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[Czacki]

Intended for : BGT with SCS/SCS2. using - along other mods from tweak/fixpack - True Grandmastery and import more gear to BG2.
Rule: No same classes. This means 6x Kensage, despite being probably the strongest powergaming party possible, is a no-no.

Main: Kensai/Mage, dualled at 13. In BG1 part he's mostly an axe thrower, even though those weight a ton and run out quickly. It's rather safe however and the gold isn't a problem in BG1. in BG2 he gets a bit better throwing axes, and once he starts dualing, he's hiding behind others until he unlocks his skills. Once he does.. well, I think nobody needs a Kensage description, as it's (imho) the most powerful character of the game. Final weapons are Axe of the Unyielding +5 and Crom Faeyr. I did the math and (this applies to game with true grandmastery installed) it's much better damage wise than fooling around with a belm+2 - not only it comes with extra feats such as better thac0 due to 25str or golemslaying, but also, while having bigger DPS overall, is more reliable since attacks from belm will be ineffective against some enemies in ToB, effectively wasting 1APR or 2APR if improved haste was cast. With true granmastery it peaks at 9/2 APR so I merely miss 1/2 APR.

2nd: Kensai/Thief. I like those because he can get many spell resistance items and end up with 100% SR while retaining strong damage. (combining Cloak of Balduran from tweak component, Human Flesh +5, The Answerer, Ring of Gaax and that amulet that gives 15% SR, you're already near 100%). Can lay those wicked spiketraps, backstab and use assassination to get rid of bosses quickly. Also gets rid of traps and locks. Dualled at 13. The only sad point is that due to his specialization, he can't throw his weapons and he's pretty much useless during BG1. In BG2 however he's useful with short bow and quickly regains levels due to low requirements of thief.
Weapons: Foebane+5/Angurvadal+5. Yeah I know you can't backstab with Foebane, but Foebane is awesome as main weapon and when I want to backstab/Assassinate, I just switch to secondary weapon. Also uses The Answerer if he wants to have sick magic resistance. Idk if this is possible, never tried, but UAI should allow him to take two Holy symbols (those that clerics get at 25th level) and gain +2 str, ending with 24, but that's not sure, never tested.

3rd: Ranger/Cleric. This is the guy that makes BG1 easier since he goes around with best longbow I can find. Later on (at 13) duals to Cleric. Eventually grabs a Flail of Ages +5 paired with something (may be even that funny-looking Club of Detonation +5, such an underrated weapon)  and Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization to become a proficient killer. Gets through stoneskins, is tough as heck, turns undead, has that AMAZING nature's beauty to blind people and turn them useless, and has insect spells to get rid of mage groups. On top of that he heals stuff and casts chaotic commands. Great utility char. Can hide in shadows and pop up right next to enemy mage, interrupting him through his stoneskins via elemental damage of FoA if dispel isn't availabe at the time.

4th: Inquisitor. THE tank of BG1. Get him Ankheg Mail +1 from Nashkel, Boots of Avoidance and Belt of (+3 AC against piercing, forgot the name lol), maybe also a shield, and voila: they can shoot him all day and they nearly never hit. Great against those bandit hordes in BG1. Later on picks stuff like Carsomyr and (in ToB) Ravager+6 for non magical foes, kicking a lot of butt with greater WW. Has that awesome dispel magic that I decided not to tweak via SCS components because that makes inquisitor class worthless (compared to Fighter/Mages) and 0 cast time True Sight that's a blessing in SCS where EVERY mage under the sun has sequencers/triggers with Illusion spells ready.  Also a competent BG1 Archer if someone else can be used as decoy for melee creatures like Ghasts and Carrion Crawlers.

5th: Sorcerer. Some people say that solo classes like this one without dualling are pointless, but I disagree; the robe of Vecna NEEDS a guy like this to shine. He is basically the artillery; In BG1, he's another ranged damage dealer with a sling until he picks some good spells. In BG2, He's "carrying" the game when both Kensais and the Ranger are in midst of dualclassing, together with Inquisitor and my final party member; Weapon: Staff of Magi, obviously. For a second I wondered whether Edwin (yup) wouldn't be actually a BETTER choice for a powergamer, since he can get eight level9 spells compared to Sorcerer's six, but heck, sorcerer's no-memorization is quite a sweat deal, and with project cheese/spell trap abuse/wishresting, max spells per day isn't really THAT important. The ability to have the desired spell instantly without scroll search is quite amazing in BG1, too, where you desperately need Haste for overall damage, Web for SCS-tweaked bandit camp (one of the hardest places ever in a BG game, since you have like 30 NPCs activating at the same time, including tough guys like Taugosz/all those guys from the tent and like 20 accurate and tough bandit archers with poisoned arrows... OUCH! without web it's practically impossible.) and also Spirit Armor for your Kensais to allow them to utilize their melee prowess without getting hit every three seconds.

6th: Assassin/Mage. A perfect finisher for a perfect team; some may wonder why not a Berserker/Cleric or so, but let me tell you this: Mislead + 7x backstab + Tenser's + Improved Haste. This makes him extremely accurate, and with belm+kundane he can do up to 8 attacks per round. or, if you prefer, use Celestial fury or Hindo's doom against those that laugh at +2 weapons. Con: duals at 21, so yeah, his magnificent powers will only activate in very late ToB. But that's actually good, because... the mislead trick is madly powerful. Getting it too fast would spoil the game. Even if this guy isn't using this trick, he's still a fairly competent mage (up to level 24) which can throw Horrid Wiltings, Time Stops and Dragon Breaths around. Also, he's extremely useful in BG1 where you need a thief from the start (he is one, even though he sort of sucks early with 1/2 thief points, but hell, he's better than no thief at all until kensai/thief gets online..) and in BG2, he easily counters mages paired with Inquisitor's dispel: after dispel, his poison affects the target and pretty much screws up their casting. Not to mention he has his uber backstab to get rid of unprotected mages when scouting.

There. This party, once it's past the dualclassing phase, can do so much! Pretty much every member, except K/T can summon Celestials/Elementals, so it can also resort to cheesy tactics like mass hasted planetars/devas/elemental princes to do their dirty work WITHOUT resorting to utter cheese like summoning multiple planetars via project image (which I think is fixed in one of the tweak/fix mods anyway). Three powerful mages means super strong AoE (including multiple horrid wiltings and/or chain contingencies with "x3 horridwilting on enemy sighted") and ofc everyone can use project cheese and cheesulacrum to its best utility. On physical side, everybody uses the strongest weapons the game can provide you with and has either 9/2 or 10 APR on demand, plus having amazing strength (Kensage 25str, Kenthief 24, Ranger/cleric 25 on demand with draw upon holy might, Inquisitor 22, assassin/mage 20). Also, everybody is protected from magic in some way, either by access to spells like Spelltrap/Shield of Archons, or by magic resistance coming from items for non-casting guys. The downside is that nobody can utilize power attack well, but heck, who needs power attack if you can get Assassin/Thief to throw consecutive 120dam backstabs eight times per round... times many, many rounds, since neither tenser, nor imp.haste run out fast on high mage levels. It has good healing powers, a competent cleric who can utilize "physical" spells like harm/righteous magic well due to good thac0/APR, many ways to deal with spellcasters (multiple breach spells, inquisitor's dispel, carsomyr, insect plague, magic immunity, cloak of cheese... etc) and a powerful anti-boss mechanism of greater malison + mass death spells. If things go drastically wrong, you have - eventually - THREE characters that can stop time and unleash HELL on the helpless foes via different means.

I can't think of many improvements. Sure, I don't have THAT many clerical spells at my disposal, but they are barely necessary with so much protection. Besides, I can always summon celestials should I be in dire need of getting more of clerical spells. I also think that this party utilizes ALL of the game's best weapons and items well.

Potentially, I -could- remove some of the party members so that I keep the necessary and gain faster level gaining, and/or replace them, so I'm open to suggestions.

Core:
Kensage (well he's PC)
Ranger/Cleric (heal and cheesy druidic spells)
Assassin/Mage (I just love the mislead trick too much, and someone has to be the thief in BG1).

Optional but cool:
Kenthief (Assassination, specialized high magic resistance, traps - but not irreplacable)
Inquisitor (His dispels are powerful but having 2-3 guys breaching AND insect plague is usually enough.. I like Carsomyr and Ravager+6 tho and 2h weapons kinda fit Paladins...)
Sorcerer (might be a little redundant with so much power around, but heck, power + more power = a lot more power... still wondering about getting Edwin, tho )

Rejected:
-Monk - Everything he has, Kenthief can achieve via gear or sorc's spells cast on him. However, Kenthief also has stealth, assassination, backstab and traps, and monk has nothing.
-Berserker/Cleric - good build with anti-imprisonment method in rage, however, I'm pretty much out of space. He could replace Inquisitor if I wanted not to use the dispel magic, however what annoys me here is that I miss a potent 2h fighter and B/C cannot become one because he's limited to blunt weapons. I'm also out of potentially awesome weapons to equip him, the remaining blunts aren't as impressive.
-Wild Mage - while fun, this guy is too unpredictable, and Edwin is a more stable method of getting more high level spells per rest.
-Barbarian - What I thought about here is that innate 20% physical resist + the flail from special merchants in SoA that gives another 20% + hardiness = 80% physical resistance, however besides toughness he doesn't really offer anything special so he's inferior to both Inquisitor and Kenthief.
-Bard (or kit) - could be potentially useful with images singing bardsong, but I'm seeing that as a bit "too" cheesy.
-Archer -With haste and boots of haste, party members move so fast that his range attack advantage is barely noticeable. With imported items he can still use Eagle bow to utilize strength bonus and deal about 30 damage per arrow on his high levels,  but this is just a +2 weapon so it won't be very useful against some foes in ToB, and besides, he has pretty much *just* the damage and nothing else, compared to other chars that have strong spells and skills at their sleeve.


Any suggestions?

[Moganza]

Well it certainly sounds like your party will kick some serious ass. I havent tried any of the difficulty mods so I'm hoping it ups the difficulty quite a lot or else you're going to be overpowered. Or rather you'll both be overpowered

Monk can be a pretty good tank in later days because of his AC and magic resistance.
I don't know why people don't think much of Wild Mages. I think they're invincible tbh especially in later game where there is less risk. He can recall the same spells and cast it multiple time. This seems like an amazing thing to have and I don't understand how any other mage class can beat this.

[Czacki]

Hey:) To get maximum use of Wild Mage, one has to rely on the bug that makes chaos shields cast from sequencer stack. Otherwise, there's a roll that pretty much might mean the spell does nothing at all (or does some random effect). With the bug you can indeed get 100 every time, meaning reckless dweomer turns into additional lvl9 page (and with the ring imported from BG1, aka ring of wizardry, you have 12 casts of reckless dweomer..

So it's powerful, but less of an instant effect, as you need to rely on the spell sequencers first in order to get what you want, and it's most likely an exploit similar to mutlipling planetars via project image.

Not sure if that's exactly what I want to do, will give it a think, tho Since technically, using ranger/cleric's druid spells above level 3, I'm utilizing a bug of the engine, so I'm not exactly exploit-free in my party

edit: Did some testing with Wild Mage and it was fairly positive. Not sure if triple chaos shield is exactly a bug or not, but it surely helps, and having 18 level 9 spells is just too fun to pass. I might actually give it a try instead of sorcerer. Thanks for the tip!

edit2: oh wait, there are two rings of wizardry in BG1... wonder if they both get imported with the mod. Oh well, quite lol that is, 24 reckless dweomers/day =

edit3: fortunately, only one of them is imported. 24 reckless dweomers per day would be a "bit" lol.

Modifié par Czacki, 12 mai 2011 - 04:57 .

[Moganza]

Lol nice to bring on another supporter for the Wild Mage. Personally I've only played with a Wild Mage in TOB and i didnt once get a spell failure. i cant say the same about the rest of the game.

You can also consider Blades. They are good fun and are extremely powerful. To spice it up i think you should use more custom kits because although most dual classes are the most powerful custom kits adds a little flavour to the game and you'll end up using new strategies.

And if you go with Inquisitor i suggest you watch out or else you may dispel your own teams magic seeing as you have 4 spell casters and 3 of which you're going to probably send in close range.

[Czacki]

after extensive testing I must admit that Wild Mage makes sorcerer look like weak, little, useless kobold. Wild mage not only has ALL the spells at his disposal via reckless dweomer, but also infinite spells because of limited wish that constantly restores the same dweomers that are used to cast it... perpertuum mobile. If you use that mod from BGTTweak to import more goodies from BG1, you can take a ring of wizardry for double level 1 spells, making it easier to manage spells.

---

However, I noticed that there's a massive power problem with this party, I mean sure it's insane, but at end of ToB. And that's not really that good. My new uberparty is much better throughout entire game and also easier to manage:

1. F/M/T - combines K/M, K/T and Assassin/Mage roles: damage dealing. He can get many APRs with Staff of Ram+6, and thanks to mislead, all of those will be turned into x5 backstabs. This makes other sources of DPS unnecessary since average backstab from staff of ram on this kind of char is above 150 damage.
2. Wild Mage - takes the role of magical slayer. In any bigger battle, he stops time and spams bajillion spells. Not just that but he also restores them periodically and also is capable of throwing 100% reliable wishrest any time.

eventually:

3. Ranger/Cleric for turn undead/nature's beauty but it's hardly necessary with the kind of damage the chars above have when they combine their abilities. Insect plague can be carried out by planetar and with SCS celestials have fast uninterruptable magic which turns out to be awesome.

two/three party members = peaks MUCH faster, also doesn't have to go through that useless dual classing disable period.

[Dante2377]

In your full party, I'd dual the R/C much earlier, say level 7 instead of 13, to get access to spells earlier and more plentiful in TOB. With all your other melee power, you won't really miss the extra half attack.

I've always found Berserker -> Mage a bit higher up on the power curve than Kensai -> Mage. While the Kensai/Mage eliminates the negatives (e.g. the negative of not wearing armor is meaningless with dualing to a mage), the positive additions of the 3-4 Berserker Rages per day far outweigh the extra Kensai damage output - the Rages mean fewer defensive spells need to be memorized across all the characters (since Rage will defend against things that you'd need to cast more Chaotic Commands and Spell Immunities etc), allowing for more Iron Skins and other offensive mage spells. This will make more of a difference in the more difficult battles involving enemy wizards than a few extra pluses for hit/damage.

[Czacki]

Hey.

Regarding R/C - the free action of FoA+5 is already more of a curse then a blessing. if dualled at 9,he peaks at 3 APR - when everyone else can get 9 or 10 APR. Thus I'm beginning to think about this class... whether it's really even that useful. Sure, undead turn is great, but for such a big party it would be useless most of the time because of low levels throught the parts where Undead are actually annoying. Clerical spells mostly are meh. with SCS, planetars are much better for casting insect plague since they have 0 cast time (so they might manage to pull it off before mages throw in their spell triggers with annoying invisibility). It's pretty much about having nature's beauty, but nature's beauty is no longer that great in ToB as it was in SoA (in SCS) and can be mimicked by Power Word Blind if necessary.

I'm actually thinking about dumping R/C from my reduced party in favor of Fighter/Mage.


Regarding B/M - you might be right. The damage bonus of kensage is equal to damage bonus Berserker/Mage gets when you count gloves of weapon expertise (+2 dam) and berserker rage (+2 dam) anyway. You miss +1 thac0 but it's not a big deal when you count +7 thac0 from 25 STR. If I'd dump R/C in my smaller party in favor for fighter/mage, berserker/mage would be really welcome, not to mention being much more playable in BG1.

In my smaller party I'd consider third member over faster exp growth mainly because of extra breaches and true sights that are extremely useful in SCS with all those triggers and contingencies mages have.

Modifié par Czacki, 13 mai 2011 - 07:11 .

[AnonymousHero]

Nobody says you have to upgrade the FoA... It's pretty formidable even as FoA+4 -- though not quite as ridiculously powerful.

B->M can also get +1/2 APR from a certain piece of equipment which K->M are not allowed to wear. If you're already hitting 9-10 APR with 2-weapon style that may not matter that much, but if you're using 2H weapons it's a huge deal.

[Dante2377]

I've always found chaotic commands to be quite useful.

Also, i rarely ever take the FOA beyond +4 specifically so you can use Improved Haste. Being able to cast Iron Skins means you can take fewer Hardiness HLA and more GWW to get 10 APR.

in a 3-person party, with 2 members being Wild Mage and F/M/T, it almost doesn't matter what the third member is, but anything part mage will do fine.

[Czacki]

Now I just have to decide whether to keep the Inquisitor or dump him.

Pro: Fast true sight, some mages in SCS have chain contingency that activates on dispel illusion, so two of those cast in quick succession are necessary to reveal the mage and allow you to cast something that will prevent him from stopping time (this is best done with a planetar and insect plague. Kudos to SCS creators for making those plagued casters use 1 casttime spells and sequencers instead of doing nothing... )
- Dispel magic, albeit it's really annoying to be forced to carefully aim this or strip down your own protections.
- GWW with Ravager+6 is fun.
- VERY useful in BG1 with SCS! Because breaches and stuff are level 5 and pretty much impossible to get, and SCS mages are extreemely unforgiving with their stoneskin/mirror image spam, without inquisitor it's actually very annoying.

Cons
- drains XP (delays HLAs) - in 3 person party it's all about getting powerful asap.
- not really that useful outside of rare anti-invis mage killing
- Carsomyr is pretty useless in SCS2 ToB since every mage under the sun has contingency/trigger protection from magic weapons... which requires dispel, but carsomyr's dispel won't hit until the protection is gone, kind of beating the purpose.
- Dispel magic removes insect plague, so either no Planetar anti-magic action or no dispel.

atm I'm rather inclined not to take him, however I'm not sure - his dispel is pretty powerful.

Current "small " party:

F/M/T
Berserker/Mage
Wild Mage

edit: Did more testing and Inquisitor actually fares really well in SCS2, the extra dispel/true sight often acts like a trump card... heck, I'm not sure again.

Modifié par Czacki, 13 mai 2011 - 09:17 .

[Moganza]

if you want to have a lot of fun pick these classes. Assassin, Blade, Monk, Wild Mage, Sorcerer, Inquisitor. You can dual the Assassin or the Wild Mage if you like. This is not the most powerful party but you'll certainly have a lot of fun

[Czacki]

Wild mages cannot be dualed:)

I think I'd go for the three above, eventually plus Ranger/Cleric because turn undead on high level instakills undead and even liches and in 4 person party from BG1 it's easy to have level advantage so turn undead is at its best. No real need for Inquisitor, I guess

[Grond0]

Using vanilla BG2 it is possible to dual from a wild mage (or any other kit), but not to it. However, BG1 did allow dualling to a specialist mage, and a specialist multi-class is in the vanilla game (Jan), so it's always seemed odd to me that this is not allowed - it's a restriction of the transition mechanism rather than the game engine itself. I would be happy to 'cheat' by dualling to a kit, so long as the original class was not also a kit.

[Czacki]

isn't Jan a gnome? Gnomes are automatically ilusionists, whether they are normal or multiclass:) hence a fighter/mage m/c should always consider picking gnome for +1 spells/level and a nice bonus to save vs. spells.

Modifié par Czacki, 16 mai 2011 - 01:05 .

[Moganza]

Yeah sorry i don't know why i said you could dual Wild Mage when i already know you can't. I was probably thinking of dualing an assassin and momentarily assumed you could do the same with Wild Mage. And i meant dual from not dual too

Hey guys just out of curiosity how hard is SCS1 and 2. Is it possible for a Kensage and an Undead Hunter to make it alone? Thanks

[Czacki]

SCS1/2 with all the components installed - especially spell tweaks - is extremely hard to regular (non-custom that is) party. I don't touch the spell tweaks myself because I'm not of a fan of immortal mages that seem to resist any and all attempts of dispeling their protections (installing all the spell tweaks the mod proposes it's pretty much like that).

When you however install mostly the AI enhancements, the game is much less cheesy, you can't just get by with a tank character + 5x dps chars because AI will ignore targets that are immune to its attack after a short while and go after other people or target them outright. This means you are actually best with small parties that will counter-balance the fact that all your party members are equal targets in AI's eyes.

Most of the mages in SCS/SCS2 will also cast really well thought sequencers and contingencies, upping the game's difficulty a bit.

Kensage and Undead hunter alone would be probably owned a lot, and it would take a bunch of power word: reload to make it through some of the fights, not to mention they would NEVER beat Bandit Camp in SCS. Without web (or resorting to extremely cheesy hit and run aka enter location, fire some arrows, leave location, heal, return) it's not doable at all. Also the amount of contingencies and triggers (and regular spells cast at time stop) begs for at least 2-3 breach/truesight capable chars.

Modifié par Czacki, 16 mai 2011 - 03:14 .

[AnonymousHero]

EDIT: Disclaimer: I don't actually play with ALL the SCS bits, so YMMV. If you have e.g. Smarter Mages, I'm pretty sure the mage will just cast Invisibility and wait you to death since you have no way to detect him.

I'm pretty sure a Kensai could clear the bandit camp without resorting to cheese. Put on boots of avoidance, the belt of piercing (not sure if it actually works), a ring of protection, chug a Potion of Defense/Invulnerability and you'll have excellent AC. If you add in an Ioun Stone (added by G3 BG2 Tweak Pack) and you'll be reasonably protected from criticals too.

(Mages could be an issue, but you can use a potion of Magic Protection or whatever they're called... the ones that means you make every save automatically.)

You will probably need a few more potions (esp. healing, regen., perhaps speed), but nothing too extravagant.

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 16 mai 2011 - 05:11 .

[Czacki]

Don't forget that ALL the enemies (including the elite mercenary in full plate mail and those from the main building incl. mage) are activated in SCS instantaneously someone sees you - and yes, simultaneously as well. So you'll have to face them AND about 30-40 regular bandit/hobgoblin archers. Without web, there's no real way to do this rather than cheese. I don't recall any Ioun Stones in BG1, may be wrong tho. Even if you're protected against double damage from critical hit, you're not protected against the autohit. So even if they have just 5% chance of hitting you, it gets a lot more ugly when you count 2 attacks per round from like 10-20 guys shooting at the same time, with poisoned arrows.

It's doable but extremely hard/annoying and highly luck dependent. You won't do this without countless reloads for a lucky roll, whereas a mage setting 2-3 webs can safely paralyze most of ordinary bandits (correct positioning required) so you can pick them from distance.

This is of course intended for people playing BGT or Tutu. Things get a bit easier if you wish to skip the BG1 part.

Modifié par Czacki, 16 mai 2011 - 05:17 .

[Grond0]

Moganza wrote...

Yeah sorry i don't know why i said you could dual Wild Mage when i already know you can't. I was probably thinking of dualing an assassin and momentarily assumed you could do the same with Wild Mage. And i meant dual from not dual too

I thought you were intending this.  I've only done it as a test, but still have it in mind for a future game.  As wild mage is a kit it would be no more difficult to dual to this than any other specialist mage - easy enough to do in shadow keeper, though I dare say there are more elegant methods.

[Czacki]

WM should be standalone class imho, not a kit.

Modifié par Czacki, 16 mai 2011 - 07:04 .

[Grond0]

Czacki wrote...

Don't forget that ALL the enemies (including the elite mercenary in full plate mail and those from the main building incl. mage) are activated in SCS instantaneously someone sees you - and yes, simultaneously as well. So you'll have to face them AND about 30-40 regular bandit/hobgoblin archers. Without web, there's no real way to do this rather than cheese. I don't recall any Ioun Stones in BG1, may be wrong tho. Even if you're protected against double damage from critical hit, you're not protected against the autohit. So even if they have just 5% chance of hitting you, it gets a lot more ugly when you count 2 attacks per round from like 10-20 guys shooting at the same time, with poisoned arrows.

It's doable but extremely hard/annoying and highly luck dependent. You won't do this without countless reloads for a lucky roll, whereas a mage setting 2-3 webs can safely paralyze most of ordinary bandits (correct positioning required) so you can pick them from distance.

The enemies from the tent won't necessarily join in the attack - I think it depends how close to them you are when you are recognised as an enemy.  As far as the others go I've recently soloed the bandit camp twice.  With more characters I would certainly recommend web as the quickest and easiest method, but found I could not hand out damage quickly enough to make this a feasible strategy with just my PC.  Instead I fell back on the old standby of running round the map, pausing regularly momentarily to shoot.  As some of the bandits are likely to have potions of speed you could either use one yourself or target those bandits in melee once they've separated from others.

Of course as a kensai this strategy would be a lot easier with a magic throwing weapon, but I think it would be possible to do it without returning to base if you just crammed your backpack full of throwing daggers (or disabled stack size limits).  I have soloed a kensai through BG1 without using magic weapons and it's certainly possible, though a bit tedious, to use throwing axes / daggers on almost all enemies - even under SCS.  I think you probably would need some magic equipment though if you want to do this as a no-reload - a ring of free action and green amulet between them will deal with enough problems to give you a good chance.

[Grond0]

Czacki wrote...

WM should be standalone class imho, not a kit.

I  have some sympathy with this - you can easily argue that wild mage should be treated as a class (like a sorceror) rather than just a kit, even though this is not the way it's implemented in the game.  As I've never actually played with one I don't have first hand experience of how unbalancing treating them as a kit is.

However, as a more general point I don't see the logic of saying that dualling from a kit is fine, but not allowing dualling to a kit - you (and nearly everyone else) don't seem to have a problem with going for a berserker - mage or kensai - mage.  As the restriction is just an interface issue my own test is - would I be happy to mod an NPC (using level 1 NPCs) to the proposed class.  If the answer is yes, then I would also see this as reasonable for a PC.

[AnonymousHero]

Czacki wrote...

Don't forget that ALL the enemies (including the elite mercenary in full plate mail and those from the main building incl. mage) are activated in SCS instantaneously someone sees you - and yes, simultaneously as well.

I think this was actually unintented behavior that was fixed in one of the more recent versions of SCS. In v19, almost everybody (but not quite) on the exterior map joins in, so the guys in the tent don't join in.

The bandits all seem to have ordinary arrows, btw. (Hakt does have poisonous arrows, but then he always did, even in vanilla.)

I'm not saying it'll be easy, but it might be possible .

[Czacki]

If the tent-npcs-joining-battle was unintended and is now fixed, it's definitively MUCH more doable now.  I got poisoned many times by ordinary bandits/chills so I'm not exactly sure if only tent NPCs can poison, I'm pretty sure every bandit (or hobgoblin) can - or the majority, at least.

However, as a more general point I don't see the logic of saying that dualling from a kit is fine, but not allowing dualling to a kit - you (and nearly everyone else) don't seem to have a problem with going for a berserker - mage or kensai - mage.  As the restriction is just an interface issue my own test is - would I be happy to mod an NPC (using level 1 NPCs) to the proposed class.  If the answer is yes, then I would also see this as reasonable for a PC.

Well I agree that usually there's little sense in kit dual restriction, such as stalker or archer prevented going to cleric (club of detonation wielding stalker/cleric kicks butt, actually...), but I think that for some reason they didn't quite implement Wild Mage like they wanted and the restriction is an effect of this. Much like there was no reason for them to give druids such a ridiculous progression (1,5 million exp -> 3 million exp levelup difference = lol) because of some obscure reason (I read once why but forgot already )

As for Wild Mage's power - wild surge means the wild mage can cast level 9 spells without actually having slots for them. Meaning you could dual him at relatively low level and still enjoy 6 level 9 spells per day. I don't think it's that awesome, though. Wild Mage's power on his own is amazing, simply because his spells never run out (thanks to limited wish) and because he can simply cast whatever he wants, without memorization (but unlike sorcerer he's NOT limited to five spells per level). This alone makes him imho the best arcane class. There's a 20% failure chance on his max level but this is really a tiny price to pay and you can still memorize spells in "regular" slots for those battles where you don't want to tinker with wild surge and a 20% chance of failure (it gets reduced to more manageable 5% instead).

Wild mage obviously isn't a class for no-reloads or hardcore, since a critical fail in his surges may cost him the battle, so despite his potential, sorceror is still better for no-reload challenges.

Modifié par Czacki, 16 mai 2011 - 09:18 .

[Grond0]

Czacki wrote...
Well I agree that usually there's little sense in kit dual restriction, such as stalker or archer prevented going to cleric (club of detonation wielding stalker/cleric kicks butt, actually...), but I think that for some reason they didn't quite implement Wild Mage like they wanted and the restriction is an effect of this.

The game restriction on wild mages is exactly the same as on all other specialist mage types - any of which can be overcome by shadow keeper.

Much like there was no reason for them to give druids such a ridiculous progression (1,5 million exp -> 3 million exp levelup difference = lol) because of some obscure reason (I read once why but forgot already )

This was a consequence of 2nd edition D&D rules that there should only be one Grand Druid at 14th level and therefore it was a big step to get there.  Of course with the introduction of ToB that restriction ceased to make any sense.

As for Wild Mage's power - wild surge means the wild mage can cast level 9 spells without actually having slots for them. Meaning you could dual him at relatively low level and still enjoy 6 level 9 spells per day. I don't think it's that awesome, though. Wild Mage's power on his own is amazing, simply because his spells never run out (thanks to limited wish) and because he can simply cast whatever he wants, without memorization (but unlike sorcerer he's NOT limited to five spells per level). This alone makes him imho the best arcane class. There's a 20% failure chance on his max level but this is really a tiny price to pay and you can still memorize spells in "regular" slots for those battles where you don't want to tinker with wild surge and a 20% chance of failure (it gets reduced to more manageable 5% instead).

Wild mage obviously isn't a class for no-reloads or hardcore, since a critical fail in his surges may cost him the battle, so despite his potential, sorceror is still better for no-reload challenges.

I agree about the potential power of wild mages.  However, as I almost always play no-reload, the drawbacks are very considerable.  I was particularly disappointed in testing the class that the spell failure check on chaos shield spells cast through a sequencer comes when the sequencer is used rather than when the original spell is put into the sequencer, i.e. even though the sequencer is cast as an ability the spells within it still suffer a spell failure check.  This means that the real failure chance for Nahal's Reckless Dweomer is rather higher than it would appear and reliance on NRD is, indeed, reckless (at least for no-reload games).

Modifié par Grond0, 16 mai 2011 - 10:08 .