142 réponses à ce sujet

[xIxDarkWolfxIx]

thedaigakuinsei wrote...

You mean like, "Who made the first reaper? Because as far as we know gigantic organo-synthetic life forms with eezo cores don't just evolve out of thin air."

This ^

[WizenSlinky0]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...
Except that's not what generic shooters do. Usually they unveil everything, which is what you seem to want. Plus, ME2 is far from Bioware's best writing. In fact, I find it to be rather mediocre. Take police books, you get to know everything in the end, but that's because it's the whole purpose, unveiling the mystery. Good horror movies might explain elements, but never reveal everything, they keep the genesis secret, and that is the good writing as it gives you a sense of mystery, a sense of scale that unveiling everything would cheapen the experience. You'd be like: ''ah, that's it?'' Because the mystery gives always give you the impression that it's something truly exceptional, while it can never reach that level in reality if you explain everything. Mass Effect is about a sci-fi universe, about its mysteries and how we seem to be part of an never ending cycle. It's not just about the mystery itself, and it's the mystery that gives much of the game's appeal as far as the story goes in the first place. Explain everything, and it will not live up to the hype, to the mystery or what you're imagination felt about it. It's never as pretty when you know everything.

You're right. A generic shooter would need some sembelence of a story in order to reveal anything. They have none. No redeeming factor. But when it comes down to it, in almost every shooter I've ever played, I really have no idea why I was killing things except that it was shooting at me. I. Do. Not. Want. That.

Horrors don't reveal the mystery behind their characters because they intentionally leave them open in hopes of making 10 more movies out of it and milking our money dry in blind hope of finding something out. Plus, there's really no logical explanation they could come up with to explain half the crap they do in them (least ME has the benefit of being able to make crap up, being the future and all, but they are starting to stretch even that sadly). I don't call that good writing. I call it good business.

Mystery is just a nice way of saying "We have no idea what should go here, so you think it up yourself". I don't believe Bioware requires that kind of shabby tactic. Whether or not you believe their writing in ME2 is up to par of previous games, I still believe their writing team as a whole has a great record. I've never been disappointed by the story in their games, gameplay or certain features totally, but never the story. Nor do I believe I will be.

The mystery doesn't do anything for me in ME. The characters are what give the games life for me. The characters allow me to enjoy the story. And to not reveal the reasonings of central characters (reapers) it would be detrimental to their development and weaken the story.

I really don't have any expectations for them to disappoint. I try to avoid them. Only leads to disappointment, where as letting things play out as they will, tends to lead to pleasant surprises.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 11 mai 2011 - 04:12 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The-Person wrote...

A mystery is only as good as it's answers.

I don't think that I agree with this 100%, but in the case of Mass Effect, I do.

[Evil Johnny 666]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

You're right. A generic shooter would need some sembelence of a story in order to reveal anything. They have none. No redeeming factor. But when it comes down to it, in almost every shooter I've ever played, I really have no idea why I was killing things except that it was shooting at me. I. Do. Not. Want. That.

Come on dude, even the most generic and ****ty shooter have a story. Simplistic and bad story yes, but they have one. And hell, just check out Halo, don't you think the mystery helps the game a lot?

Horrors don't reveal the mystery behind their characters because they intentionally leave them open in hopes of making 10 more movies out of it and milking our money dry in blind hope of finding something out. Plus, there's really no logical explanation they could come up with to explain half the crap they do in them (least ME has the benefit of being able to make crap up, being the future and all, but they are starting to stretch even that sadly). I don't call that good writing. I call it good business.

Then you miss the whole point. You must not like horror movies at all. Because it's the unknown that is scary. If you explained everything about the Aliens (from Alien and Aliens) would they still be scary afterwards? Would they still be cool? Maybe. But you'd have to be a VERY good writer. That, and the unknown, the mystery can create some pretty sweet auras and feels depending of the whole thing. You have to not have seen many movies (or at least the good ones, Saw doesn't count of course) to say something like this. Hell, go read some Lovecraft.

Mystery is just a nice way of saying "We have no idea what should go here, so you think it up yourself". I don't believe Bioware requires that kind of shabby tactic. Whether or not you believe their writing in ME2 is up to par of previous games, I still believe their writing team as a whole has a great record. I've never been disappointed by the story in their games, gameplay or certain features totally, but never the story. Nor do I believe I will be.

That's why they resort to cheap Hollywood tactics (plot devices) and story-telling, cinematics and immature and ****ty jokes. Add-in some pseudo-intellectual bits (with the occasional genuinely good bits) and you got ME2. At least ME1 doesn't pretend to be clever or funny, or to be epic, it just is, it lets you feel it. In ME2, Bioware TELLS you such thing, that is poor writing.

The mystery doesn't do anything for me in ME. The characters are what give the games life for me. The characters allow me to enjoy the story. And to not reveal the reasonings of central characters (reapers) it would be detrimental to their development and weaken the story.

Characters are but one element among many others which give life to games. Atmosphere and mood being another strong one with the plot. I want to feel immersed, I want to feel something from the environment and the happenings. Mystery is a good element. But you don't seem to know much about it, it's not about being "mysterious" alone, like violence alone doesn't make anything good. It's how it's pulled off, how it works in conjuncture with other elements and if it's relevant. A galactic-wide space opera with some mysterious from the get go and obscure nemesis surely calls from some type of mystery. In fact, like it or not, ME1 and 2 are drenched in mystery. The reapers, the collectors, what they are and what they want, if it does nothing to you, well I guess either Bioware failed in that regard or you're just completely unsensible to this. I'm sorry for you. But I'm not against unveiling anything at all, but by not revealing that much. Unless you are the best writers in the world, what will be revealed will most definitely feel both underwhelming and cheapening everything you went through and felt towards the reapers.

You say characters are what gives life to games for you, but you gotta admit as characters for 2 games out of 3, the reapers are quite a bit underdevelopped no? It's not like a logical continuation or anything revealing everything.

I really don't have any expectations for them to disappoint. I try to avoid them. Only leads to disappointment, where as letting things play out as they will, tends to lead to pleasant surprises.

No offence, but I think either you have low standards or are easily impressed. Such type of revelation for such type of characters having such implications in a story is VERY hard to pull off successfully, and I have seen nothing from Bioware making me believe they are able to pull this off. Don't get me wrong, I think Bioware can write some great pieces of fiction, but they are severely overrated. Seems like no one here reads good books or watch movies with good plots. They are good, but merely a surprise among several others in the video game world. They're surely not that good.

I try to have minimal expectations, but at the same time, I just can't ignore my own standards and what I look in the medium and sequels (depending several factors). I have expectations for sequels, expectations that need to be met in order for me to enjoy the game to a certain degree. I just don't always judge a game alone no matter what on its merits alone, otherwise I'd play way too many games and not streamline my library to the best of the best. I don't expect Bioware to disappoint, in fact from what I read ME3 will probably be a lot better than ME2 (big part of this has obviously to do with the fact that ME3 isn't a "reboot" (expression), but acts much more as a sequel than ME2 to ME1, it actually seems to build upon game elements rather than scrapping most of everything and starting from scratch, which can lead to the same type of errors a first entry does, rather than actually fixing problems and making a better sequel in the process). But, I can see the difficulty of some things and be weary. If it ends up good then I'll have a good surprise, but if it ends up badly at least I won't be that disappointed.

It's just that for these type of things I enjoy some degree of mystery, and while I could live with a different atmosphere and learn the truth about everything, not only it would be less preferable to me, but a much more dangerous road to sucessfully do. Bioware's "your choices will affect other games" thing already is pretty simplictic and underwhelming - among other elements - that I've learned to not give them too much credit and expect something they never pulled off.

[Evil Johnny 666]

theSteeeeeels wrote...
yes, me2 is still about the reapers. the trilogy is ABOUT the reapers. if you dont want answers about what 3 games have been made around then i dont know what to say

That my dear, is for interpretation. Bioware boasted so many times how Mass Effect is about creating an entirely new universe and exploring it, something which I agree with them. Sure, the story, the very thing under everything is the Reapers, but that doesn't mean that the game is about that. I'm not sure how to properly explain it... Anyway, it's not because the story in a nutshell (and there's a lot of sugarcoating) being about the reapers that you need to know about everything. Just look at Aliens, the movies are about the Aliens yet we are never explained their origins or why they are so aggressive. Did we need to know? No. It's like that in so many stories, again, I think a lot of you guys haven't read or watched to many movies to state things you do.

yea they do teach you that actually, curious that you have to ask, shouldnt you know yourself..... ?

Why do you ask? Where did I seemed to not be able to read between the lines? I'm curious, you seem to attack (can't find the right expression) me without telling me what you actually think I did wrong.

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
Either
way, if BioWare plans to completely end the Reaper subplot in ME3, you
can bet they will reveal everything about the Reapers -- otherwise not;
they might leave part of the mystery for a spinoff, which I personally
don't see happening.

Ending the Reaper subplot doesn't mean much. It doesn't mean we have to know everything, only that their story is over. Killing them all without learning anything at all would be enough to end the subplot. Hell, Bioware could kill all the characters because of a giant black hole. The only thing you know to end something, is a closure. Nothing more. Now I'm not telling you ending something in any way is necessarily good, but that doesn't change what I said.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 11 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

[AngelicMachinery]

I raged at the last episodes of lost for no reveal, I will rage if there isn't an awesome reveal in Mass Effect.

[InvaderErl]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

theSteeeeeels wrote...
yes, me2 is still about the reapers. the trilogy is ABOUT the reapers. if you dont want answers about what 3 games have been made around then i dont know what to say

That my dear, is for interpretation. Bioware boasted so many times how Mass Effect is about creating an entirely new universe and exploring it, something which I agree with them. Sure, the story, the very thing under everything is the Reapers, but that doesn't mean that the game is about that. I'm not sure how to properly explain it... Anyway, it's not because the story in a nutshell (and there's a lot of sugarcoating) being about the reapers that you need to know about everything. Just look at Aliens, the movies are about the Aliens yet we are never explained their origins or why they are so aggressive. Did we need to know? No. It's like that in so many stories, again, I think a lot of you guys haven't read or watched to many movies to state things you do.

I've already covered Aliens.


social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/7354979/2#7355566

And Aliens is not Mass Effect. They're different genres and use their antagonists to different effect. The Alien has more in line with Michael Meyers (of the first Halloween movie) than it does with the Reapers.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 mai 2011 - 05:50 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Terror_K wrote...

That's what Case Hudson said on his Twitter, and my instant reaction was "NOOOOO!!!"

Seriously, this is stupid, IMO. It's one thing to think we know what The Reapers are all about, but their true motivation should remain a mystery. According to Sovereign it was all supposed to be "beyond our comprehension and understanding" after all. If we just find out what their true motives are and it's easy for us to understand, then that's just clearly not the case at all, and it just rapes The Reapers of all mystery and menace, IMO. Like the best horror movies tend to be ones that don't show the monster/horror/evil/whatever, The Reapers are best left with something largely still unknown about them.

I understand wanting to tie up all the major plotlines in the final chapter, but there's such a thing as tying up too many loose ends, and revealing too much. Also, if too much is explained and revealed, where will the ME universe go after this? If every question has been answered, even the stuff that doesn't tie directly into the main plot, what is there left?

This argument is stupid. That "mystery and et cetera" bull**** is just a reason not to explain things. That it comes out looking cool is all well and good, but at the end of the day Sephiroth is still a pretty damn vague and insubstantial villain with no clear present motivation for his actions.

The Reapers being explained--at least well enough to provide that much--would give us closure. The key is execution. It's one thing to say "Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father" and provide some backstory exposition about how he and Old Ben were once war buddies and crap, and it's quite another to tell every gory detail of how he was a whiny adolescent, etc. etc.

Explanation can sometimes even enhance that sense of darkness to the character.

[Someone With Mass]

I think it'd honestly be more annoying if the Reapers aren't explained, and you're constantly wondering "who/what created the Reapers?" "How did they come up with mass effect technology in the first place?" and so on. Doesn't add anything to this supposed "mystery".

[Evil Johnny 666]

InvaderErl wrote...
I've already covered Aliens.


social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/7354979/2#7355566

And Aliens is not Mass Effect. They're different genres and use their antagonists to different effect. The Alien has more in line with Michael Meyers (of the first Halloween movie) than it does with the Reapers.

Huh? I know. And that changes nothing. I never said it had to be identical to Aliens. There's different ways to do appealing violence and there's difference ways to do appealing mystery. I have no idea how the fact that Aliens is unlike Mass Effect excludes anything.... And even if there was only one way to do mystery, it's not because they're different than both couldn't be mysterious. In fact, Mass Effect is already a series with plenty of mystery, mystery which works in a totally different way than Aliens. A mystery that has been present for 2/3rd of the series, and will be present for at least a bit more of it.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 11 mai 2011 - 06:15 .

[InvaderErl]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...


A mystery that has been present for 2/3rd of the series, and will be present for at least a bit more of it.

Yes and the point of building up a mystery through 2/3rds of the series is to answer it, otherwise you shouldn't have been building it up and teasing it this entire time. That's basic storytelling.

And if you admit Aliens is a bad comparison to Mass Effect then you shouldn't have brought it up and rather used a  comparison that actually applies.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 mai 2011 - 06:22 .

[kill_switch_423]

But this community needs answers so they can nitpick them and pull them apart! It's what we do!

...

Seriously, though, as long as the reasons don't completely suck I'm fine with their motivations being revealed. Methinks it has to do with Dark Energy, as is hinted at in ME2, but that's just a theory for now.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

This argument is stupid. That "mystery and et cetera" bull**** is just a reason not to explain things. That it comes out looking cool is all well and good, but at the end of the day Sephiroth is still a pretty damn vague and insubstantial villain with no clear present motivation for his actions.

That's not bull**** at all. Sure you can't just throw mystery everywhere when you don't feel like explaining things, but it's at the same level that you don't necessarily need to do only shootouts to make interesting action. Sephiroth is not the best written character ever, but mystery does add, otherwise what would we be left with? Either someone who supposedly becomes bad for very good reasons, or someone who's just plain crazy. That type of antagonist is pretty simplistic, and I bet there wouldn't be much good outcomes. But that's not really the best example to debate.

As much as I loved Crono Cross and its story, they did unveil a bit too much. The game had a pretty intense atmosphere throughout, but at some point the story kinda nullified the appeal of several things. The story was still very good and all, well pulled-off so that's a minor complaint. But still. And imagine if they didn't had good writers.

The Reapers being explained--at least well enough to provide that much--would give us closure.

The only thing you need in a closure, is just that, a closure. There's no implications to that. Ending the reapers arc just means ending their story, ending their relevance to the universe. A story is... events told, you don't need much to make a story, and telling everything doesn't make something more of a story.

The key is execution. It's one thing to say "Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father" and provide some backstory exposition about how he and Old Ben were once war buddies and crap, and it's quite another to tell every gory detail of how he was a whiny adolescent, etc. etc.

The key in everything is execution. You know, mystery is not something you can throw anywhere and call it a day. Read some Lovecraft, and you'll know writing good mystery requires writing skills. It's all about the execution. It is NOT a cop-out. If you write mystery with that intent, you're just a bad writer.

Explanation can sometimes even enhance that sense of darkness to the character.

It always depend on the case, explaining something drenched in mystery from the get go, and managing to enhance that sence of darkness, you have to be particularly good. And Bioware are not the best writers I've read on Earth. Hell, even in video games better ones are not that rare. At least nowadays. Euh, even more back in the day...

[InvaderErl]

http://tvtropes.org/...risCarterEffect

Mystery for mystery's sake is not good.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

InvaderErl wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...


A mystery that has been present for 2/3rd of the series, and will be present for at least a bit more of it.

Yes and the point of building up a mystery through 2/3rds of the series is to answer it, otherwise you shouldn't have been building it up and teasing it this entire time. That's basic storytelling.

Basic storytelling? Tell me which basic of storytelling tells that you need to unveil every single mystery of a piece of fiction you write? Well, ME1 is supposed to be able to stand alone and does so pretty well without explaining the Reapers and all. I'm not saying nothing at all about the Reapers should be explained, but that explaining every single bit would cheapen a character so grand that our minds are not supposed to be able to grasp. And if we are able to grasp everything, it makes Reapers appear to not be so incredible after all, because all can be explained easily.

And if you admit Aliens is a bad comparison to Mass Effect then you shouldn't have brought it up and rather used a  comparison that actually applies.

You're the one pulling words out of my mouth, not me. I'm coming up with an example of good mystery, not an example of something that is totally in line with Mass Effect. Why would I need to? The thing I wanted to say is that mystery can enhance a story, no matter what type of story it is. Aliens being different than Mass Effect is totally irrelevant, what is relevant is that mystery enhance it in that case.


You guys really seem to view things in a very simplistic black and white view. Mystery is the result of plot points, of characters, of environments, all of which can be pulled off differently for a similar, yet different feel of mystery. All of which can work very differently depending on several things. That, and you always seem to take things out of context or misinterpret them easily. That, or you do that on purpose for your goal.

[Tamahome560]

Hell no OP.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

As much as I loved Crono Cross and its story, they did unveil a bit too much.

No, what Chrono Cross did was plot-dump. It had massive stretches of nothing and then at toward the end it just starts dumping all the relevant info at you in a massive box of text that might as well have been the player rocking a wiki or something. That's not effective plot exposition, at all.

The only thing you need in a closure, is just that, a closure. There's no implications to that. Ending the reapers arc just means ending their story, ending their relevance to the universe. A story is... events told, you don't need much to make a story, and telling everything doesn't make something more of a story.

If questions about what the Reapers are or why they did what they did hung around bugging us, especially after the story's made a point of trying to make you wonder those very things, then yes, closing the record on those questions, at least to a point, is a necessary part of finding closure. 

The key in everything is execution.

That's what I said.

[JamieCOTC]

Terror_K wrote...

That's what Case Hudson said on his Twitter, and my instant reaction was "NOOOOO!!!"

Seriously, this is stupid, IMO. It's one thing to think we know what The Reapers are all about, but their true motivation should remain a mystery. According to Sovereign it was all supposed to be "beyond our comprehension and understanding" after all. If we just find out what their true motives are and it's easy for us to understand, then that's just clearly not the case at all, and it just rapes The Reapers of all mystery and menace, IMO. Like the best horror movies tend to be ones that don't show the monster/horror/evil/whatever, The Reapers are best left with something largely still unknown about them.

I understand wanting to tie up all the major plotlines in the final chapter, but there's such a thing as tying up too many loose ends, and revealing too much. Also, if too much is explained and revealed, where will the ME universe go after this? If every question has been answered, even the stuff that doesn't tie directly into the main plot, what is there left?

Maybe Shepard will have to "evolve" in order to comprehend them.  That's what I'd like to see. 

[Evil Johnny 666]

InvaderErl wrote...

http://tvtropes.org/...risCarterEffect

Mystery for mystery's sake is not good.

Who said it was? That thing is totally irrelevant here as ME's mystery doesn't work the same way at all. You talk about endless series with countless mysteries, while the ME series is 3 games with not that much unknowns. Anyway, I don't like TV series and that's half part of a reason, coherence often gets kicked out. That, and those mysteries themselves are totally different than the feel I'm talking of in Mass Effect. I'm talking about Mystery with the big M, and not mystery with the little m which is more about keeping you guessing and watching something than actually creating an appealing feel and atmosphere. Sure I want to know things about the reapers like everyone else, but I don't feel like seeing the Reapers getting reduced to the same level as the council races rather than the galactic ever-existing nemesis.

[Cainne Chapel]

I'm going to have to disagree with you Johnny.

I believe some of the mystery HAS to be explained (maybe not all of it, they can keep some of their cards hidden) But for the most part I have a feeling that defeating the reapers lies in understanding them on some level.

Reason I feel this way is shared by many others, They've been an ongoing nemesis for 3 games, and the third game culminates with you ultimately stopping them (I assume).

In So doing it would seem at least somewhat necessary to explain SOME reasoning behind what and why they do, what they do.

If not it does seem like a cop out on some level. To not reveal ANY information on them other than what Sovreign and Harbinger say to you through their interactions i feel would be a let down.

now do we need a complete break down of their history and EVERY minute detail? No. But we need at least enough info revealed that it doesn't feel like we just beat the monster of the week you know?

[InvaderErl]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Basic storytelling? Tell me which basic of storytelling tells that you need to unveil every single mystery of a piece of fiction you write? Well, ME1 is supposed to be able to stand alone and does so pretty well without explaining the Reapers and all. I'm not saying nothing at all about the Reapers should be explained, but that explaining every single bit would cheapen a character so grand that our minds are not supposed to be able to grasp. And if we are able to grasp everything, it makes Reapers appear to not be so incredible after all, because all can be explained easily.

They'll tell you that the first day you take a writing workshop class. The first day. Being mysterious for the sake of it is a classic move that a bad writer will pull to try to create an effect that they actually couldn't manage on their own.

You can be mysterious and give answers in an air of mystery but they need to be answers. Otherwise you're jerking the audience around.

I'll post this again since I find it very much applies to the topic at hand and the downfall of this kind of writing.

http://tvtropes.org/...risCarterEffect

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...
You're the one pulling words out of my mouth, not me. I'm coming up with an example of good mystery, not an example of something that is totally in line with Mass Effect. Why would I need to? The thing I wanted to say is that mystery can enhance a story, no matter what type of story it is. Aliens being different than Mass Effect is totally irrelevant, what is relevant is that mystery enhance it in that case.

I'm struggling to think of any series like Mass Effect that seemingly refused to dole out answers about its most important plot points and wasn't reviled for it.

Because I can think of quite a few shows that tried to rely on mystery as a crutch and were called out on it.

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...
You guys really seem to view things in a very simplistic black and white view. Mystery is the result of plot points, of characters, of environments, all of which can be pulled off differently for a similar, yet different feel of mystery.

Essentially what you just said was Mystery is made up of plot points etc. that are used... to create mystery.

That's how you write when you have no idea where you're going and are trying not to reveal so. 

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

No, what Chrono Cross did was plot-dump. It had massive stretches of nothing and then at toward the end it just starts dumping all the relevant info at you in a massive box of text that might as well have been the player rocking a wiki or something. That's not effective plot exposition, at all.

We'll have to disagree. I loved doing things in that mysterious world, trying to find a way to the answers for a long time and then attaining what you were looking for and getting more and more answers. I found it pretty effective and well done. It's much more satisfying rather than telling you too much from the beginning.

Anyway, isn't it the road ME3 is taking? We didn't learn much (well a bit in ME1), and then we are supposed to learn the big mystery at the end of ME3? Isn't it what Chrono Cross did?

If questions about what the Reapers are or why they did what they did
hung around bugging us, especially after the story's made a point of
trying to make you wonder those very things, then yes, closing the
record on those questions, at least to a point, is a necessary part of
finding closure

The question isn't whether or not something provides GOOD (and that's subjective), but whether or not it is closure at all. The only thing something needs for a closure, is to end. Taking the Reapers out of the picture in any way is enough to provide a closure to their arc.

Personally, there are things I want to know about the Reapers, and things which I think will be better left unanswered as they gotta be underwhelming, and would cheapen the character. I never felt a need to know what the Reapers want or from where do they come from because I know from experience that knowing these things is rarely what you really want to know. Maybe give info about their origins, giving ideas about what they want to do, that would be pretty good in fact. But the whole thing? You never can make such big characters satisfying.

The key in everything is execution.

That's what I said.

Did you read what I said afterwards or did you stop there? You seemed to not take this into consideration when talking about mystery. That, and it's a pretty useless comment.

[HunterX6]

Terror_K wrote...

That's what Case Hudson said on his Twitter, and my instant reaction was "NOOOOO!!!"

Seriously, this is stupid, IMO. It's one thing to think we know what The Reapers are all about, but their true motivation should remain a mystery. According to Sovereign it was all supposed to be "beyond our comprehension and understanding" after all. If we just find out what their true motives are and it's easy for us to understand, then that's just clearly not the case at all, and it just rapes The Reapers of all mystery and menace, IMO. Like the best horror movies tend to be ones that don't show the monster/horror/evil/whatever, The Reapers are best left with something largely still unknown about them.

I understand wanting to tie up all the major plotlines in the final chapter, but there's such a thing as tying up too many loose ends, and revealing too much. Also, if too much is explained and revealed, where will the ME universe go after this? If every question has been answered, even the stuff that doesn't tie directly into the main plot, what is there left?

I disagree, they should reveal eveything and end the reapers, and then obviously start a new mass effect with a new story and new enemies

Modifié par HunterX6, 11 mai 2011 - 06:57 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

InvaderErl wrote...

They'll tell you that the first day you take a writing workshop class. The first day. Being mysterious for the sake of it is a classic move that a bad writer will pull to try to create an effect that they actually couldn't manage on their own.

I think we're not talking about the very same thing. I don't want mystery for the sake of it, I want mystery for what it brings to an atmosphere and story. There's a difference. It's not about hiding a lack of skill, it's about creating an atmospheric effect, something which requires as much skill. Because obviously you can't keep mysteries which has to be explained at some point.

Kinda out of subject, but there's usually there's things that don't necessarily respected. That was done in poetry. Back in the days you were supposed to write only in one way, else you would supposedly show lack of talent. Things which are not supposed to be done are done too in cinema to great effect.

You can be mysterious and give answers in an air of mystery but they need to be answers. Otherwise you're jerking the audience around.

You jerk the audience around if you are not explaining something that has to be obviously told. The Reapers' origin and goal is not something that HAS to be known. Sure the characters wonder about it (which is normal), but their main concern is saving the galaxy first and foremost. A goal, which doesn't necessitate answers to these. Though knowing why a human reaper was created can help understanding the Reapers' tactics. And it would be stupid to not explain since one of your goals was to destroy it. If you never know how it was dangerous to you, it's kinda cheap. On the other hand, you know how the Reapers acted in the past. Their origin and goal is their least important mysteries, but the one which helps the more shape their characters. If you learn that the reapers were constructed in a lab some million years ago for x reason, they wouldn't feel nearly as particular, their mysterious aura would be gone. Notice how I used the mystery word in different contexts. I'm more talking about the mysterious feeling, rather than a mystery in itself.

You know, they never explained from where the flood comes from in any Halo game, or where they were created (because that's why the rings existed in the first place). Did anyone complain? Did anyone feel entitled in knowing everything about the biggest mystery of the Halo series? No. Because there was no need. Halo IS about the flood, yet they manage to create a universe and story around it, revealing plenty of things and all without ever revealing the real deal. And that's great, because the flood being the centrepiece mystery, unveiling it would make everything else feel not as interesting as before.

I'll post this again since I find it very much applies to the topic at hand and the downfall of this kind of writing.

http://tvtropes.org/...risCarterEffect

Which has NOTHING to do about what I'm talking about. Bioware aren't piling up mysteries one after the other with Mass Effect. And that's not how the mystery I'm talking about works AT ALL. You completely missed my point.

I'm struggling to think of any series like Mass Effect that seemingly refused to dole out answers about its most important plot points and wasn't reviled for it.

The reapers' goal and origin isn't a particularly important plot point. It's what ties the story together (like the flood in Halo), but you never needed to know anything at all about it. ME1 is about Saren, learning about what the Reapers did with the galaxy and stopping it. ME2 is about the collectors, what they are and what they want, and then abou the reaper THREAT returning. Never was their origin or ultimate goal a major concern. Shepard thought about it only in the first game during a specific part, but it's not a major recurring theme at all.

Because I can think of quite a few shows that tried to rely on mystery as a crutch and were called out on it.

And I never said Mass Effect had to rely on a mystery as a crutch, you're missing my point again. It's about the mystery not knowing everything about the reaper creates being BETTER than knowing everything, not about how the game has to be all about this mystery, even more that it has never been the major concern of the games.

Essentially what you just said was Mystery is made up of plot points etc. that are used... to create mystery.
That's how you write when you have no idea where you're going.

It's kinda hard to explain, but anyway I fail to see what you mean to say. And it's "mystery is made up by plot points, etc." the rest is just repeating the beginning. Anyway, you seem to constantly miss my point, so it's hard to show you I know where I'm going.

[theSteeeeeels]

ok what would you actually like to happen? let us hear it

do you want us to kill the reaper threat, then game over? would that satisfy you thinking, "wow, i still know nothing about the reapers, mystery rocks!"

what would you like?