worked. The Alien series. There came a point very early in the first movie where everyone stopped asking "what is this thing? where did it come from?" and the only question left was "how do we kill it?" It was clear that the struggle between the crew and the alien had no greater implications than a brutal fight for survival. It was do or die and therefore such questions were ultimately meaningless. The Alien most likely had no such concepts of itself so why should we?

The Reapers don't work in the same way the Alien did. They have goals and motivations. It isn't just a case of do or die. We are trying to reverse a cycle that has literally determined the course of all galactic life for hundreds of thousands of years and in doing so as the viewer we need to understand the stakes, we need to understand what this was all about beyond kill the evil machines. The Reapers need to mean SOMETHING.

There's a point where you can be mysterious and be highly effective and there's a point where mystery turns into frustration on the part of the viewer and withholding the carrot JUST to avoid answering the questions in an attempt to come off as mysterious becomes a cheap parlour trick on the part of the storyteller.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 mai 2011 - 06:15 .

[Admoniter]

Rivercurse wrote...

Agree with Terror K entirely.

Vigil said it best, and to paraphrase because I can't be arsed to look up the exact quotation, "you're goal lies in stopping them, not in understanding them"

Learning new stuff about the reapers is fine, but don't just dump everything there is to know about them into the game.  There has to be some mystery left behind.  Some answers are better left to the imagination.  Like what Tali looks like under the helmet, like what the Reapers true motivations are etc. I'd rather have neither revealed, but I think I'll probably be disappointed on both counts.

I think this is a very good point that bears repeating. Yes at a certain point it does become the writer just dangling a carrot. But at the same time throwing all your cards on the time isn't much better. We are here to stop the Reapers, and yes the process of defeating them will more than likely reveal information about them, that however doesn't entail pumping the Reapers for information; (would waterboarding work here?)


To use another example the Halo series. The Forerunners were so so so much more interesting when we really didn't know that much about them. Sure they built the rings, were losing a war with the Flood, had some relationship with humans, but other than that they were a complete mystery. And then post Halo 3 the Forerunners lost their mystery and the Precursors were the new mysterious advanced species. And now we have Cryptum, and while it is a good read and I have nothing against Greg Bear. That said now we have Interstellar team ups between races that hate eachother, humans beating the Flood by infecting their population, humans being devolved, Forerunners not liking Precursors, Precursos going god mode on, Forerunners trumping there god mode with their own weapons that destroy souls... wtf. Long story short the Forerunners (and the story) were much more interesting when they were called Forerunners because that is all we knew about them, rather than the Forerunners themselves calling themselves that out of sheer hubris.

What I'm getting at is this yes ME3 is concluding the Reaper arc, so we will obviousley learn more about our foes; But that doesn't mean you have to throw it all out there. Keep some of your cards close to your chest. Have it so we know enough about them to kick them where the sun don't shine, but keep other parts shrouded in mystery. IMO its much more enjoyable to have beaten a foe but at the same time never know their ultimate goal (this ones no longer in the running courtesy of the T-800) or origins.

[AlanC9]

Yakko77 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The only thing I want from a mystery is to see it solved.

Be careful what you wish for.  In Star Wars we went from the Force being an energy that surounds life to meticlorians (bacteria in the blood or whatever).

True, but that was trading one answer for a different answer. If the choice is between midichlorians and nobody knowing what the force is or where it comes from, I'll still take the midichlorians.

[Bluko]

InvaderErl wrote...

The Reapers have always been presented as a mystery to be solved. From the beginning Shepard has been asking "where do the Reapers come from", "why are they doing this" and to not answer those questions after TWO games in which it has been teased is bad storytelling of the highest order.

I'll give you an example of where not revealing the origins of the antagonist worked. The Alien series. There came a point very early in the first movie where everyone stopped asking "what is this thing? where did it come from?" and the only question left was "how do we kill it?" It was clear that the struggle between the crew and the alien had no greater implications than a brutal fight for survival. It was do or die and therefore such questions were ultimately meaningless. The Alien most likely had no such concepts of itself so why should we?

The Reapers don't work in the same way the Alien did. They have goals and motivations. It isn't just a case of do or die. We are trying to reverse a cycle that has literally determined the course of all galactic life for hundreds of thousands of years and in doing so as the viewer we need to understand the stakes, we need to understand what this was all about beyond kill the evil machines. The Reapers need to mean SOMETHING.

There's a point where you can be mysterious and be highly effective and there's a point where mystery turns into frustration on the part of the viewer and withholding the carrot JUST to avoid answering the questions in an attempt to come off as mysterious becomes a cheap parlour trick on the part of the storyteller.

Bingo.

That said there's been plenty revealed about the Xenomorphs themselves. (Suspected they were genetically engineered, etc.) Doesn't really matter since the Xenomorphs more or less exist to be the ultimate killing machines. They spread and kill host species, there's really no greater purpose to them.

I imagine this is true for the almighty Reapers as well. They are form or life albeit very different from what we know, but their main motivation like any other living thing is more or less to continue growing both in numbers and ability. They may have more complicated goals, however I don't see the harm in learning of them. Their going to be right in our faces, and the best way to defeat your enemy is to know your enemy. We'll have to learn something. It remains to be seen whether we will learn all their secrets though. I'd be surprised if the Reaper threat vanished entirely after ME3.

[InvaderErl]

Bluko wrote...


Bingo.

That said there's been plenty revealed about the Xenomorphs themselves. (Suspected they were genetically engineered, etc.) Doesn't really matter since the Xenomorphsmore or less exist to be the ultimate killing machines.They spread and kill host species, there's really no greater purpose to them.

Oh of course I'm sure expanded universe stuff has revealed all of that but within the films the question is left very much hanging there with some bits that hint at possible backstories but don't outright say them and as you say there is ultimately no purpose in doing so.

Admoniter wrote...

I think this is a very good point that bears repeating. Yes at a certain point it does become the writer just dangling a carrot. But at the same time throwing all your cards on the time isn't much better. We are here to stop the Reapers, and yes the process of defeating them will more than likely reveal information about them, that however doesn't entail pumping the Reapers for information; (would waterboarding work here?)

What I'm getting at is this yes ME3 is concluding the Reaper arc, so we will obviousley learn more about our foes; But that doesn't mean you have to throw it all out there. Keep some of your cards close to your chest. Have it so we know enough about them to kick them where the sun don't shine, but keep other parts shrouded in mystery. IMO its much more enjoyable to have beaten a foe but at the same time never know their ultimate goal (this ones no longer in the running courtesy of the T-800) or origins.

*edited out the Halo bits as its a series I'm unfamiliar with outside of the main games and then only cursory so I really can't comment.

Its all in execution of course isn't it. Of course if you do the reveal badly and build off of that moment badly then the result is going to be bad.

I will throw out a counter-example of them revealing a character's backstory and it in turn actually developing that character.




Scorpius from Farscape was a figure that during seasons 1/2 and half of 3 was left very much in the shadows with goals and backstory only alluded to, but those goals were absolutely key to the show. There came a point where we the audience NEEDED to learn about him as he increasingly became intertwined with the central narrative.

It wasn't until the middle of season 3 that they revealed pretty much his entire life and it in turn made Scorpius a better character because now we had context and an understanding that we previously lacked.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 mai 2011 - 06:56 .

[CroGamer002]

If that doesn't happen smudboy will go in rage, again.

[didymos1120]

Terror_K wrote...

I have no problems with learning more about them, and perhaps us thinking that we know their motivations according to our own logic and reasoning, but that's rather different from actually knowing them in their entirety.

Yeah, you see, if the game makes us think we know, then it will seem just like actually knowing.  And you'll still be upset. And if another game or whatever comes along and says "Ha!  You thought you knew, but you didn't!" it'll just seem like a retcon. And you'll then be upset about that.

[Vena_86]

The less we understand them, the more we fear them. I really hope that not all is beeing explained, specially after the rather wierd stuff going on in ME2.

[hitorihanzo]

I vehemently disagree with the OP. I have had enough half told stories and half-assed answers. I did that with Lost for 6 years. I want an entire story told for once.

[Mister Ford]

InvaderErl wrote...

The Reapers have always been presented as a mystery to be solved. From the beginning Shepard has been asking "where do the Reapers come from", "why are they doing this" and to not answer those questions after TWO games in which it has been teased is bad storytelling of the highest order.

In the course of two games, Shepard has asked "why are they doing this" a total of 2 times that I can recall, both in one game.  He's asked "where do they come from" a grand total of one time.  I don't think that qualifies these as the central questions of Mass Effect.  Shepard has been much more concerned with finding a way to stop them, not understand them.

I don't want every question answered because frankly I think if they try to, it'll end up lame.  I don't see how there could be a totally satisfying answer to those questions.  Anything they come up with will probably be contrived and boring.  Just leave some things a mystery.  We really don't need to know anything else about them. And just because that might ****** some people off, it doesn't make it bad writing. 

And to people saying learning about the Reapers is why they play Mass Effect...wow.  The story isn't about the Reapers, it's about Shepard and his squad.  The Reapers exist to give Shepard something to fight against, they don't define the story.

[Dexi]

You fight against a force that clearly overpowers you and you want to win without knowing the most basic information about it: "what does it want?"

You kidding, right?


We NEED to know about the Reapers if we have any wish of interrupting the cycle.
Story-wise, it's the most logical thing to do ( if the story is to have a good ending): reveal what the Reapers want.

Of course, fan-wise, keep it a secret, but this is Bioware Social Community <---- nuff said.

Modifié par Dexi, 11 mai 2011 - 07:27 .

[Aramintai]

Terror_K wrote...
That's what Case Hudson said on his Twitter, and my instant reaction was "NOOOOO!!!"

YEEEEESSS!!!

 

AlanC9 wrote...
The only thing I want from a mystery is to see it solved.

This. I'm sick of Reapers' smug, long winded speeches of superiority, they all sound the same, as if they are programmed with phrases like "beyond your comprehension and understanding blah, blah, blah" or something. Time to throw them down from their evolutional throne and see what they're made of.

Modifié par Aramintai, 11 mai 2011 - 07:29 .

[Dexi]

Mister Ford wrote...
The story isn't about the Reapers, it's about Shepard and his squad.  The Reapers exist to give Shepard something to fight against, they don't define the story.

If so, then it wouldn't matter if the Reapers are revealed to us since they are just an unimportant little piece compared to Shepard. 

[InvaderErl]

Mister Ford wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

The Reapers have always been presented as a mystery to be solved. From the beginning Shepard has been asking "where do the Reapers come from", "why are they doing this" and to not answer those questions after TWO games in which it has been teased is bad storytelling of the highest order.

In the course of two games, Shepard has asked "why are they doing this" a total of 2 times that I can recall, both in one game.  He's asked "where do they come from" a grand total of one time.  I don't think that qualifies these as the central questions of Mass Effect.  Shepard has been much more concerned with finding a way to stop them, not understand them.

Both of these moments came during the climactic sequences of their respective games so they weren't just blurbs that passed by, they were treated very much as Shepard trying to understand the motivations and origins of his enemy at the brink of destruction.

Furthermore this whole "You don't need to understand them to stop them" mantra came from the Protheans. Who are dead. The Reapers greatest strength has always been the fact that their enemies know nothing about them, who they are and what they want. It seems fitting and thematically sound that knowledge would be key in their downfall.

And just by judging by more than a few of the comments in this thread, "What are the Reapers" seems to has certainly emerged as a central question.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 mai 2011 - 07:34 .

[Lunatic LK47]

hitorihanzo wrote...

I vehemently disagree with the OP. I have had enough half told stories and half-assed answers. I did that with Lost for 6 years. I want an entire story told for once.

This, and I'm actually glad I never bothered watching Lost.

[InvaderErl]

Somebody made a great point on the last page about Witch Hunt. That particular DLC tried to have its cake and eat it too, attempting to grant resolution without actually answering any of the questions that they had built up in the preceding year...

And it sucked for it.

[Fraevar]

I'm on the fence here. I think it's more a case of us feeling like the solving of the mystery will be too sudden in ME3. But I think most of us knew that was coming given how they dropped the ball with the Reaper arc in ME2. ME3 was always meant to conclude it, ME2 was meant to expand the mystery we had from ME1. It just didn't.

[AdmiralCheez]

I fully expect the origin and motives of the Reapers to be elegantly simple. An organic species that became so obsessed with its own evolution and survival that it completely left behind everything about itself worth saving in its vain pursuit of immortality and godhood? Or maybe they are simply an ancient race that has evolved and advanced to the point where they look at us the same way we look at blades of grass? Who knows?

We all know Sovereign was bullsh*tting, anyway.

[Kusy]

I'm cool with that.

[Leonia]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

I'm on the fence here. I think it's more a case of us feeling like the solving of the mystery will be too sudden in ME3. But I think most of us knew that was coming given how they dropped the ball with the Reaper arc in ME2. ME3 was always meant to conclude it, ME2 was meant to expand the mystery we had from ME1. It just didn't.

Yeah, I feel the same. Part of me wants all the answers, part of me doesn't want to know quite everything. I have a feeling that they'll give us enough to satiate our curiousity but leave a few dangling strands to be picked up on later in other games or to allow for some heated forum debates afterwards.

[Admoniter]

InvaderErl wrote...
*snip

Fair enough, it really does depend on how they pull it off.

[JediMB]

Yakko77 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The only thing I want from a mystery is to see it solved.

Be careful what you wish for.  In Star Wars we went from the Force being an energy that surounds life to meticlorians (bacteria in the blood or whatever).

The Force is still an energy field that surrounds all life. Midichlorians are simply how various lifeforms interact with the Force, and a scientific method of measuring Force potential.

[mcneil_1]

I just hope Mac isnt rushing the storyline and putting too much in ME3 to ruin it.