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[Zulu_DFA]

Seboist wrote...

Wrex's character arc will forever be hampered by the fact that he's tied to the hip with his alternate reality brother Wreav.

Was there any big difference between the two with regards to the Krogan in ME2? Nope.

Wrex's arc is hamperd mainly by the fact that he is dead in the default ME2.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 mai 2011 - 12:47 .

[Cyberstrike nTo]

edit: double post. nevermind.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 12 mai 2011 - 12:45 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I'm still not fully convinced Garrus and Tali will be perma. But that's just me at this point.

It's not just you. So far really no characters have been solidly confirmed as perma-squaddies. Some of them have been strongly implied. For others, namely Tali and Jack, we've just gotten vague confirmation that they will be in the game.

Liara returned in ME2 and her story arc continued, but was she a real squadmate? No. The same can be said for Wrex.

Then it's just me and just you. And maybe just Bluko.

Move along everybody, nothing to see here!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Bluko wrote...
Yeah, I can only hope his role/cameo in ME3 will be pretty big. Like Wrex will be leading a Krogan army and get to do some badass stuff. A small sliver of me hopes he'll even join me temporarily to kick some Reaper butt in a single mission say on Tuchanka or something. But probably not.

See you can't really blame my reasoning. I mean look how they handled ME1 characters. If a character could possibly die, all they got was a cameo. Even if they could live (Liara), they still got slotted to a breif cameo. So yeah go figure some of us assumed they'd do it again. I mean what makes the ME2 crew more special then the ME1 crew? Pretty sure they only threw in Tali and Garrus at the last minute as sort of mere fan-service (well maybe not Tali with the whole Quarian thing, but for sure Garrus).

And honestly I think the only reason Tali and Garrus are being brought back as Squadmates in ME3 in some fashion is sheerly due to their fanbases. I believe Hudson himself said he didn't think of Tali or Garrus as real exceptional, but when they saw all fan devotion basically decided Gee we better throw these guys in ME3 otherwise the fans will kill us!

The thing is, Wrex is dead in more than 50% of all saves (50% of people use the default ME2 save, Compare that to the average player, who loses only 15% of their squad during the SM (see link earlier in this thread). That means that the average ME2 character is probably dead in only 1.5-5% of all saves. There's a much smaller risk of people not seeing content, there. In a situation where 50+% of players have someone dead, the need to make replacement content is far higher when it is only 1.5% of players who will miss it. 10% of players never even let Grunt out of his tank, for goodness sake.

Also bear in mind that these boards are just a small, small part of the data Bioware has access to. They also have records for who gets taken to missions, who gets romanced, who dies, etc, from all save games where players allowed their data to be gathered. So it could be that these decisions are based primarily upon that data - data that they have already said established Garrus as a fan favorite.

Finally, I think that a mission or two worth of playtime is more than a cameo, though less than a "permanent" squaddie. Similarly, a squaddie who becomes permanent late in the game, still counts, so we might have a few characters who join up around the same time as Legion did in ME2. I also think it's rather disingenous to say "back for a few missions" equals "cameo." 

[Warlock Adam]

^This, particularly the middle paragraph. We are all very much a minority against the awesome power of the casual gamer

[Bluko]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The thing is, Wrex is dead in more than 50% of all saves (50% of people use the default ME2 save, Compare that to the average player, who loses only 15% of their squad during the SM (see link earlier in this thread). That means that the average ME2 character is probably dead in only 1.5-5% of all saves. There's a much smaller risk of people not seeing content, there. In a situation where 50+% of players have someone dead, the need to make replacement content is far higher when it is only 1.5% of players who will miss it. 10% of players never even let Grunt out of his tank, for goodness sake.

Sometimes I wonder who's playing these games. You don't need that many Charm/Intimidate points and by Virmire you'd think folks would figure out they need to invest in Charm/Intimidate. I can see some Renegade players killing Wrex to be basderts. But I mean come on there's even Wrex's armor quest.

I'm surprised about ME2 loses, but then again you're almost told exactly what you need to keep everyone safe so go figure people don't lose much more then 1-2 squadmates.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Finally, I think that a mission or two worth of playtime is more than a cameo, though less than a "permanent" squaddie. Similarly, a squaddie who becomes permanent late in the game, still counts, so we might have a few characters who join up around the same time as Legion did in ME2. I also think it's rather disingenous to say "back for a few missions" equals "cameo." 

True technically even having them involved in a mission makes them more then a cameo. The word is used bit loosely around here, as technically cameos are things like when you simply just see a character/actor breifly. That said neither Wrex or Liara really were cameo roles. Stan Lee's appearence in the Marvel films is what a cameo truly is. Although for the sake of simplicity I still use cameo to describe a character with a largely reduced role i.e. someone who only has one conversation with you for the game.

Eh I doubt characters will join Shepard real late in-game. I expect it to be more like ME1 where you more less get just about everyone right away, at least the permanent members.

I don't think any ME2 crew member will be reduced to a true "cameo" but I expect that you'll either simply have a breif encounter where you can talk to them some or hopefully they'll help you out with some mission. I would expect Garrus and Tali will have significant mission roles, but having them around for the majority of the game as permanent crew members seems like a bit of stretch.

[Seboist]

There are people who kill Wrex because they never talked to him or bothered using him in their squad ya know. That's why I almost ended up killing him in my first playthrough.

[The Spamming Troll]

theres no way wrex died in 50% of the games. even so, i never play as a renegade. meaning theres a whole other die of the game that i never even touch. its a tough call to say who is perma and who is semiperm, but id gaurantee at the very least well have a 1.5 hours destruction fest with wrex at our side. hell prolly jut be hanging out by my side when im in the 50 FT mech.

do we actually not want a character like that?!?!?

[PrinceLionheart]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Bluko: Friendship. Like Liara, Tali and Garrus honestly trust and care about Shepard, regardless of romance. Spock, Bones, Ron, and Hermoine weren't exactly plot-essential, either, but sometimes the role of "bro4life" is enough to merit a return.

I can respect that, but it seemed like Garrus and Tali became a little too co-dependant on Shepard in the second game.

[AdmiralCheez]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

I can respect that, but it seemed like Garrus and Tali became a little too co-dependant on Shepard in the second game.

EVERYONE was co-dependant on Shepard in the second game.

[Warlock Adam]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

I can respect that, but it seemed like Garrus and Tali became a little too co-dependant on Shepard in the second game.

EVERYONE was co-dependant on Shepard in the second game.

Except perhaps Jack.

"F*** off!"

[PrinceLionheart]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

I can respect that, but it seemed like Garrus and Tali became a little too co-dependant on Shepard in the second game.

EVERYONE was co-dependant on Shepard in the second game.

Not Jacob.

But seriously, it stood out more for Garrus and Tali, at least for me, because they had more independant personalities in the first game.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Honestly, I like that Garrus and Tali don't have plothooks upon plothooks. I like characters who come along because they're friends with the main character. If one of my friends came by and said "hey, so, want to come save the galaxy?" and I had any reason to believe that they were legitimately saving the galaxy, I'd go with them.

Heck, if someone who was barely my acquaintance needed help saving the lives of thousands of people, and I had any reason to believe they'd legitimately be able to do it, I'd come along.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 mai 2011 - 02:52 .

[AdmiralCheez]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

But seriously, it stood out more for Garrus and Tali, at least for me, because they had more independant personalities in the first game.

Tali spouted codex pages and Garrus agreed with you.

Totes independent, bro.

[AdmiralCheez]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Honestly, I like that Garrus and Tali don't have plothooks upon plothooks. I like characters who come along because they're friends with the main character. If one of my friends came by and said "hey, so, want to come save the galaxy?" and I had any reason to believe that they were legitimately saving the galaxy, I'd go with them.

Heck, if someone who was barely my acquaintance needed help saving the lives of thousands of people, and I had any reason to believe they'd legitimately be able to do it, I'd come along.

Also, this.

EDIT: And I see Saph's b*tch mode has activated...  Sigh.  Debating with him used to be fun.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 12 mai 2011 - 02:53 .

[lovgreno]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Wrex's arc is hamperd mainly by the fact that he is dead in the default ME2.

The optional new Shepard choice in ME2 doesn't have to have anything to do with ME3. They can choose whatever options they want in the start of the last game as there are realy no default Shepards in this story.

BioWare can, will and should write the story they think will sell most without listening to whatever individual fans says about things like default, variables, impossible, confirmed ME3 content, illogical, plotholes, bad writing etc...

So yet again, let's wait and see what the future holds. But to me the things we have heard thus far implies that those dreaded variables are not the big problem some says it is.

[Almostfaceman]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Honestly, I like that Garrus and Tali don't have plothooks upon plothooks. I like characters who come along because they're friends with the main character. If one of my friends came by and said "hey, so, want to come save the galaxy?" and I had any reason to believe that they were legitimately saving the galaxy, I'd go with them.

Heck, if someone who was barely my acquaintance needed help saving the lives of thousands of people, and I had any reason to believe they'd legitimately be able to do it, I'd come along.

Also, this.

EDIT: And I see Saph's b*tch mode has activated...  Sigh.  Debating with him used to be fun.

It's just in the mood to stir up trouble - painfully obvious.

[Seboist]

Garrus was the most irrelevant squadmate in the first one. Recruiting him was optional and he only had a minor battle and sidequest going for him as far as plot relevance goes.

[Reapinger]

They never anticipated Garrus being so popular but I feel they will do him and his personal life justice when we travel to Palaven. As for Tali, we learn a lot about the Quarians and her family, I have everything I want to know about them and her to be honest.

[PrinceLionheart]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

But seriously, it stood out more for Garrus and Tali, at least for me, because they had more independant personalities in the first game.

Tali spouted codex pages and Garrus agreed with you.

Totes independent, bro.

And if you argued with Tali about the geth she actually stood her ground instead of backing down to Shep.

And a lot of convos with Garrus involved giving him viewpoints he had never considered before, not parenting him like you did in the second game.