Dungeon Siege had it too (allthough that game is terrible).
Living world please and nice combat like in KOTOR.
Débuté par
Dariuszp
, mai 11 2011 07:59
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#27
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 06:29
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Dariuszp wrote...
simfamSP wrote...
A living world goes far beyond the amount of people in it. What made PS:T and BG a living breathing world was how rich the characters were.
You dont need to tell me.
Let's take Assassin's Creed for example. A brilliant game (I love it) and the cities are AMAZING. It is filled to the breach with NPC activity. But out of the hundreds there are what? 9-10 npcs that are remotley interesting (aside from the main characters.)
In AC you got plenty of NPC but that's not the point. Point is - bioware has almost NONE. It's ok if you are in some stupid dungeon but hey - if your in CITY and they spend 2 years to create CITY and then explain that the city is FULL OF REFUGES then i'm asking - how the hell is so empty ?
PS:T had Fell, the fallen Darius, it had a Quinn, Reek-Wind, The Stone/man warrior, the Wizard in love with candy at the Festhall...
Witcher has plenty of interesting NPC. So is Gothic and others. Tell me... is there ANY NPC you remember from Dragon Age 2 ? Because for example I still remember few from Gothic, Witcher, plenty from Fallout, few from Arcanum, from KOTOR etc. I really cannot recall any interesting person in Kirkwall. And i finished this game not so long ago.
If your asking Bioware to do something that will alienate the way they do things. Then I think it's a very unfair suggestion. The Witcher is a great RPG, I love it to bits. But it's not a BIOWARE game. All Bioware games have been similar to eachother. Apart from ME and JE the rest have had the same gameplay mechanics.
Disagree. Bioware games change a loot since the beginning. I know because I played them all. And really played ALL. From my point of view, things has change from good to worst or didn't change at all. Except graphic but compare to other modern games - not so good also.
Still if DA II shows direction where BW games are goint then they degenrate.
But I know where your coming from, but I think what you *want* is a AC kind of enviorment, or a Bethesda City... I'm sorry, but that can't happen in Bioware games, unless they want to the ditch further than they did in DA2.
Nope. I want few more NPC + some movement + day/night cycle. I dont even expect reaction on the rain or killing just next to them.
I just want BW to improve their games because as I say - some aspects didn't change and few of them got worst. And they have it all. The cities, combat animation, dialogues etc. Now what ?
Your opinions are confusing. First you disagree with my statement of PS:T, try to defend it with Gothic. Then agree about BG and KOTOR, then say KOTOR did *not* have a living city?...
Please, just tell me your having a laugh. Bioware games have always been great story and character wise. In my opinion and comparing to other games such as Oblivion or the Witcher; Bioware does things that no other game does.
I know what your asking for, and I agree with you to a point. Kirkwall was indeed life-less, it had no soul, and for it to be the main area for the entire game it needed to be.
But these types of games are much more open ended. Gothic was great (I loved the Old Camp,) and so was Risen, but these games are entierly different to Bioware games, they vary immensley on world design.
#28
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 06:36
deuce985
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Gothic isn't a good comparison because it is more open world. Witcher is a good comparison because it is not. Just as long as Bioware isn't moving to a open world concept, a living world would be nice, especially all the lore it contains. When I watched the Witcher 2 environment video earlier I almost cried when I fired DA2 up in Kirkwall...
The environments are so bland in DA2 that they can't even properly put a night cycle into Darktown. When you visit it at "night", it is actually day. BG is a excellent example of how you can make a proper world just by characters. Whoever said that above, I agree 100%.
A living world can add immersion to the story/characters if done right. You can get a sense of desperation in Kirkwall or political strife?
The environments are so bland in DA2 that they can't even properly put a night cycle into Darktown. When you visit it at "night", it is actually day. BG is a excellent example of how you can make a proper world just by characters. Whoever said that above, I agree 100%.
A living world can add immersion to the story/characters if done right. You can get a sense of desperation in Kirkwall or political strife?
Modifié par deuce985, 11 mai 2011 - 06:38 .
#29
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Posté 11 mai 2011 - 06:39
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deuce985 wrote...
Gothic isn't a good comparison because it is more open world. Witcher is a good comparison because it is not. Just as long as Bioware isn't moving to a open world concept, a living world would be nice, especially all the lore it contains. When I watched the Witcher 2 environment video earlier I almost cried when I fired DA2 up in Kirkwall...
The environments are so bland in DA2 that they can't even properly put a night cycle into Darktown. When you visit it at "night", it is actually day. BG is a excellent example of how you can make a proper world just by characters. Whoever said that above, I agree 100%.
A living world can add immersion to the story/characters if done right. You can get a sense of desperation in Kirkwall or political strife?
Dariuz, I think we misunderstand eachother, but this man/woman's opinion is what I'm trying to put out to you.
#30
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 08:02
Dariuszp
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Well, to end all this talking.
1. Kirkwall is a dead city with almost no people in it. Streets are empty.
2. BW could try to add some movement and stuff
3. They could put combat animation from KOTOR in their next game.
Thats my opinion. End of story.
1. Kirkwall is a dead city with almost no people in it. Streets are empty.
2. BW could try to add some movement and stuff
3. They could put combat animation from KOTOR in their next game.
Thats my opinion. End of story.
#31
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 08:36
Zanallen
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Rawgrim wrote...
Zanallen wrote...
First off, please show me a game with a living world that also has a large group of companions and party based combat.
Ultima 5 Lazarus, and the Ultima 6 remake.
So your evidence is fan made remakes of decade old games? Interesting choice, I suppose.
#32
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 10:21
Chiramu
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Mostly all NPCs don't move.
DA2 has quite a few moving NPCs and if you look closely a lot of them look like they are doing work.
DA2 has quite a few moving NPCs and if you look closely a lot of them look like they are doing work.
#33
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 01:12
Morroian
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Rawgrim wrote...
Zanallen wrote...
First off, please show me a game with a living world that also has a large group of companions and party based combat.
Ultima 5 Lazarus, and the Ultima 6 remake.
Using the original DS engine IIRC, which is how old? 10 years.
#34
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 03:57
pprrff
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What are talking about? KOTOR combat sucks, every character act like they all have asthma and need to suck on an inhaler every time they they do a thrust with light saber, plus Carth would miss half his blaster shots 3 feet away from an enemy. DAII would have been fine if they just get rid of the endless hoard of enemy and make the rest tougher.
Modifié par pprrff, 12 mai 2011 - 03:59 .
#35
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 05:28
Dariuszp
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pprrff wrote...
What are talking about?
Please, read the first post
KOTOR combat sucks, every character act like they all have asthma and need to suck on an inhaler every time they they do a thrust with light saber
Then what, drop it or improve it ? I say improve. Are you some of those people who prefer to give up every time they have a challenge ?
, plus Carth would miss half his blaster shots 3 feet away from an enemy.
Carth was not Shepard from ME. His combat animation was mostly the same, no mater the distance. Amount of damage he make was based on statistics. KOTOR was not COD or ME2...
DAII would have been fine if they just get rid of the endless hoard of enemy and make the rest tougher.
Yeah... you got less guts to explode because someone use a knife... this shole combat animation in DA II sux. Why ? Because you got swords like from Final Fantasy, movement from Devil May Cry, amount of blood and explosion like from some rampage of demolition expert from Bad Company 2 and when you combine those things while fighting, if your character is in the middle of things then well... you dont see a **** on the screen.
And 2 warriors fight look like 2 idiots that was exchange hits without a clue what they are doing.
They prepeare KOTOR and it was good. Not perfect but good. And then, they forget about whole thing and now it's sux.
And it can be done. Even MMORPG SW: TOR they are making have this kind of combat animation. Hell, player with sword can even block hits from behind his back, fight this way with few oponents etc.
They probably move their best team from KOTOR to TOR and now their new game are so bad.
#36
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 06:14
BanksHector
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I strongly disagree with your opinions on this. I do not care for the whole living world concept, and I have no problem with combat in the DA World. Yes, things can be improved but overall I enjoy it.
#37
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 06:26
AtreiyaN7
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If you want an open world - go play a Bethesda game or something? As far as a BW/Bethesda comparison go, the BW approach seems to me to favor a stronger narrative with stronger characters, If I want to explore at the cost of a fairly weak storyline, I'll play Fallout or some other game. Also, Oblivion didn't exactly strike me as being particularly "alive" just because of the NPCs milling around when they didn't do a single interesting thing.
#38
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 07:27
TheStrand221
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As gamers become more accustomed to seeing vibrant, realistic towns and cities in games Bioware is going to need to step up their environments. The focus on storyline doesn't mean other aspects of the game are unimportant, if it were I'd just read a novel for storyline purposes and play platformers on NES for gameplay. Not to mention that The Witcher 1 did a fair job of both and The Witcher 2 will be a vast improvement in all categories if it meets expectations, even if the series isn't your particular cup of tea. I don't think anyone is suggesting Bioware should start making open world sandbox games like Bethesda, I certainly wouldn't want them to.
But the real reason this issue keeps coming up isn't that DA2 focused on storyline and therefore has less immersive environments than other games, it's the shocking lack of effort but into environments. Horrible three second looping animations of merchants whose entire store consists of an 8 x 5 wooden stall or a single chest. The Lowtown armor merchant who has literally NOTHING in his stall whatsoever. The Hightown guards who lean casually against a wall as you slaughter thirty bandits right in front of them, gallons of blood and limbs flying everywhere. It's immersion breaking and flat out shows a lack of effort in developing a AAA title. Given that one environment encompasses almost the entire game... wow.
Arguing that storyline is the priority so nothing else matters is like arguing platforming gameplay is all that matters in Assassin's Creed. If that were the case, Assassin's Creed would have been an Ubisoft Prince of Persia clone set entirely in Templar Dungeons. Instead they created incredible, reactive, immersive urban environments to explore complete with historical landmarks and accompanying historical notes the player could read. My gameplay time on Steam for Assassin's Creed 2 is VERY long, and I've only done one playthrough. I spent hours just messing around in Florence, admiring the city, and visiting landmarks I've been to in real life. The realistic crowds react to even minor acts of acrobatics, pick up money you drop, and flee in terror when a fight breaks out. And you know what? For a game without an emphasis on story, and no interactive dialogue, I find myself caring a lot more for Ezio and his family in AC 2 than I ever did for the Hawke's. Sure I'm playing "someone else's character", but the characterization are done well even in if they're brief.
Whether you like these games or not, and a lot of people don't because they aren't the types of games they like to play and my point isn't that AC is better than DA, the amount of effort put into them is obvious. The same can't be said of Dragon Age 2's environments. I thought the story of DA2 was thin, but I liked the characters a lot and aspects of the combat were satisfying. However the environment's blandness is immersion-breakingly evident at every turn. Gamers are coming to expect more.
But the real reason this issue keeps coming up isn't that DA2 focused on storyline and therefore has less immersive environments than other games, it's the shocking lack of effort but into environments. Horrible three second looping animations of merchants whose entire store consists of an 8 x 5 wooden stall or a single chest. The Lowtown armor merchant who has literally NOTHING in his stall whatsoever. The Hightown guards who lean casually against a wall as you slaughter thirty bandits right in front of them, gallons of blood and limbs flying everywhere. It's immersion breaking and flat out shows a lack of effort in developing a AAA title. Given that one environment encompasses almost the entire game... wow.
Arguing that storyline is the priority so nothing else matters is like arguing platforming gameplay is all that matters in Assassin's Creed. If that were the case, Assassin's Creed would have been an Ubisoft Prince of Persia clone set entirely in Templar Dungeons. Instead they created incredible, reactive, immersive urban environments to explore complete with historical landmarks and accompanying historical notes the player could read. My gameplay time on Steam for Assassin's Creed 2 is VERY long, and I've only done one playthrough. I spent hours just messing around in Florence, admiring the city, and visiting landmarks I've been to in real life. The realistic crowds react to even minor acts of acrobatics, pick up money you drop, and flee in terror when a fight breaks out. And you know what? For a game without an emphasis on story, and no interactive dialogue, I find myself caring a lot more for Ezio and his family in AC 2 than I ever did for the Hawke's. Sure I'm playing "someone else's character", but the characterization are done well even in if they're brief.
Whether you like these games or not, and a lot of people don't because they aren't the types of games they like to play and my point isn't that AC is better than DA, the amount of effort put into them is obvious. The same can't be said of Dragon Age 2's environments. I thought the story of DA2 was thin, but I liked the characters a lot and aspects of the combat were satisfying. However the environment's blandness is immersion-breakingly evident at every turn. Gamers are coming to expect more.
#39
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 07:32
Dariuszp
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@AtreiyaN7, did you even read whole thing ? Is adding few NPC that just move around and create small crowd just to fell like you in the Kirkwall and not some post-apocalyptic ruins where every single person was dead because radiation is such a problem ?
It's the CITY. Did you even go outside somewhere in your life ? Because from your comment i thing you don't even know what I'm talking about.
For example in Witcher i never got a problem with finding interesting characters (more or less important, shopkeepers etc) even when some people move around, comment something etc.
It's just opinion. I don't even expect from Bioware to do same thing like CDPR with The Witcher 2 when you can just blast away barrel on other barrels that will destroy them. Create a mess etc and crowd will gather around to see what's happening, say some comments, show some interest and move along. Or some random folk talking on the street about his shoes collection. And when you go into his house you will find it.
In BW games (especially since KOTOR and newer) in-game world is just empty and not even interesting.
You say they favor stronger narrative and stronger characters. Yes but almost all mechanics that I'm talking about was in previous BW games. They just make it simpler or just remove it.
@TheStrand221
very good comment, 100% what i'm walking about here.
It's the CITY. Did you even go outside somewhere in your life ? Because from your comment i thing you don't even know what I'm talking about.
For example in Witcher i never got a problem with finding interesting characters (more or less important, shopkeepers etc) even when some people move around, comment something etc.
It's just opinion. I don't even expect from Bioware to do same thing like CDPR with The Witcher 2 when you can just blast away barrel on other barrels that will destroy them. Create a mess etc and crowd will gather around to see what's happening, say some comments, show some interest and move along. Or some random folk talking on the street about his shoes collection. And when you go into his house you will find it.
In BW games (especially since KOTOR and newer) in-game world is just empty and not even interesting.
You say they favor stronger narrative and stronger characters. Yes but almost all mechanics that I'm talking about was in previous BW games. They just make it simpler or just remove it.
@TheStrand221
very good comment, 100% what i'm walking about here.
Modifié par Dariuszp, 12 mai 2011 - 07:36 .
#40
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 08:46
Lumikki
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People this isn't open world vs closed story diriven world.
This is about how live the world around you are and how the npcs react what's happens near them. Do npcs just stand there day after day and do nothing or do they come morning to do they dayly job and leave when night comes. Do npcs say hello to other npcs and talk about something, like weather or political situation. Some of these stuff are allready in Biowares games like DA2, but there is still alot of improvement.
Example some children could playing something in streets and when it rain npcs could take cover. When there is battle in streets, most people usually leave the area or watch. One day there could be some acrobat perfomance in street corner. Other day some fisherman selling stuff. Next day some poor man begging coins. Dog barking when you pass. These are impression related details. These impression related details comes more important when player is forced to visit same places multible times. There need to be changes.
Night/day cycle was nice choise in DA2, but it was also so static. Meaning everyting in every day in same cycle was excactly same. When city lives, it change every day, meaning different people are in different places, unless it's people job to be somewhere in everyday. OP is trying to point that there is improve possibilities. That's all what he is saying.
This is about how live the world around you are and how the npcs react what's happens near them. Do npcs just stand there day after day and do nothing or do they come morning to do they dayly job and leave when night comes. Do npcs say hello to other npcs and talk about something, like weather or political situation. Some of these stuff are allready in Biowares games like DA2, but there is still alot of improvement.
Example some children could playing something in streets and when it rain npcs could take cover. When there is battle in streets, most people usually leave the area or watch. One day there could be some acrobat perfomance in street corner. Other day some fisherman selling stuff. Next day some poor man begging coins. Dog barking when you pass. These are impression related details. These impression related details comes more important when player is forced to visit same places multible times. There need to be changes.
Night/day cycle was nice choise in DA2, but it was also so static. Meaning everyting in every day in same cycle was excactly same. When city lives, it change every day, meaning different people are in different places, unless it's people job to be somewhere in everyday. OP is trying to point that there is improve possibilities. That's all what he is saying.
Modifié par Lumikki, 12 mai 2011 - 08:56 .
#41
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 09:21
Shadowlit_Rogue
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I agree completely with TheStrand221 on this one.
When it comes to RPGs, I'm all for any gaming element that encourages immersion. That would include day/night cycles, weather, and NPCs being at least minimally reactive to what's going on around them. And it wouldn't even be that crazy of an addition to the series; it seems to be the standard in RPGs 9 times out of 10, with that odd one out being DA2.
I hope that with DA3, they go all out and implement even a few of these things, and at least attempt to give Thedas a pulse.
When it comes to RPGs, I'm all for any gaming element that encourages immersion. That would include day/night cycles, weather, and NPCs being at least minimally reactive to what's going on around them. And it wouldn't even be that crazy of an addition to the series; it seems to be the standard in RPGs 9 times out of 10, with that odd one out being DA2.
I hope that with DA3, they go all out and implement even a few of these things, and at least attempt to give Thedas a pulse.
#42
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 10:07
Nexpeed
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I enjoyed my DA and ME series, never really had complaints about them game play, but yeah, their world is a bit static even with DA:O(just observe the camp), but a little improvements like a lifelike npc's giving life to a town or city would be more interesting. I hope in the next BW game, it'll make my pc walk around more about town listening and looking at npc's rather than just running of as fast for a task in-game but better if i can invite a party member to go to a tavern or pub to have a beer/ale before going to work a mission/quest....... almost just like DA:O's ogrhen lolz 
, try to implement that BioWare, coz' these days people wants to buy not just action games or storytelling games, they buy immersion 
, try to implement that BioWare, coz' these days people wants to buy not just action games or storytelling games, they buy immersion
Modifié par Nexpeed, 12 mai 2011 - 10:09 .
#43
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 11:52
Chromie
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AtreiyaN7 wrote...
If you want an open world - go play a Bethesda game or something? As far as a BW/Bethesda comparison go, the BW approach seems to me to favor a stronger narrative with stronger characters, If I want to explore at the cost of a fairly weak storyline, I'll play Fallout or some other game. Also, Oblivion didn't exactly strike me as being particularly "alive" just because of the NPCs milling around when they didn't do a single interesting thing.
Wow you didn't even bother reading. Look at the Witcher 2. That is not an open world game yet has both npcs with schedules and a weather system that affects how they act. To say Biowares wouldn't benefit from this is stupid considering Kirkwall is a city and should feel a live.
CDProjekt guess what....spent 4 years to make a sequel! Maybe DA2 should have had the same treatment. Witcher 1 and 2 are games about story and comparable to Bioware games.
Living World
Environments
#44
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 12:37
Ponendus
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Shadowlit_Rogue wrote...
I agree completely with TheStrand221 on this one.
When it comes to RPGs, I'm all for any gaming element that encourages immersion. That would include day/night cycles, weather, and NPCs being at least minimally reactive to what's going on around them. And it wouldn't even be that crazy of an addition to the series; it seems to be the standard in RPGs 9 times out of 10, with that odd one out being DA2.
I hope that with DA3, they go all out and implement even a few of these things, and at least attempt to give Thedas a pulse.
Yeah, I agree with this. I would like to see the focus most definitely shift towards 'immersion'. There are plenty of things that aided immersion in DAO, there were plenty that did the same in DA2, problem was that there were also plenty of things that broke it.
Really, how can you go wrong with a truly immersive game? The result will be that many people will be... immersed in it. Sounds like the perfect outcome to me.
#45
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 02:34
Chromie
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Ponendus wrote...
Shadowlit_Rogue wrote...
I agree completely with TheStrand221 on this one.
When it comes to RPGs, I'm all for any gaming element that encourages immersion. That would include day/night cycles, weather, and NPCs being at least minimally reactive to what's going on around them. And it wouldn't even be that crazy of an addition to the series; it seems to be the standard in RPGs 9 times out of 10, with that odd one out being DA2.
I hope that with DA3, they go all out and implement even a few of these things, and at least attempt to give Thedas a pulse.
Yeah, I agree with this. I would like to see the focus most definitely shift towards 'immersion'. There are plenty of things that aided immersion in DAO, there were plenty that did the same in DA2, problem was that there were also plenty of things that broke it.
Really, how can you go wrong with a truly immersive game? The result will be that many people will be... immersed in it. Sounds like the perfect outcome to me.
Can the DAO engine handle it? It seems kind of limited.
#46
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 10:32
Dariuszp
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DAO engine limited ? I will repeat myself here. Look what CD Project Red (CDPR) done with Bioware Aurora Engine (Neverwinter Nights was on it) when they make The Witcher.
Do you try to tell us that Bioware cannot do something like CDPR with their own engine while CDPR can ?
DAO is on different engine but i expect that their new engine should be better.
Or Bioware could just try to buy Red Engine from CDPR
Do you try to tell us that Bioware cannot do something like CDPR with their own engine while CDPR can ?
DAO is on different engine but i expect that their new engine should be better.
Or Bioware could just try to buy Red Engine from CDPR
#47
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 05:22
Nexpeed
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Unless EA forces BioWare to rush things for profit, those enhancements would never happen
#48
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 10:10
Guest_simfamUP_*
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LOL.
That would be Ironic.
2007
CDRP: Errm... Bioware, could you give us your Engine for our new game... please?
Bioware: Yeah ofcourse, here you go kid!
CDRP: Thanks mister Bioware sir!
Bioware: No problem! - pfft...noobs.-
2011
Bioware: Hey... remember when -
CDPR: 1000000 euroes no more no less...
That would be Ironic.
2007
CDRP: Errm... Bioware, could you give us your Engine for our new game... please?
Bioware: Yeah ofcourse, here you go kid!
CDRP: Thanks mister Bioware sir!
Bioware: No problem! - pfft...noobs.-
2011
Bioware: Hey... remember when -
CDPR: 1000000 euroes no more no less...
#49
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 10:27
Haexpane
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Listen, the Witcher 1 is a decent game, but people talk about it like it's some savior of the RPG genre. I don't even remember there being a party in the Witcher, I believe it was just that One Character... that you cant even customize!
I certainly don't want every RPG to be a non party based, no customization game.
I certainly don't want every RPG to be a non party based, no customization game.
#50
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 10:31
Gavinthelocust
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I think that before we should try a living world we should have background characters who don't look like something the PS1 shat out. Although only the human background characters look like ass while the elves and dwarves are painstakingly modeled, very confusing.
