17599 réponses à ce sujet

[bboynexus]

How was there any confusion about the Human-Reaper? I don't understand this fanbase at all:

http://forums.steamp...d.php?t=2011810

[CroGamer002]

^I never screamed retcon.

I'm just questioning why Reapers bother to build Human Reaper early even though they could have start to do it few years later.
It's not like this 1 extra Reaper would help them and it wasn't even near completion when they started to show up, if Arrival timeline is not after Suicide Mission by canon according to Hudson and Houston.

[CroGamer002]

^Why do they need schedule?
And Human Reaper didn't seem to need even a decade to be completed.
Only thing Shepard did is to slap them for destroying base or just destroying Human Reaper and Collectors.


As for Shepard?
Well they find out Shepard is alive pretty quickly.
Why no attempts to take him/her down again?
They only did once with making Collector Ship being disabled but that move seemed really desperate.

[KingNothing125]

The question isn't "why do it now?", it's "why not do it now?"

[Thalador]

Thrombin wrote...

iakus wrote...
So. wait.  Sovereign wasn't behind the Rachni Wars?    Or the wars weren't to capture the Citadel?

When did SIovereign realize there was something wrong with the Keepers, anyway?

Nothing says the Rachni wars were to capture the Citadel. Personally, I think Sovereign considered the Rachni a threat to the Reapers for some reason so he indoctrinated them  into attacking the rest of hte Galaxy, thus engineering their destruction.

Regards

Julian

I agree there. I'm currently speculating that the rachni are the perfect shock troops (the things TIM always want to get or create) against the Reapers. From the discussion with the queen, I get the feeling that rachni workers, warriors, and maybe brood warriors as well cannot be indoctrinated (since they are all mind-linked to their mother, hearing her song), only killed and impaled on Dragon's Teeth for "huskification" (hence the dev rumors about rachni husks). However, if you indoctrinate the queen, all her children will follow her commands that serve the Reapers' agenda. The rachni breed very fast, they are very quick predators, some of them have biotic capabilites, they are strong, and spit acid that bypasses shields. I believe these traits make them viable to become the perfect anti-Reaper infantry. Sovereign must have realised that, and quickly indoctrinated all the queens so those wouldn't fight against the Reapers in the coming war.

[didymos1120]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Why do they need schedule?

I don't think they necessarily needed one, but their preferred way of doing things was screwed up.  Likely, in a normal cycle, they'd jump in through the relay, then isolate everyone, have the Collectors test a sample of the most promising species in a Larva, and then go to full scale production if that worked out.  If not, start laying waste to that species too, or see if they can find some other use for them. 

This time though, they had to take the long way, and weren't going to be able to lock down the whole galaxy in an instant.  So, Harbinger has the Collectors take out Shep, and then move to the trial phase while they're stuck flying in from Dark Space.  That way, they know for sure whether to bother with humanity or just kill 'em all ahead of time, and can concentrate on dealing with a galaxy they don't have total control over.  Basically, I think to them it was more of a "May as well get this out the way now" thing. 

Of course, this raises the question of "Why risk the base?" but I don't think they considered that a likely outcome, nor do I think the loss of it particularly bothers them.  No matter what, they know humanity has what they're looking for, and they got plenty of time to either build another Reaper factory, have a backup somewhere (be rather odd if they didn't), or in the case of a captured base, are entirely confident they can take it back (and really, I don't see how Cerberus could keep them out if they really wanted it back.  At worst, Cerberus could just destroy it as a last resort).

[InfoGuy101]

Mesina2 wrote...
As for Shepard?
Well they find out Shepard is alive pretty quickly.
Why no attempts to take him/her down again?
They only did once with making Collector Ship being disabled but that move seemed really desperate.

You know that part of the game where you get to Horizon and the collectors start shooting at Shepard.

Or when they locate the Normandy with the Reaper IFF and capture the crew.

I think those count as attempts to stop Shepard too just saying lol. 

As for the reason to make a human Reaper before the Reaper get to the galaxy, they probably wanted to test if it would work like say a prototype as it seems Reaper construction/reproduction looks like it's pretty complicated and may not work with every sentient species like Arcian has suggested in previous posts.

[Candidate 88766]

This is my final take on events:

-Sovereign assesses organic life, believes they are 'ripe' for harvesting and contacts the Keepers to open the Citadel.

-The Keepers don't respond. Sovereign doesn't go straight for the Citadel because, as the Reapers have ensured the Citadel is the heart of galactic government, it will undoubtedly be heavily protected. Also, Sovereign won't know it was the Protheans that prevented the Keepers responding, so may believe the current civilization is more dangerous than it is.

-We have to assume that, either due to distance or the fact that they're in hibernation, Sovereign can only communicate with the other Reapers through the Citadel, either through the Keepers or directly. We have to assume this, otherwise we have to wonder why Sovereign didn't just contact the other Reapers at some point over the next few thousand years and tell them to get to the galaxy with FTL speeds - it only takes them a couple of years.

-Sovereign uses several plans to gain access to the Citadel. Firstly (at least in my opinion, there isn't actual proof of this), it uses the Rachni to cause a galactic war, hoping the Citadel fleet will be called away elsewhere or otherwise weakened, allowing Sovereign access to the Citadel directly. Or it could have been a war engineered by Sovereign to assess how powerful the current civilization actually was, and whether ti could risk just heading straight for the Citadel. This is thwarted by the discovery of the Krogan. Secondly, it uses Saren and the Geth to gain access to the Citadel, Saren having learnt about the Conduit. This plan is thwarted by Shepard.

-While Sovereign is attached to the Citadel, it manages to send a signal to wake up the other Reapers but is not there long enough to open up the Relay.

-When the other Reapers wake up, they realise that not only are they thousands of years behind schedule (civilization was 'ripe' thousands of years ago, so they may have advanced much further than anticipated by now), but with Sovereign destroyed the galaxy is now aware of the Reaper threat and may even now be preparing for it using the remains of Sovereign's technology.

-The Reapers make a beeline for the galaxy's back door, the Alpha Relay, through which they can still gain access to the Citadel.

-The Collectors have been, um, collecting samples of every species for a long time, perhaps from before Sovereign attempted to contact the Keepers, in order to determine which species would be suitable candidates for becoming Reapers. When humanity destroys Sovereign, the Collectors are told by Harbinger that humanity worthy and that construction of a Human-Reaper should begin to see if such a Reaper is viable. That way, when the reapers arrive they know whether to harvest more humans or destroy them, and construction of the Reaper takes place in the Galactic Core, away from any conflict.

-While Shepard destroys the Human Reaper Larvae, the Reapers know that such a Reaper is viable and that they need to gain control of Earth as quickly as possible to ensure they can harvest as many humans as possible before any war takes its toll on humanity's population. When the Alpha Relay is lost, the Reapers continue travelling at FTL speeds, eventually ending up at Earth.




This leads to several points of interest. Firstly, civilization has had a couple of extra thousand years to develop than would normally be possible, so perhaps we stand a chance. Secondly, the Reapers have had to travel at their top speed for approaching 3 years - they're going to be low on fuel by the time they arrive.




However, there is one thing that isn't explained. I said we have to assume that Sovereign can only contact the dormant Reapers through the Citadel, either due to the distance or the fact that they were hibernating. However, Harbinger seems able to contact and even control the Collectors over this distance. Perhaps the Collector Base has some kind of quantum-entanglement communications system - the nature of the Reapers' control over the Collectors would require a lot of instantaneous communication. The only other explanation is that whilst in hibernation the Reapers are unable to respond to anything but the strongest of signal,s which would be from the Citadel. This isn't a plothole, but I haven't been able to find a satisfactory way to explain it to myself yet.




Otherwise, I think my outline of events covers pretty much everything, doesn't contradict any lore or story points and explains pretty much everything. The only thing it doesn't explain is the Collector's interest in Shepard, but I imagine we'll find that out in ME3.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 25 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[CroGamer002]

InfoGuy101 wrote...

You know that part of the game where you get to Horizon and the collectors start shooting at Shepard.

They didn't attack Shepard because they planned that.
They attacked him since he/she went to screw their plans on Horizon.

They did not expect that Shepard was coming at all.

Or when they locate the Normandy with the Reaper IFF and capture the crew.

That one slipped my mind.
But that happen after Collector Ship.

They were just lucky to take over Normandy, but also unlucky since Shepard wasn't on ship.

I think those count as attempts to stop Shepard too just saying lol. 

As for the reason to make a human Reaper before the Reaper get to the galaxy, they probably wanted to test if it would work like say a prototype as it seems Reaper construction/reproduction looks like it's pretty complicated and may not work with every sentient species like Arcian has suggested in previous posts.

Why test out something what is not new for them?

And by the time that thing is complete, Reapers could have already reap most of galaxy.

[InfoGuy101]

Mesina2 wrote...

InfoGuy101 wrote...

You know that part of the game where you get to Horizon and the collectors start shooting at Shepard.

They didn't attack Shepard because they planned that.
They attacked him since he/she went to screw their plans on Horizon.

They did not expect that Shepard was coming at all.

Or when they locate the Normandy with the Reaper IFF and capture the crew.

That one slipped my mind.
But that happen after Collector Ship.

They were just lucky to take over Normandy, but also unlucky since Shepard wasn't on ship.

I think those count as attempts to stop Shepard too just saying lol. 

As for the reason to make a human Reaper before the Reaper get to the galaxy, they probably wanted to test if it would work like say a prototype as it seems Reaper construction/reproduction looks like it's pretty complicated and may not work with every sentient species like Arcian has suggested in previous posts.

Why test out something what is not new for them?

And by the time that thing is complete, Reapers could have already reap most of galaxy.

But you do agree that they attacked him maybe with the intent to stop him or kill him....ok lol?

I'm pretty sure the Reapers have never made a human Reaper before so it is new, just because the process works on some species in the past doesn't mean it will work with all, EDI even mentions that they may have failed to make a Prothean Reaper.

I don't think it needs to be complete to prove it if works or not just the core system which seem to work quiet well when Shepard fought the Human Reaper baby thing lol.

[Savber100]

*cough*

Take this somewhere else guys...

[Thrombin]

I think it's worth considering the Reaper's mentality. They are convinced of the insignificance of the struggles of organic life forms and of the ultimate futility of any attempts they might make to defeat them.

They are not going to make decisions based on fear of what Shepard or humanity might do to stop them. As far as they are concerned, they can't be stopped. Shepard and his kind are just dust on the cosmic wind before them.

They were woken up by Sovereign so they got the Collectors to start work on harvesting for the next cycle while they headed to the Alpha Relay via FTL. The possibility of anyone being able to take down the Collectors never even occurred to them, or of anyone destroying the Alpha relay, for that matter. The Collector ship was capable of taking down any other vessel in the Galaxy before the Normandy showed up and their base was impenetrable if it weren't for the existence of the IFF. I doubt that the Reapers realized a dead Reaper was even out there as, if they had, I'm sure they'd have taken steps to take it back with them when they left the Galaxy 50,000 years ago.

So, as far as they were concerned, there'd be no reason to wait for their arrival before harvesting. They're awake, the Galaxy's ready, they may as well get started immediately.

[Thrombin]

Savber100 wrote...

*cough*

Take this somewhere else guys...

Good point. We're probably veering a bit off topic now 

[Anacronian Stryx]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

This is my final take on events:

-Sovereign assesses organic life, believes they are 'ripe' for harvesting and contacts the Keepers to open the Citadel.

-The Keepers don't respond. Sovereign doesn't go straight for the Citadel because, as the Reapers have ensured the Citadel is the heart of galactic government, it will undoubtedly be heavily protected. Also, Sovereign won't know it was the Protheans that prevented the Keepers responding, so may believe the current civilization is more dangerous than it is

That doesn't make much sense, Sovereign has been monitoring the species of the universe for thousands of years he would know exactly what the capabilities of the young races are - I think it is far more likely that his thought were like this "If the keepers have been altered  then what else have been altered - have the citadel been turned into a big trap that will blow up my brethren when i call them? .. no investigation of the circumstances are necessary before i take any action towards the citadel"
 

-We have to assume that, either due to distance or the fact that they're in hibernation, Sovereign can only communicate with the other Reapers through the Citadel, either through the Keepers or directly. We have to assume this, otherwise we have to wonder why Sovereign didn't just contact the other Reapers at some point over the next few thousand years and tell them to get to the galaxy with FTL speeds - it only takes them a couple of years.

-Sovereign uses several plans to gain access to the Citadel. Firstly (at least in my opinion, there isn't actual proof of this), it uses the Rachni to cause a galactic war, hoping the Citadel fleet will be called away elsewhere or otherwise weakened, allowing Sovereign access to the Citadel directly. Or it could have been a war engineered by Sovereign to assess how powerful the current civilization actually was, and whether ti could risk just heading straight for the Citadel. This is thwarted by the discovery of the Krogan. Secondly, it uses Saren and the Geth to gain access to the Citadel, Saren having learnt about the Conduit. This plan is thwarted by Shepard.

All this is completely false since Chorban's mail states that the keeper signal is meant to go off right about now and not 2000 years ago (the time of the Rachni wars).

From: Chorban
I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me.

-Chorban


Sovereign tried to contact the Keepers right before the start of ME 1 or around that time (give or take a few years).

The Rachni wars were probably a stage in the normal "Farming of the crop".

Also we know from Mass Effect  Ascension that the reapers are capable of real time communication with Grayson from Dark space so it seems probable that Sovereign has to use the Citadel to communicate with the rest of the reapers.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 25 août 2011 - 02:21 .

[sighineedname]

Savber100 wrote...

*cough*

Take this somewhere else guys...

I'll second this. Please start a thread elsewhere.

[Vertigo_1]

Yes please, this is getting a bit off topic..

twitter.com/#!/manveerheir/status/106748741649833984
"So @BrenonHolmes added something secret to the game last night that I can't wait to try out. If it works well, it could be an amazing change"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/106749925030760449
"The Normandy is in the shop. Mass Effect3 crew has landed for PAX! Come check us out for hands-on and swag this weekend!"

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 août 2011 - 03:33 .

[LGTX]

Secret feature X/Y shaping up?

[Vertigo_1]

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/106118728902656001
"In fact, you can mix and match languages for the VO and subtitles however you wish too!"

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/106527879302627329
"Wait...does it mean we'll get to change the game's language via the option menu this time in #ME3?"

"Yep!"

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/106734507675234304
"I'll be able to have the english voices of the characters w/ french subtitles if I wish to? long tweet, I Know =D"

"Thats the plan, barring any unforeseen circumstances."

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 août 2011 - 03:52 .

[Lolomlas]

Someone would ask the Bioware guys about, what will happen in ME3 if my FemShep romanced Garrus, who survived the last mission, and after that in the Shadow Broker I continued my romance with Liara? Maybe a Garrus, Liara, Femshep threesome in ME3?

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Why do they need schedule?

I don't think they necessarily needed one, but their preferred way of doing things was screwed up.  Likely, in a normal cycle, they'd jump in through the relay, then isolate everyone, have the Collectors test a sample of the most promising species in a Larva, and then go to full scale production if that worked out.  If not, start laying waste to that species too, or see if they can find some other use for them. 

This time though, they had to take the long way, and weren't going to be able to lock down the whole galaxy in an instant.  So, Harbinger has the Collectors take out Shep, and then move to the trial phase while they're stuck flying in from Dark Space.  That way, they know for sure whether to bother with humanity or just kill 'em all ahead of time, and can concentrate on dealing with a galaxy they don't have total control over.  Basically, I think to them it was more of a "May as well get this out the way now" thing. 

Of course, this raises the question of "Why risk the base?" but I don't think they considered that a likely outcome, nor do I think the loss of it particularly bothers them.  No matter what, they know humanity has what they're looking for, and they got plenty of time to either build another Reaper factory, have a backup somewhere (be rather odd if they didn't), or in the case of a captured base, are entirely confident they can take it back (and really, I don't see how Cerberus could keep them out if they really wanted it back.  At worst, Cerberus could just destroy it as a last resort).

Well, that's better than my back-up theory.

I was thinking that the Collectors, besides just getting a general head start, may have been trying to provoke a Council-Terminus War, to get the galaxy divided by the time the Reapers come. The Collectors weren't just capturing Humans but setting ground work for a lot of chaos and discord: preparing an all-Heretic Geth force, perfecting the biowarfare virus to kill all aliens, but especially looking to divide the galaxy at the start.

The way I'd frame it, the Collectors never intended to capture colonies all the way to Earth. While the ship would be good for when it was time to harvest Earth, the real end-goal for the Collector operation would have been well before then. The more colonies the Collectors abduct, the more notice the colony abductions gain. Eventually, the Alliance would put other things aside and try and chase down culprits... and eventually chasing into the Terminus would have been a great way to start a Terminus-Alliance War.

Now, this is rather short on plot-intent evidence or implications, but it does make sense. It does fit the Reapers strategies of divide and conquer. And we even had the makings for an increasing escalation: by the end of ME2, the Alliance (Paragon Council) was beginning to send ships while Council agents (like the STG) began investigating in the Terminus in full. In the Renegade Council, we have on higher: the Human-dominated Council is using the Citadel Fleet itself in its investigation.


It would make sense if a goal/intention for the Collectors was, among other things, getting the galaxy to turn on itself to make things easier for the Reapers.

[Someone With Mass]

Lots of secrets.