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[lummoxybez]

I'm currently at the start of a new BG2/ToB campaign and have imported my Pally from BG1.
As my only other playthroughs have involved me playing a mage of some sort, I'm at a loss as who to choose to provide magical backup.
I intend my party to consist of the following :
 Aelfric - Human Paladin (PC)
 Jaheira
 Viconia
 Yoshimo (to be replaced by Imoen)
 Mazzy
So until Imoen rejoins I'll be without a decent arcane spellcaster.That will be quite a long time as I intend to do as many of the side-quests as possible.
My first thought was to take Aerie, but she was in my last party and I found her to be incredibly annoying, so want to avoid her if possible.
(I plan to either change Viconia's alignment through RP or with the belt of alignment changing, so she will fit into my good party.)
Any thoughts on which NPC mage would fit best into this particular party?

[morbidest2]

As a paladin your reputation will probably head toward 19 in a big hurry, so Edwin is not a good long term choice, just as it will be difficult to hang on to Viconia. I would use Nalia and after Imoen is back, you will have two strong mages going into ToB where magic beats muscle. And of course there are mods, but "the gurls" (N., I., Jaheira and Mazzy) are a pretty strong group. Perhaps a bigger issue is using Annoyingman instead of Vicky.

[lummoxybez]

Cool.
There's no way I'm using Annoyingman though.

In BG1, Vicky wanders off to make secret sacrifices to Shar every now and then. Coincidentally, these wicked murders usually happen when my rep hits 18.
I might stick to that method in BG2. Either that or use the aforementioned alignment-changing belt.

[Charlestonian Knight Templar]

As a Paladin, depending on how much you want to really want to role play a Paladin, your mindset is toward surrounding yourself with other likeminded "LG" party members.

That said, Aerie has to be considered first since she's LG but since you've "been there, done that," I understand why you don't wanna go there again . Everytime that music starts I want hit her with Carsomyr myself.

After LG the next most "acceptable" alignments to a Paladin are NG, LN. Nalia is Chaotic which is "twice removed" from Lawful but she IS Good so a Paladin could probably tolerate her as long as she tended more toward neutral. A Paladin would see her desire to help the "downtrodden" as a virtue but would be uncomfortable with her working against "polite societies norms" to do so.

Nalia's a fine mage and really better than Aerie since she is only tracking as a Mage whereas Aerie splits her experience between Cleric/Mage.

As an aside, I often end up with "Annoying Man" (never heard that but, oh, so true) AND Aerie in my party because of their skill sets/alignments. That'll make even a Paladin consider Harikiri. LOL

[ussnorway]

Your pally can romance Vicky... changes her evil ways. Nalia is redundent with Imoen and Edwin is too evil for a pally.

I vote Jan in that group. Your party would then have a REAL thief as well as a solid range fighter (his special crossbow ammo is a powerful stun).


What role will Jaheira play?

Modifié par ussnorway, 13 mai 2011 - 01:40 .

[HoonDing]

I don't think Imoen makes Nalia redundant. Nalia's the better mage. I would go for Nalia + Jan, and make Imoen leave the group after getting out of Spellhold.

I also think any paladin should leave Viconia to burn at the stake.

[Incantatar]

virumor wrote...

I also think any paladin should leave Viconia to burn at the stake.

If Drizzt was to be killed by fanatics your Paladin also walks by? If not he shouldn't with Viconia either. For all we know they only want to kill her because of her appearence. Someone being seemingly evil doesn't equal to death sentence for LG characters.

[morbidest2]

From a role playing standpoint, doesn't it depend on what type of paladin we're talking about? An inquisitor, like Keldorn, would probably be happy to bring more wood for the fire, while a cavalier would not only rescue her, but would agree with Minsc and insist that she be added to the party.

[Charlestonian Knight Templar]

Interesting feedback but I tend to agree with Virumor.

One issue though (atleast from the outset) unless one casts a know alignment or detect evil, then even as a Paladin you wouldn't know they were evil - until they opened their mouths or started acting shadily.

Drow are well known as evil in Faerun and any Paladin would know that. Drizzt is a very unique case and, from my standpoint, shows himself to be an exception when you meet him in BGI. In addition, his reputation seems to proceed him.

I'm actually not sure Morb if "Paladin type" changes the equation. Hmm. I see your point about a Cavalier but I'm not sure he'd save her. Youa re correct though, that the conflict between Minsc and Keldorn always perplexes my PC.

[HoonDing]

Drizzt already has a reputation of being a good Drow in BG2, and is recognized as such by the party as well.

Paladins of Torm (Keldorn) are the most fanatic and are dedicated to actively opposing all evil they come up against.

[ussnorway]

IMO burning people at a stake without giving them a trial first is evil... Unlawful, at the very least.

[Ishad Nha]

If Viconia makes blood sacrifices she should be brought to justice.
I have Nalia and I used the Level 1 NPCs mod to turn Aerie into a single class Sorceror. Music between Jahiera and Aerie is annoying but the two mage women make for very good spellcasting capacity.

[Czacki]

Role playing wise, know allignment would indeed solve the case and Paladin wouldn't object burning her on the stake, probably (or perhaps he'd prefer killing her quickly over torturing her with fire, who knows)

Paladin is about destroying evil, Viconia is evil... do the math

[polytope]

A paladin isn't supposed to kill (or abet the killing of) every evil person s/he meets - cast detect evil in the streets of trademeet and you'll find evil merchants, but they're minding their own business so there's no justification to attack them: Paladins are supposed to kill only in defense of innocent life.

Also, whilst a paladin probably wouldn't intefere with a lawful execution, a lynch mob is another matter.

[morbidest2]

ussnorway wrote...

IMO burning people at a stake without giving them a trial first is evil... Unlawful, at the very least.

But the difference between a paladin and a knight  is that a paladin is always sure that he is divinely inspired and is always right. Even more so than a member of the Flaming Fists: "I am da Law"  

Keldorn's script was very well written to show how that can lead to fanaticism.

[lummoxybez]

I have to agree with ussnorway and polytope in that I don't think Vicky should be left to burn. I also don't believe alignments should be treated as being as clear cut as a lot of people view them.

In RL, I consider myself to be a relatively good person, and I also respect the laws society asks us to live by (I don't even speed when driving), and yet there's no way on Earth I would walk past a lynch mob intent on burning say, a mass-murderer or paedophile. I'd just have to step in, even if a fight resulted. Everyone deserves justice, which is the way I RPd my Paladin when he encountered Vicky way back in BG1.

The fact that she needs to go off and do her 'blood-sacrifice' thing is just my little conceit and a way to keep an awesome NPC in my otherwsie good party. I just imagine that she does it in secret so there is no way the rest of the gang would know. The resultant drop in Rep is because we have a Drow with us we all assume.

[Czacki]

D&D isn't real life. Alignments oversimplify things to the point where moral dilemmas are next-to-absent. Evil beings - assuming you're good and killing stuff anyway - should be dead. Alignments are a pretty weak concept anyway because people cannot be summarized by a label like that, but let's skip this in this discussion.

In D&D, creatures of evil alignment are just evil and the world is better without them. Hence, killing Viconia (assuming burning her is unnecessarily tormenting) would be a reasonable move for every LG Paladin character. This is well portrayed by the behavior of Keldorn when forced in a party with Viconia - if no power word: reloads are abused he will kill her eventually). Allignment change in ToB was just a move by Bioware to appease her fanboys so that she no longer does stand out.

As for "why doesn't Paladin kill evil merchants after casting know alignment" - well, those are humans, most likely protected by laws and guards. Paladins are lawful and obey laws, so nope, he won't kill a guy unless in self defense if there's a law that specifically says do not murder the civilians.

I'm also pretty sure that if Viconia was non-romancable and given an ugly appearance, the amount of people burning her would drastically increase <_<

Modifié par Czacki, 15 mai 2011 - 11:42 .

[lummoxybez]

I see what you're saying, but the very fact that Vicky is redeemable in ToB shows that alignments aren't just black & white. Villains can repent and become good again.

I always see Keldorn as an idiot fanatic, and in no way representative of the way a Paladin should be played. If any of my players in P&P RPGs played a Pally that way they would pretty soon become fallen Paladins.
Also see Miko Miyazaki in the early 'Order of the Stick' episodes. (I know it's just a cartoon, but BG is just a game, so the analogy stands.) She was a Paladin trying to do good, but would go so far as kill anyone who showed as evil using her detect power. To my mind, people are inherently selfish, a trait that favours self-centered behaviour, and if the circumstances are right, result in 'evil' actions being performed. Miko's 'Detect Evil' power should probably highlight more people than she should expect.

Philosophy aside though, I agree with your first point Czacki, that alignments are a weak concept. I always use them as a rough moral guideline. I think players who role-play the LG or CE stereotypes as expected are showing themeselves to be poor role-players. I expect a lot more as a DM, so I like to think I'm RPing my Pally in a good way as he is constantly trying to find the good in people, including a wicked Drow Cleric.

[Czacki]

That's an interesting way to use the flawed alignment system, lummoxybez. With such a variation, it makes sense.

If we however try to treat alignments as more substantial than just guidelines, I think Lawful Good characters are exactly meant to look like Keldorn: follow their laws, the rules they believe in to the extreme, and thus, destroy whatever evil they notice without much hesitation if the laws allow/encourage that.

As far as I understand, there was definitively no law against killing Drow, and it was pretty much encouraged. Unless I'm grossly mistaken, the villagers being able to burn a Drow in the middle of the street in a town full of guards and laws (forcefully applied - see Cowled Wizards) pretty much means it was considered a natural, maybe even good deed to kill a drow, in such a way killing a vampire or a kobold is considered. I don't think a Paladin would interfere when a bunch of villagers would gang up on a hobgoblin or Ogre (putting their inability to defeat an ogre aside), or a similar evil being.

Assuming this is justified by alignment - Viconia belongs to the same category and should be slain as any other ogre or kobold, otherwise we might start questioning why Paladins and party members slay stuff like hobgoblins in thousands without breaking any sweat, aren't those hobgoblins able to change as well? But I guess that's digging too deep in an inherently weak system. Up to everyone to decide whether a "typical" LG Pally should intervene in a situation like Viconia's - or actually encourage her opressors.

another way to look at this is to notice how some people consider not taking action against evil being equal to accepting the evil. So, a Paladin seeing an evil drow, likely to do evil things, and letting her go is sort of allowing the evil deed to be performed, and that is wrong, Paladin morals wise.

Modifié par Czacki, 15 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[Grond0]

I think it depends on how you define races. I agree entirely with Czacki that D&D games become unmanageable if you have to try and keep every orc you meet alive just in case they prove to be the one good apple in the barrel. However, I think it's also widely recognised that alignment is not generally a suitable guide for decision-making when dealing with humans. You could reasonably argue that drow are akin to orcs in this example and should therefore all be treated the same, although I would tend to argue that any race that will join an adventuring party should be treated as individuals (as with humans). I think this is also more in line with the expectations of the game designers - the fact that Viconia can shift alignment seems to suggest they believe in the possibility of redemption.

[ussnorway]

Czacki wrote...

That's an interesting way to use the flawed alignment system, lummoxybez. With such a variation, it makes sense.

If we however try to treat alignments as more substantial than just guidelines, I think Lawful Good characters are exactly meant to look like Keldorn: follow their laws, the rules they believe in to the extreme, and thus, destroy whatever evil they notice without much hesitation if the laws allow/encourage that.

How does Aeire fit into this i.e. same LG alignment as Keldorn but much less sure of her self... she also wants to stop the burning of Vicky because she see it as wrong but will ask you NOT to let her in the party.

IMO Viconia is an well desined drow who really struggles with right and wrong far more so than Keldorns' "I am the law!" or Arire's "O feel sorry for me, please"... but the bottom line is play the party you enjoy.

New topic; you get more from Mazzy if you also take Valgyar because in the late game they will each go burk'O if they see the other in trouble. I mostly drop Jaheira after finishing her quests unless I need the devine spells... But again its your party.

[HoonDing]

^Alignments in BG2 aren't always "to the book". Imo Aerie & Jaheira are neutral good.

lummoxybez wrote...

I always see Keldorn as an idiot fanatic, and in no way representative of the way a Paladin should be played. If any of my players in P&P RPGs played a Pally that way they would pretty soon become fallen Paladins.

Keldorn is the ultimate follower of Torm. Have you seen his ending? He basically becomes Torm's right hand in the afterlife, it could even be interpreted that he is deified.

Torm's dogma is the following:
Salvation may be found through service. Every failure of duty
diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain
law and order. Obey your masters with alert judgment and anticipation.
Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully
against rot in the hearts of mortals. Bring painful, quick death to
traitors. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or
alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith,
family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn.

In Faêrun, Drow regularly perform raids on the surface world, killing everything they come up against. Not to mention, the Drow coming-of-age ritual (the Blooding) involves killing an innocent surfacer. They're an all-evil race, like Orcs, illithids and phaerimm and the only exceptions to the rule are those few that managed to get out early (Drizzt, Qilué Veladorn, Liriel Baenre).

That is why any Drow found on the surface is slain on sight. Even Drizzt would've been slain, if he hadn't been lucky and ended up in the middle of nowhere where he found and befriended Catti-Brie.

To be honest, I can't even think of one villain in Forgotten Realms lore that ever repented, besides Viconia (even though she does remain a follower of Shar). As stated before, it's mostly fan service and ego stroking. It's a world without any moral ambiguity. 

Modifié par virumor, 16 mai 2011 - 09:45 .

[morbidest2]

Yes, genocide is alive and well on Toril. But I don't agree that the average LG character is really such an unthinking jerk at heart. To me, the only way the alignment system makes what little sense it does, is to believe that the first quality (L,N or C) reflects your actions, while the second (G,N or E) reflects your intent or innate nature. For instance, if your PC chooses to rescue Vicky from the hands of the officially approved mob, he/she is behaving in a CG manner. Keldorn's world view is, at best, NG, since he is more concerned with inforcing the norms of society rather than strictly applying the laws based on evidence.
In fact any PC in BG2 is forced to act in a CX manner, since you go around upsetting society all over the place.
To me the toughest alignment choice question in BG2 is what do you do about getting Wave's Head from the shark prince. Murder, betrayal, pickpocketing???

[lummoxybez]

virumor wrote...

In Faêrun, Drow regularly perform raids on the surface world, killing everything they come up against. Not to mention, the Drow coming-of-age ritual (the Blooding) involves killing an innocent surfacer. They're an all-evil race, like Orcs, illithids and phaerimm and the only exceptions to the rule are those few that managed to get out early (Drizzt, Qilué Veladorn, Liriel Baenre).

Don't forget the good Drow such as those worshipping Eilistraee. I know they are in the minority, but surely there are places in Faerun that have communities of good Drow.
This is probably a false argument though, as the lands of Amn have no doubt been subject to attacks from the evil Drow in that part of the continent.
I agree that some Paladins would behave in a manner that would result in Vicky being burnt alive, but there was no way I could let her suffer that fate, particularly as she had been my companion all through BG1, and strived to assist in the destruction of the evil Sarevok (although I conveniently didn't know about the blood-sacrifices.)
Letting her burn would've been an act of wickedness, forsaking both friendship and loyalty. Also the fact that some of the vigilantes attacked us and were slain with no loss of Reputation suggests that they were in the wrong. (The -2 Rep comes from having a Drow in your party AFAIK.)

Anyhoo, I think we're going in circles here. Suffice it to say that I think this particular decision is one that should be left to the individual to justify. In a P&P game, I could easily have justified my Pally's actions, so I see no problem doing the same in the game. Now my only problem is seeing to it that she doesn't leave because I'm too good.

[Czacki]

Fully agree with Virumor.

Btw, anyone else felt that Sarevok was sort of out of place in ToB? Him not only joining his rival but also (possibly) ****fing to "good"... meh.