206 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

The idea that Overlord had no safety protocols intrigues me. What evidence of this was there?

[Moiaussi]

mrsph wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Heck, ME1 justifies Overlord by and large.

That does raise a good question.

Why in the hell did no one have any detterents to deal with the geth if they decided to go hostile on the rest of the galaxy?

You mean like fleets and standing armies? The same deterrents that are used against everyone else? Nah, noone has those....

[M-Sinistrari]

ExtremeOne wrote...

fair enough and I will tend to change my style up some . My thing was Cerberus part of the alliance in ME 1 . If the answer is yes then their actions in one reflect back on the alliance . Now in 2 they must have changed since they brought Shepard back and built the SR 2 .  So why the change back in 3 it makes no sense at all .

Ahhh....some intriguing points to properly discuss.

I do believe that Cerberus was part of the Alliance in ME1.  Most likely was under a different organizational structure and more like the military, and yes did do some very questionable things while part of the Alliance.  Just proves that the Alliance isn't all rainbows and sunshine which would be rather silly to believe that it was all sugar and light.

I can see it as possible as time went on and some higher ups questioning thier actions enough to sow the seeds of others who did fully back them to want to split off.  Figure at this point TIM steps in as I can see him as originally one of the private sector backers and they begin the split off proper.  Be easy enough to get members since there's going to be some discontent as to the general trend of things with a push to be more pro-active in the galactic community which when concessions get made can seem like humanity's accomidating others to the expense of themselves.

As we've seen in game, TIM's said nothing happens without him knowing, yet as operatives have also said he's more concerned about results than the methods to get there.  He's only one man, so maybe he did start off knowing every little aspect of things and over time just began to focus more on results than methods.  We might never know.

So, that leaves it possible that there's things going on that he's not in the know about.  So, not even getting into the reaper parts stuff since I don't read the books and comics, just there's enough possibility that there's groups within Cerberus who `have their own machinations, or be indoctrinated.  They can concieveably be feeding TIM wrong reports so he acts on erroneous information and that's how we end up in ME3.

Again, this is just baseless speculating on my part and very possibly be completely wrong.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The idea that Overlord had no safety protocols intrigues me. What evidence of this was there?

An autistic human is hardly a safe control mechanism.

[Dean_the_Young]

mrsph wrote...

Overlord had safety precautions. They just didn't expect David to get so out of control.

Or rather, they didn't expect a David going out of control to be so powerful. The David-Virus hybrid was neither and both organic and machine and has no comparitive known analog in the galaxy. Not even the Reapers are of the same sort, and not even a super-AI like EDI could stand against a 'mere' VI-virus with a human face.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The idea that Overlord had no safety protocols intrigues me. What evidence of this was there?

An autistic human is hardly a safe control mechanism.

Agreed. Now, since when was David ever suggested or implied to be the primary safety protocol?

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Just because the Heretics are a different faction doesn't mean that they're individuals. There's absolutely no heirarchy and the "individual" platforms have zero personality or identity. They have about as much free will as a single ant in a colony does.

If they have no identity or personality, how is it they don't all vote unanimously? There is no heirarchy because there is no need for one. They have a pure democracy, not a representative democracy. If they didn't have free will, they wouldn't be voting. The Heretics wouldn't have separated because they wouldn't have had the ability to do so.

Btw, don't you feel somewhat hypocritical calling the Council a 'dictatorship' in one breath and in the other condeming the Geth because they don't have a heirarchy?

Individual programs are no more sentient than a VI and need to be grouped together for any kind of intelligence. How is that "individuality"? They're no better than Rachni workers and soldiers who go bonkers without a Queen.

And no I don't feel hypocritical for condemning the Council a "dictatorship". They're an Asari/Turian/Salarian good ol' boys clubs claiming dominion over the others. The "condemnation" of the Geth's lack of hiereachy was over their lack of individuality.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Heck, ME1 justifies Overlord by and large.

How do you mean? That the events of ME1 justify the initiative behind Project Overlord, or that they justify the use of David Archer as a nonconsensual test subject in said project? 

I would agree with the former and disagree vehemently with the later. 

That said, I do hold that the blame for David’s use as a test subject (and the subsequent failure of Project Overlord) must be laid almost exclusively at the feet of Gavin Archer, not of Cerberus as a whole or even of TIM.

Modifié par General User, 14 mai 2011 - 12:02 .

[Seboist]

mrsph wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

An autistic human is hardly a safe control mechanism.

Which is why they had that three step shutdown sequence, and tried to cut the power off from David the second he went haywire.

It begs the question why the Geth platforms were in close proximity to firearms.

Still, even without guns I wouldn't want to get punched in the face by one. :happy:

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Heck, ME1 justifies Overlord by and large.

How do you mean.? That the events of ME1 justify the initiative behind Project Overlord, or that they justify the use of David Archer as a nonconsensual test subject in said project? 

I would agree with the former and disagree vehemently with the later. 

The former, of course. The later rightly deserves criticism on moral, ethical, and practial grounds. Even incorporating David into the tests might have been based had greater precaution for David been taken.

[ExtremeOne]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

fair enough and I will tend to change my style up some . My thing was Cerberus part of the alliance in ME 1 . If the answer is yes then their actions in one reflect back on the alliance . Now in 2 they must have changed since they brought Shepard back and built the SR 2 .  So why the change back in 3 it makes no sense at all .

Ahhh....some intriguing points to properly discuss.

I do believe that Cerberus was part of the Alliance in ME1.  Most likely was under a different organizational structure and more like the military, and yes did do some very questionable things while part of the Alliance.  Just proves that the Alliance isn't all rainbows and sunshine which would be rather silly to believe that it was all sugar and light.

I can see it as possible as time went on and some higher ups questioning thier actions enough to sow the seeds of others who did fully back them to want to split off.  Figure at this point TIM steps in as I can see him as originally one of the private sector backers and they begin the split off proper.  Be easy enough to get members since there's going to be some discontent as to the general trend of things with a push to be more pro-active in the galactic community which when concessions get made can seem like humanity's accomidating others to the expense of themselves.

As we've seen in game, TIM's said nothing happens without him knowing, yet as operatives have also said he's more concerned about results than the methods to get there.  He's only one man, so maybe he did start off knowing every little aspect of things and over time just began to focus more on results than methods.  We might never know.

So, that leaves it possible that there's things going on that he's not in the know about.  So, not even getting into the reaper parts stuff since I don't read the books and comics, just there's enough possibility that there's groups within Cerberus who `have their own machinations, or be indoctrinated.  They can concieveably be feeding TIM wrong reports so he acts on erroneous information and that's how we end up in ME3.

Again, this is just baseless speculating on my part and very possibly be completely wrong.

    



Your idea of Cerberus being evil in 3 sounds logical and I agree I think Cerberus was part of the alliance in 1 . 

[squee913]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The idea that Overlord had no safety protocols intrigues me. What evidence of this was there?

An autistic human is hardly a safe control mechanism.

Agreed. Now, since when was David ever suggested or implied to be the primary safety protocol?

The idea of plugging David into a machine to control other machines was a completely new concept. Most people would spend months or even years testing this little by little. They would make sure that this method was safe before trying it. Archer had TIM breathing down his neck and had to rush In archers own words

"I'd be lying if I said no harm could come to David. His autistic mind is as alien to me as an actual AI. Anything could happen when we plug him in. But I have to try."

Does that sound like a responsible project head to you?

[Seboist]

I wonder what happens to Gavin if Shep takes David away?

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Individual programs are no more sentient than a VI and need to be grouped together for any kind of intelligence. How is that "individuality"? They're no better than Rachni workers and soldiers who go bonkers without a Queen.

And no I don't feel hypocritical for condemning the Council a "dictatorship". They're an Asari/Turian/Salarian good ol' boys clubs claiming dominion over the others. The "condemnation" of the Geth's lack of hiereachy was over their lack of individuality.

They reach conclusions independantly. How is that any different than any given human 'program' reaching its own conclusions and voting accordingly on any given decision? They need to be grouped together because they share resources. They don't vote in such groupings though, but independantly. That isn't the same as them being the components of a computer or organic brain. In the human brain, individual neurons don't vote on everything. Different parts of the brain cover different aspects of running the body. Memory, creativity and logic functions are all different parts of the brain, for example. In a computer that is parallel processing, the different processors don't all do the same task and compare results, they divide the work. The Geth don't operate like either. Each votes.

Even if you stick to your view that any given program has no individuality, then you still have to consider them to have a group individuality. That is to say, to think of the Geth as one very large individual. Either way, your opinion seems to boil down to 'they are different from us therefore they are bad.'

A heirarchy means some indivduals have power over other individuals. That is what it means, a tiered society. Given the voting and communications efficiency of the Geth, they can have an egalitarian society where each program can be considered equal. That doesn't mean they are literally equal or identical.

[Moiaussi]

Btw, why is it that Cerberus doesn't believe in firewalls? Decrypting the IFF should have been done by a remote system unconnected with any of the Normandy's systems.

Similarly, communications in Overlord should have been by some sort of non-digital medium to increase containment level.

[squee913]

Moiaussi wrote...

Btw, why is it that Cerberus doesn't believe in firewalls? Decrypting the IFF should have been done by a remote system unconnected with any of the Normandy's systems.

Similarly, communications in Overlord should have been by some sort of non-digital medium to increase containment level.

Yup! never seen an AI hijack a string connected to two cans!

[Dean_the_Young]

squee913 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The idea that Overlord had no safety protocols intrigues me. What evidence of this was there?

An autistic human is hardly a safe control mechanism.

Agreed. Now, since when was David ever suggested or implied to be the primary safety protocol?

The idea of plugging David into a machine to control other machines was a completely new concept. Most people would spend months or even years testing this little by little. They would make sure that this method was safe before trying it. Archer had TIM breathing down his neck and had to rush In archers own words

"I'd be lying if I said no harm could come to David. His autistic mind is as alien to me as an actual AI. Anything could happen when we plug him in. But I have to try."

Does that sound like a responsible project head to you?

No, but then at irresponsibility is separate from implications (or lack of) that Dr. Archer didn't have any sensible safety precautions setup ahead of time.

[squee913]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The idea that Overlord had no safety protocols intrigues me. What evidence of this was there?

An autistic human is hardly a safe control mechanism.

Agreed. Now, since when was David ever suggested or implied to be the primary safety protocol?

The idea of plugging David into a machine to control other machines was a completely new concept. Most people would spend months or even years testing this little by little. They would make sure that this method was safe before trying it. Archer had TIM breathing down his neck and had to rush In archers own words

"I'd be lying if I said no harm could come to David. His autistic mind is as alien to me as an actual AI. Anything could happen when we plug him in. But I have to try."

Does that sound like a responsible project head to you?

No, but then at irresponsibility is separate from implications (or lack of) that Dr. Archer didn't have any sensible safety precautions setup ahead of time.

Saftey precaution #1: If you have no idea what will happen, don't do it.

Ask any sensible scientist if they would conduct a dangerous experiment when they have no idea what so ever what might happen. Perhaps is was exaggerating to say there were no safety measures, but Archer was taking a risk and he knew it.  It was a stupid risk and a horrible thing to do to david. The fact that it might possibly give us a new weapon against the geith is not a justification for it. What's more is that TIM approved of the action after the fact.

Modifié par squee913, 14 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

squee913 wrote...

Saftey precaution #1: If you have no idea what will happen, don't do it.

Ask any sensible scientist if they would conduct a dangerous experiment when they have no idea what so ever what might happen.  It was a stupid risk and a horrible thing to do to david. The fact that it might possibly give us a new weapon against the geith is not a justification for it.

The basis of the scientific method is that if you have no idea what will happen, do it and then keep doing it while controlling variables. There are times for cautious science and there are times for speculative science, and neither approach precludes the existence of safety measures in place to limit failure. Which, I'll remind you, is the question at hand.

The possiblity of nullifying a geth invasion isn't a justification for ignoring care for David and going about in so many shock-procedures, but it is a justification for looking into working with and on David in general. (Not, I'll repeat, in the way that it was done.) It's not necessarily an all-encompasing justification, but it is a valid one with weight.

[squee913]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Saftey precaution #1: If you have no idea what will happen, don't do it.

Ask any sensible scientist if they would conduct a dangerous experiment when they have no idea what so ever what might happen.  It was a stupid risk and a horrible thing to do to david. The fact that it might possibly give us a new weapon against the geith is not a justification for it.

The basis of the scientific method is that if you have no idea what will happen, do it and then keep doing it while controlling variables. There are times for cautious science and there are times for speculative science, and neither approach precludes the existence of safety measures in place to limit failure. Which, I'll remind you, is the question at hand.

The possiblity of nullifying a geth invasion isn't a justification for ignoring care for David and going about in so many shock-procedures, but it is a justification for looking into working with and on David in general. (Not, I'll repeat, in the way that it was done.) It's not necessarily an all-encompasing justification, but it is a valid one with weight.

I admitted that it was an exaggeration to say there were no precautions (probably after you started the response) and I apologize, but that is a moot point. They did not take the time to prepare the project properly. They did not test and try to predict every variable. They plugged him in with no idea what would happen. It was a stupid risk that almost caused havoc across the entire galaxy. The fact that this might have given them a weapon against the geth does not justify this risk (which was the point of the original conversation) 

Modifié par squee913, 14 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

squee913 wrote...

I admitted that it was an exaduration to say there were no precausitons (probably after you started the response) and I apologize, but that is a moot point. They did not ake the time to prepare the project properly. They did not test and try to predict every variable. They plugged him in with no idea what would happen. It was a stupid risk that almost casued havok across the enitre galaxy. The fact that this might have given them a weapon against the geth does not justify this risk (which was the point of the original conversation)

Since we've long since left the relevant discussion, my only response is this response indicating no further response will be coming to this line of argument.