206 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave666]

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Good analogy Squee, but Godwins Law? Really? I was expecting this to at least get to page 20 before someone invoked that.

tut tut tut

Modifié par Dave666, 13 mai 2011 - 09:25 .

[CroGamer002]

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Good analoggy Squee, but Godwins Law? Really? I was expecting this to at least get to page 20 before someone invoked that.

tut tut tut

Well looks like the rules...

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Sure there's legitimate grievences against Cerberus, my issue stems the other factions getting a blank pass. Some of the same people who hate Cerberus turn a blind eye to the Council sterilizing an entire species or the Geth nearly exterminating an entire species. I guess since Cerberus didn't do it then it's okay.

And I haven't seen any Pro-Cerberus fans talking about taking down the Alliance besides Extreme.

There are other threads for those other situations, and they don't get a 'blank pass.' Just as with Cerberus, there are cases made for and against. You don't have to agree with the logic of any given person's arguement, but that doesn't mean there is no logic.

And saying 'but others are evil too' does not make Cerberus less evil even if true. The ME could be a corrupt, evil universe and everyone in it evil. That wouldn't make Cerberus less evil.

[Seboist]

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Oh I see, exterminating the vast majority of a species isn't genocide as long as you don't pursue the few remaining that fled. That's cool.

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Oh I see, exterminating the vast majority of a species isn't genocide as long as you don't pursue the few remaining that fled. That's cool.

Really?  Thats your argument?

I really like the Quarians and even I can see that they screwed up big style.  You blame the Geth for killing the Quarians who kept on attacking and attacking and attacking over and over again?  Are you telling me that in a similar situation you wouldn't fight back?  Someone keeps on attacking you and won't stop.  When the Quarians finally came to their senses and stopped attacking the Geth, the Geth stopped killing the Quarians and left them alone.

[Seboist]

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Oh I see, exterminating the vast majority of a species isn't genocide as long as you don't pursue the few remaining that fled. That's cool.

Really?  Thats your argument?

I really like the Quarians and even I can see that they screwed up big style.  You blame the Geth for killing the Quarians who kept on attacking and attacking and attacking over and over again?  Are you telling me that in a similar situation you wouldn't fight back?  Someone keeps on attacking you and won't stop.  When the Quarians finally came to their senses and stopped attacking the Geth, the Geth stopped killing the Quarians and left them alone.

According to your logic if someone tried to kill me, then that makes it alright for me to slaughter their whole family in response.

[squee913]

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Oh I see, exterminating the vast majority of a species isn't genocide as long as you are fighitng to preserve one's self and when they give up you don't pursue the few remaining that fled. That's cool.

There ya go. Fixed it for you

Modifié par squee913, 13 mai 2011 - 09:47 .

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Oh I see, exterminating the vast majority of a species isn't genocide as long as you don't pursue the few remaining that fled. That's cool.

Really?  Thats your argument?

I really like the Quarians and even I can see that they screwed up big style.  You blame the Geth for killing the Quarians who kept on attacking and attacking and attacking over and over again?  Are you telling me that in a similar situation you wouldn't fight back?  Someone keeps on attacking you and won't stop.  When the Quarians finally came to their senses and stopped attacking the Geth, the Geth stopped killing the Quarians and left them alone.

According to your logic if someone tried to kill me, then that makes it alright for me to slaughter their whole family in response.

Nope.  Thats just you using a Straw man argument.

The only way that killing this hypothetical family would be justified is if each and every single one of them tried to kill you and the only way to survive was to kill them in self defence.

Modifié par Dave666, 13 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[squee913]

Seboist wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Oh I see, exterminating the vast majority of a species isn't genocide as long as you don't pursue the few remaining that fled. That's cool.

Really?  Thats your argument?

I really like the Quarians and even I can see that they screwed up big style.  You blame the Geth for killing the Quarians who kept on attacking and attacking and attacking over and over again?  Are you telling me that in a similar situation you wouldn't fight back?  Someone keeps on attacking you and won't stop.  When the Quarians finally came to their senses and stopped attacking the Geth, the Geth stopped killing the Quarians and left them alone.

According to your logic if someone tried to kill me, then that makes it alright for me to slaughter their whole family in response.

What? No, by that logic if one person attacked you, you would fight back. If one country attacked another, the other country would fight back. Etc etc. Quarians attacked Geth, Geth fought back. Lots of people died. Was this right? No, but it is not Genocide and as much as I love the Quarians, they started it. 

[Seboist]

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Geth reduced a species' population from billions to a few million but hey that's not genocide, that's "population reduction".

Genocide is when someone attacks another with the intent to wipe them all out. The Geth were fighting a war they did not start. If the Geth wanted Genocide, they would have hunted the rest of the Qurains down. It would not have been hard at that point. Instead, once the Quraians left he planet, they left everyone alone. If the Qurains kept attacking the geth until their numbers had been reduced to millions, that is not Genocide. It is the Quarians not knowing when to admit defeat.  

To prove the point, over 20 million Germans were killed in world war 2. This severely cut their population down. Yet, it is not called genocide because the Allies were not trying to wipe them out. Germany would not surrender and the Allies were forced to kill that many to end the war. 

Oh I see, exterminating the vast majority of a species isn't genocide as long as you don't pursue the few remaining that fled. That's cool.

Really?  Thats your argument?

I really like the Quarians and even I can see that they screwed up big style.  You blame the Geth for killing the Quarians who kept on attacking and attacking and attacking over and over again?  Are you telling me that in a similar situation you wouldn't fight back?  Someone keeps on attacking you and won't stop.  When the Quarians finally came to their senses and stopped attacking the Geth, the Geth stopped killing the Quarians and left them alone.

According to your logic if someone tried to kill me, then that makes it alright for me to slaughter their whole family in response.

Nope.  Thats just you using a Straw man argument.

The only way that killing this hypothetical family would be justified is if each and every single one of them tried to kill you and the only way to survive was to kill them in self defence.

So every Quarian was armed to the teeth and out Geth hunting?

[Seboist]

mrsph wrote...

Wiping out 99% of a species population doesn't count as genocide?

Apparently not.

[MisterJB]

mrsph wrote...

Wiping out 99% of a species population doesn't count as genocide?

The quarians tried to wipe out the Geth. They simply defended themselves and did not even pursue the Quarians when they could have destroyed the Migrant Fleet very easily and have taken no actions against them in the centuries after the end of the war.
That doesn't count as genocide.

[Seboist]

mrsph wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The quarians tried to wipe out the Geth. They simply defended themselves and did not even pursue the Quarians when they could have destroyed the Migrant Fleet very easily and have taken no actions against them in the centuries after the end of the war.
That doesn't count as genocide.

Look. Even if the geth were defending themselves it is still genocide. They tried to exteriminate the quarians just like the quarians tried to exterminate them. This does not make the geth good; there is no good side in a war. Especially in a war where two species are trying to render the other one extinct.

Yep, the Geth were justified in defending themselves but the moment they started indiscriminately butchering Quarians they lost the moral high ground.

[Captain_Obvious]

mrsph wrote...

Wiping out 99% of a species population doesn't count as genocide?

Not necessarily.  Genocide is typically seen as deliberate and systematic and based on race or culture.  I would add the qualifier of "without provocation," but that's the way I use it.  That being said, the ME universe sure has a thing for wiping out entire civilizations.  Protheans, Krogan Genophage, Quarian Exile, Rachni Wars.  That's an awful lot of civilizations and races to be "completely decimated but not by genocide" even for me.  Problems, problems.

[MisterJB]

mrsph wrote...
Look. Even if the geth were defending themselves it is still genocide. They tried to exteriminate the quarians just like the quarians tried to exterminate them. 

The Geth were not trying to exterminate the Quarians. In fact, they could have done so very easily after they drove them from their worlds but, in over 300 years, the Geth have not attempted to attack the Migrant Fleet once.

Seboist wrote...
Yep, the Geth were justified in defending themselves but the moment they started indiscriminately butchering Quarians they lost the moral high ground.

Is there anything in the game that I migth have missed that indicates the Geth deliberately and systematically killed civilians?

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 mai 2011 - 10:20 .

[Seboist]

MisterJB wrote...

mrsph wrote...
Look. Even if the geth were defending themselves it is still genocide. They tried to exteriminate the quarians just like the quarians tried to exterminate them. 

The Geth were not trying to exterminate the Quarians. In fact, they could have done so very easily after they drove them from their worlds but, in over 300 years, the Geth have not attempted to attack the Migrant Fleet once.

They sure fooled me then.

[squee913]

mrsph wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The quarians tried to wipe out the Geth. They simply defended themselves and did not even pursue the Quarians when they could have destroyed the Migrant Fleet very easily and have taken no actions against them in the centuries after the end of the war.
That doesn't count as genocide.

Look. Even if the geth were defending themselves it is still genocide. They tried to exteriminate the quarians just like the quarians tried to exterminate them. This does not make the geth good; there is no good side in a war. Especially in a war where two species are trying to render the other one extinct.

I'm not saying that wrong was not done on both sides. I am saying that it was no genocide. For it to be genocide, there has to be intent to wipe out the race. There is no evidence of that. If that was what the geth wanted, there would not be a migrant fleet.

If a group A hunts down group B  in order to kill all of them, that is genocide.  If, in that fight, group B kills most of the attacking group A before group A gives up, that is not considered genocide.

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

mrsph wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The quarians tried to wipe out the Geth. They simply defended themselves and did not even pursue the Quarians when they could have destroyed the Migrant Fleet very easily and have taken no actions against them in the centuries after the end of the war.
That doesn't count as genocide.

Look. Even if the geth were defending themselves it is still genocide. They tried to exteriminate the quarians just like the quarians tried to exterminate them. This does not make the geth good; there is no good side in a war. Especially in a war where two species are trying to render the other one extinct.

Yep, the Geth were justified in defending themselves but the moment they started indiscriminately butchering Quarians they lost the moral high ground.

Define 'indiscriminately'.

If a ten year old boy came at me with hate in his eyes wielding an AK47 are you saying that I have no right to stop him simply because he's a child?

We have very few details about what actually happened in the Morning War, but we do know that the Geth newly arrived at sentience suddenly get attacked for reasons they don't understand.  They tried to stop this and ended up killing.  I'm sure there will have been civilian transport ships and the like that got destroyed in the chaos of war, but we have no way of knowing whether or not this was intentional or whether the Geth simply didn't know that these ships were unarmed and carrying women and children.  Its all speculation on our part and calling the Geth 'Genocidal Robots' is disengenuous at best.

[squee913]

Seboist wrote...

mrsph wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The quarians tried to wipe out the Geth. They simply defended themselves and did not even pursue the Quarians when they could have destroyed the Migrant Fleet very easily and have taken no actions against them in the centuries after the end of the war.
That doesn't count as genocide.

Look. Even if the geth were defending themselves it is still genocide. They tried to exteriminate the quarians just like the quarians tried to exterminate them. This does not make the geth good; there is no good side in a war. Especially in a war where two species are trying to render the other one extinct.

Yep, the Geth were justified in defending themselves but the moment they started indiscriminately butchering Quarians they lost the moral high ground.

I'm sorry, can you show me where the geth started, " indiscriminately butchering Quarians"? there is nothing anywhere that staes that. there was a war. The quarians lost a lot of people. that is all we know. There is nothing anywehre saying the geth kiled quarians at random for the fun of it.

[ExtremeOne]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

So defending Cerberus makes one a troll . WOW  you alliance fans have been using the books and anything to defend the idea that Cerberus is evil .  As far as changing my mind Bioware will need to have a very logical reason why TIM and Cerberus turned on Shepard in 3 .  I am not a troll because I defend Cerberus . I am just one that is not afraid to speak up about them .  

Defending Cerberus the way you do, disregarding facts and replacing them with your own unsubstantiated opinion, yeah, just makes you a troll.

Only way I can bother with reading your posts anymore is to give them the madlib treatment.  Just replace the word Alien with something like "Muggle/pepsi drinker/minority" and replace Cerberus or humanity with "Wizard/coke drinker/white people" and it's like visiting every fringe website out there without having to actually go there to read the crazy.

    








fair enough and I will tend to change my style up some . My thing was Cerberus part of the alliance in ME 1 . If the answer is yes then their actions in one reflect back on the alliance . Now in 2 they must have changed since they brought Shepard back and built the SR 2 .  So why the change back in 3 it makes no sense at all .