206 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

squee913 wrote...

I'm sorry, can you show me where the geth started, " indiscriminately butchering Quarians"? there is nothing anywhere that staes that. there was a war. The quarians lost a lot of people. that is all we know. There is nothing anywehre saying the geth kiled quarians at random for the fun of it.

Almost the entire quarian species was killed.  What more do you want?  That's genocide.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Nobody here knows how the morning war was fought, The quarians could have been using viruses to wipe billions of Geth programs and the Geth could have responded with biological/chemical weapons of mass death.

Which side is the worst then?

All we know is that the quarians lost the war but not how it was fought.

And while we don't know if the Geth had genocide as a goal during the war, We do however know for certain that the quarians DID in fact have genocide as their goal - After all it was the very reason they went to war in the first place, To wipe out a race they knew were sentient.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 13 mai 2011 - 10:49 .

[squee913]

ExtremeOne wrote...

M-Sinistrari wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

So defending Cerberus makes one a troll . WOW  you alliance fans have been using the books and anything to defend the idea that Cerberus is evil .  As far as changing my mind Bioware will need to have a very logical reason why TIM and Cerberus turned on Shepard in 3 .  I am not a troll because I defend Cerberus . I am just one that is not afraid to speak up about them .  

Defending Cerberus the way you do, disregarding facts and replacing them with your own unsubstantiated opinion, yeah, just makes you a troll.

Only way I can bother with reading your posts anymore is to give them the madlib treatment.  Just replace the word Alien with something like "Muggle/pepsi drinker/minority" and replace Cerberus or humanity with "Wizard/coke drinker/white people" and it's like visiting every fringe website out there without having to actually go there to read the crazy.

    








fair enough and I will tend to change my style up some . My thing was Cerberus part of the alliance in ME 1 . If the answer is yes then their actions in one reflect back on the alliance . Now in 2 they must have changed since they brought Shepard back and built the SR 2 .  So why the change back in 3 it makes no sense at all . 

at he moment it makes no sense. That would be because it has not been explained yet. Kind of like the abilities of the Agents in the matrix made no sense what soever until it was explained that they were in a computer program. The thing is... most people did not freak out about how stupid it was for Agents to punch through walls BEFORE the movie came out and it was explained why. They just waited until things were explained. 

[Moiaussi]

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

[squee913]

didymos1120 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

I'm sorry, can you show me where the geth started, " indiscriminately butchering Quarians"? there is nothing anywhere that staes that. there was a war. The quarians lost a lot of people. that is all we know. There is nothing anywehre saying the geth kiled quarians at random for the fun of it.

Almost the entire quarian species was killed.  What more do you want?  That's genocide.

First of all, I asked for evidence tha the Geth were killing a random for the heck of it. The fact ha most of the quarians died does not prove this at all. Second, Genocide is an attempt to exterminate of a people based on race, ethnicity, nationality, or belife. If 5 guys attack me and I kill 4 of them in the fight before the last one gives up, that does not mean I wanted to exterminate them. It is not genocide. 

[Dave666]

Moiaussi wrote...

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

Whats even funnier is that The Morning War happened in 1895, we'd only invented the internal combustion engine 12 years before that.

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

It justifies Project Overlord.

[Moiaussi]

mrsph wrote...

Because Cerberus cares. And when people don't care, that is when crime breeds, and criminals take over.

And a war long over before Cerberus even existed proves Cerberus cares, how exactly?

And how do you reconcile your opinion with TIM complaining (in Ascension) about the Alliance having laws? Or do you feel that criminals only take over because we have laws, and therefore if we simply get rid of those nasty inconvenient laws, what the criminals are doing is somehow ok?

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

It justifies Project Overlord.

Isn't that like saying that WWII justifies mind contolling all Germans today? And that was a lot less than 300 years ago.

Edit: Actually, that analogy can be taken further. There was genocide in WWII, the Balkan wars, and most recently in Rwanda. That is not an inclusive list. Based on that and your logic, wouldn't other races be completely justified in wanting to eliminate humanity? Do you feel that they would be as justified as you with respect to the Geth?

And what is your opinion of the Quarian attempt to commit genocide against the Geth?

Modifié par Moiaussi, 13 mai 2011 - 11:05 .

[Dave666]

mrsph wrote...

Ain't no rule says you can't hook an autistic man up to a horrible machine to reprogram the geth.

You mean apart from the 'Human Rights' one?

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

It justifies Project Overlord.

Isn't that like saying that WWII justifies mind contolling all Germans today? And that was a lot less than 300 years ago.

Like Legion says the Geth aren't individuals. The only difference is perspective.

If it prevents "a million mothers mourning the lives of a million sons" then it's good.

[squee913]

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

It justifies Project Overlord.

soooooo that fact that the quarians started a war and got their buts kicked 300 years ago justifies committing horrible acts to a handicapped man and almost unleashing a virus that could breakdown civilization as they know it on the off chance that it might help them control a race of machines that have left everyone alone for 300 years. 

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Like Legion says the Geth aren't individuals. The only difference is perspective.

If it prevents "a million mothers mourning the lives of a million sons" then it's good.

While Legion does say that, his statement is based on the fact that the Geth have true realtime democracy. If the statement was literally true though, then the Geth wouldn't actually vote on anything. All decisions would be unanimous.

The Asari vote on everything too, they just are not as efficient as the Geth in doing so. Does that mean the Asari aren't individuals?

And if there are no Geth individuals, what was Legion's loyalty mission all about? Shouldn't it have been completely unneccessary, since it would have been impossible for the Heretics to be an independant faction?

[Moiaussi]

mrsph wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

You mean apart from the 'Human Rights' one?

Geez, how much more obivious do I have to get that I'm joking.

Given the number of posters who say the same thing without joking? You pretty much have to say outright that you are joking, lol

[Dave666]

mrsph wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

You mean apart from the 'Human Rights' one?

Geez, how much more obivious do I have to get that I'm joking.

My apologies then, sometimes its easy to miss things when all we have to work with is text. 

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Like Legion says the Geth aren't individuals. The only difference is perspective.

If it prevents "a million mothers mourning the lives of a million sons" then it's good.

While Legion does say that, his statement is based on the fact that the Geth have true realtime democracy. If the statement was literally true though, then the Geth wouldn't actually vote on anything. All decisions would be unanimous.

The Asari vote on everything too, they just are not as efficient as the Geth in doing so. Does that mean the Asari aren't individuals?

And if there are no Geth individuals, what was Legion's loyalty mission all about? Shouldn't it have been completely unneccessary, since it would have been impossible for the Heretics to be an independant faction?

Just because the Heretics are a different faction doesn't mean that they're individuals. There's absolutely no heirarchy and the "individual" platforms have zero personality or identity. They have about as much free will as a single ant in a colony does.

[alperez]

ExtremeOne wrote...

fair enough and I will tend to change my style up some . My thing was Cerberus part of the alliance in ME 1 . If the answer is yes then their actions in one reflect back on the alliance . Now in 2 they must have changed since they brought Shepard back and built the SR 2 .  So why the change back in 3 it makes no sense at all .

See this could actually be a valid argument, if what we get in me3 is a retcon of everything we know about cerberus.

But in me1 its only alluded by one person that cerberus was ever part of the alliance, there is anecdotal evidence and i personally go with the idea that they were originally part of the alliance but then went rogue and were tolerated and helped by the more hawkish alliance upper echelons ever since that point. Hell we know from our own history/present that from time to time governments use outside groups to do things they cannot do themselves and sometimes get bitten by the alliances they make.

In me2 you use the argument that cerberus changed and helped Shepard but the question remains why?

Was it an altruistic measure by cerberus or was it a smaller part of a larger plan that we as yet don't know?

We will get an answer to this in me3 and when all is added up it could make perfect sense or be a complete retcon that makes no sense whatsoever. The thing is that if you look at it from one viewpoint you can say that cerberus used nefarious means to acheive certain goals in me1, in me2 they went a different route but have their goals changed or are they still following the same idealogy they've always followed.

Cerberus have a single goal human dominance, maybe that goal has changed into human survival or maybe that goal is now Tim's survival, we just don't know.  Making a deal with the reapers considering how ultra powerful they are isn't the most foolish idea out there, Saren tried it and he wasn't stupid just in the end misguided.

Look we all know that in the end Shepard will find a way to beat the reapers, save the world, get the girl and beat the odds, but logically would TIM knowing what he knows believe the same?

What to me would make sense would be if the reason TIM brought Shepard back from the dead to beat the collectors was to make a better deal, to get the best terms possible. That in fact cerberus hasn't changed at all, they are still an ends justify the means organisation. What i fear is that we'll get a TIM is now indoctrinated and is Saren mk.2 that to me would be sloppy writing because its a cheap plotline.

It makes no sense that an indoctrinated TIM would bring back the one person who took down a reaper after the collectors took Shepard out in the first place.

[Seboist]

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

It justifies Project Overlord.

soooooo that fact that the quarians started a war and got their buts kicked 300 years ago justifies committing horrible acts to a handicapped man and almost unleashing a virus that could breakdown civilization as they know it on the off chance that it might help them control a race of machines that have left everyone alone for 300 years. 

That war showed how are dangerous the Geth were. It's foolish not to try to develop a weapon that could minimize losses in the event of a war.

[Dean_the_Young]

Heck, ME1 justifies Overlord by and large.

[squee913]

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Well done Seboist. I didn't realize this thread was titled "The Truth about the Geth." Who knew?

How does a war in which both sides were attempting Genocide 300 years ago in any way justify Cerberus today? That war was long over before humanity had even discovered we are not alone in the universe.

It justifies Project Overlord.

soooooo that fact that the quarians started a war and got their buts kicked 300 years ago justifies committing horrible acts to a handicapped man and almost unleashing a virus that could breakdown civilization as they know it on the off chance that it might help them control a race of machines that have left everyone alone for 300 years. 

That war showed how are dangerous the Geth were. It's foolish not to try to develop a weapon that could minimize losses in the event of a war.

I don't take issue with the goal of overlord, just the method. It is foolish to endanger innocent people by rushing projects. They did not care about human rights. they did not care about safety precautions, they did not care about the consistences of their actions. They only cared about results. Because of that, they almost brought unspeakable harm on the whole galaxy that Shepard barely stopped. Developing weapons to fight geth is justified. Endangering everyone to do it is not unless you are desperate and have no other options. This was not the case.  

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Just because the Heretics are a different faction doesn't mean that they're individuals. There's absolutely no heirarchy and the "individual" platforms have zero personality or identity. They have about as much free will as a single ant in a colony does.

If they have no identity or personality, how is it they don't all vote unanimously? There is no heirarchy because there is no need for one. They have a pure democracy, not a representative democracy. If they didn't have free will, they wouldn't be voting. The Heretics wouldn't have separated because they wouldn't have had the ability to do so.

Btw, don't you feel somewhat hypocritical calling the Council a 'dictatorship' in one breath and in the other condeming the Geth because they don't have a heirarchy?