131 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

Personally I found Zaeed a little too easy to convince and gain his loyalty after Vido got away...I like Zaeed on my team and he is one of my most used squaddies....

But as Zaeed and Kasumi are DLC's, maybe it it could have been played out that the Renegade LM option gets Zaeed on the ship and loyal and the Paragon LM option gets Kasumi on the ship and loyal. If either one of these characters does not end up on your ship, in ME3 you get a cameo from Zaeed in which you are caught up in his final battle with Vido and/or cameo from Kasumi,in which she has done something foolish through the loss of the grey box and you get dragged into the fall out from that.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 13 mai 2011 - 01:00 .

[Arijharn]

Except that it was all a Paragon decision, it doesn't really do your argument well to hand wave and try to jedi mind trick us into thinking it was actually 'the renegade thing to do.'

You committed perjury for the sake of your friend or lover.

Note that it wasn't the 'Quarian Admiralty Board' that had the terrible secret, it was Rael'Zorah that had the terrible secret, I think the difference isn't slight.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's just as easy to turn that discussion around as well:

"Hey, I need to send your fleets to defend my home planet against a hoarde of super-advanced machines that may be impossible to stop. We must fight to the last for the innocents on Earth."

(Recipient pauses, recalls that this is the same person who was willing to gamble the entire galactic existence on throwing away reinforcements to save the Council before Sovereign.)

"No, we think we'll make a more sensible plan than you. Bye."

Can't agree with that one at all, Dean_the_Young. Now everybody knows that Shep's not a nut and that the Reapers would have come through the Citadel if Shep hadn't stopped Saren. Everybody would have been better off if they'd only listened. Also, Shep proved humanity was willing to make sacrifices for the good of the whole. That's what Shep will be asking for in ME3.

I'm certain the alien species would agree, and be happy enough to allow humanity continue making sacrificies as Shepard proved they were willing to do, back when Shepard did an incredibly risky, non-sensible thing to do which they now recognize how non-sensible it was with the entire galaxy at stake.

Yes, Shepard's non-sensibility worked in their favor... but it doesn't lead to encouraging a repeat and return to non-sensibility. Especially not when Shepard's helpfully proved that Humanity is willing to take sacrifices for the galactic good, which would not be served in an overly risky counterattack for the sake of just a few billion people.

[Jonathan Shepard]

cast2007 wrote...

Even though i play as a paragon, I always let the workers die.

Why? Because I know that if Vido escapes, then he'll be able to inflict harm on even more innocents. I figure that the number of innocents that are stuck on the planet is far less than the innocents that he's going to harm if he isn't stopped.

Is it cruel. Of course it is. But it's objective analysis to see what generates the best outcome for the future. Purely cold hearted calculation.

Will it haunt my Shepard. Most definitely. But he'll sleep at night knowing that he made the best choice out of two horrible ones and that a man who would otherwise be out there terrorizing innocents is dead and gone.

Same as with the Balak decision, but I have to admit, Zaeed's loyalty mission didn't emphasize that nearly as much as it should've to make the choices appear equal, both with certain pros and cons, like BDtS did.

[Bluko]

 Well I agree to an extent. There doesn't seem to be much reward for doing things the Renegade way. I dunno it's like Renegades are simply Renegade for their own sake. I mean some of the Renegade decisions have sound logic, but yeah it seems rather common that Renegades do the hard/unpleasant things, but get very little out of it. A classic example is Udina. True I don't know why anyone would really want to pick Udina, but picking Udina has no benefits over Anderson. In fact if you choose Udina you screw yourself out of becoming a Spectre again. (Unless you save the Council.)

In my opinion the series needs to do a better job of rewarding decisions made. There should be Pros and Cons to each decision. You shouldn't get extra Credits just because you made a Paragon decision in the last game. If that is the case then the Renegade decision needs to offer a similar benefit. If saving someone means a Paragon gets a new mission in the next installment, then Renegades should get some other reward. Perhaps a new weapon. Though you need to be careful as you don't want people making certain decisions simply to meta-game rewards.

Hopefully in the case of Zaeed's loyalty mission, letting Video go will serve to bite Paragons in the ass a bit. Like in ME3 Zaeed tracks down Vido finally, but in his last desperate effort to survive Vido kills a bunch of innocent bystanders in the process (although Zaeed is innocent of any wrong doing in this case). So you may have saved the workers in ME2, but by letting Vido get away he just did something equally as bad before you kill him. That's namely what I'd like to see. You know maybe so that Zaeed wasn't entirely wrong when he said letting Vido get away would be just as bad.

That way yeah it may seem cruel to let those workers die, but by getting rid of Vido the first time you can rest assured there won't be any more civilian casualities due to Vido's actions.

It just sort of grates me that being Renegade a lot of the time seems to be being evil for evil's sake. I'd to like to think the ME series was going for more of a moral gray, rather then white and black. You know more then the noble Paladin vs. the wicked Necromancer. Cause realistically even destructive actions (such as forest fires) have benefits to the environment.

[Seboist]

I wish there were alternate side missions for the decisions we made. Like Paragons would get a mission where they have to go after Balak in ME2 if they let him go or Renegade in another situation has to deal with some criminals who are running amok because he killed some mob boss who kept them in line before.

[PsychoWARD23]

We'll all just have to wait for ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

mrsph wrote...

Zaeed burning Vido to death is worth it.

Love that scene

I appreciate the screams they have playing in the background while the workers burn. Nicely done for effect.

[Arijharn]

All that is immaterial due to the fact you get another AR upgrade. But while that's an interesting branch (and one that is needed imo between the choices of paragon or renegade) it's the end result (with enough charm) that I feel invalidates the decision as a whole.

I think the decision of saving or damning the workers to get Zaeed's loyalty to actually be poorly thought out in terms of execution (i.e., you could get Zaeed to have a sort of epiphany on his actions) but I like the idea of it. Asking someone to compromise their principles for the 'greater good' I think is an interesting subject, and I would hope a serious thing to think about.

In short; I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. I think if people's responses are that they feel guilty about their decision but think they made the right decision regardless, then I think it actually backs up the argument of the OP too.

Modifié par Arijharn, 13 mai 2011 - 02:02 .

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm certain the alien species would agree, and be happy enough to allow humanity continue making sacrificies as Shepard proved they were willing to do, back when Shepard did an incredibly risky, non-sensible thing to do which they now recognize how non-sensible it was with the entire galaxy at stake.

Yes, Shepard's non-sensibility worked in their favor... but it doesn't lead to encouraging a repeat and return to non-sensibility. Especially not when Shepard's helpfully proved that Humanity is willing to take sacrifices for the galactic good, which would not be served in an overly risky counterattack for the sake of just a few billion people.

If I followed that, Dean_the_Young, you're saying Shep was a fool to weaken the Alliance fleet for the sake of the Council because the other species won't return the favor.

I hardly think eight Alliance cruisers will make that much difference.

I'd even argue that the Destiny Ascension alone is worth eight Alliance cruisers.

Using realpolitik, a coalition of species with fleets working together on a common plan offers the best chance of Organic survival. If such a coalition is not possible, then Humanity is on its own, and the other races will fall one by one also.

So why go the "alone" route before even finding out if a coalition is possible?

[Arijharn]

The End of ME3: Shephard talk-jitsu's Harbinger out of the current Extinction Cycle.

Yep, you heard it here first folks.

[Seboist]

Arijharn wrote...

The End of ME3: Shephard talk-jitsu's Harbinger out of the current Extinction Cycle.

Yep, you heard it here first folks.

The whole talk-jutsu nonsense dumbs down hard choices to a Star Wars esque jedi mind trick level.

Shepard with his talk-jutsu turned a lifelong unrepentant criminal like Helena Blake into a social worker....... seriously? LOL

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I went back and re-did ME1 partially to avoid that by not talk-justsuing here.

Did you talk-jutsu Saren into killing himself?

[aimlessgun]

Talk-justu is a mixed bag. Helena Blake is a pretty ridiculous example. In Tali's LM it worked for me, as long as you talk to the Admirals. The fact that it succeeds without talking to the admirals and not knowing the politics is pretty fail though.

Thompson family wrote...

I don't buy the idea that being a saint would work any better than hardheaded renegade realpolitik.

That's your preogative, aimlessgun, but there's a difference between being a saint and simply being trustworthy. Giving people some basis to trust you is also a vital component to realpolitik. Chancellor Bismarck, for instance, made a friend and ally of Austria-Hungary after Prussia whipped them in the Seven Weeks War. Similarly, Shep should use all the force needed -- and stop.

The secret of politics is twofold: To make friends faster than you can make enemies, and to never make an open enemy of someone you can't crush.

"Help. I need you to attack these invincible machines in a seemingly hopeless counter-attack to save my home planet."

(Ponders the fact that the person making the plea was willing to make a firey sacrifice of a whole refinery crew just to gain the loyalty of a merc for one mission.)

"No, we think not. We'll come up with our own plan. Thanks for your time."

It depends on who you're talking to. There's an equal chance that they don't give two figs for some random workers. There's a chance that it could be viewed as a good thing: you didn't let sentiment for human lives get in the way of saving the galaxy. They know you won't throw away their fleets just to save some inconsequential humans: you're all about taking down the Reapers.

[Reapinger]

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I went back and re-did ME1 partially to avoid that by not talk-justsuing here.

Did you talk-jutsu Saren into killing himself?

Poor Saren, he was a good dood on da inside. D: 

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...
One word: metagaming.

Using knowledge that your character, in the game, would not have.

Which defeats the point of an RPG.

[Arijharn]

I actually think Talk-jitsuing Saren to be a plausible usage of talk-jitsu. Helena Blake considerably less so though.

I can't remember the thrust of the talk-jitsu grandmaster level against Saren but from what I recall it essentially comes down to this against Saren: "The only reason why you think it's inevitable is because you allowed Sovereign to get this far. If it's inevitable than its because your actions have made it inevitable. Sovereign, the Reapers, couldn't have done it without you, so it's because of you that they've come this far, therefore without your actions Sovereign could do nothing more than scream in impotent rage."

[InvincibleHero]

You forgot to mention another reward the actual pargon and rengade points themselves.

I think it makes little sense you could talk Zaeed down. He should have stormed off after Vido right away while Shepard rescues the workers. You would be sans back-up and maybe a reunite at the end since he was still paid to work with you and professional enough to carry out his end. Loyal no way.

I think some paragon decisions should have sleep lost over them. If you saved Fist was that the right thing? Will I get Balak before he kills again? Yes immediately their feelings of satisfaction and with back slapping done by bystanders, Hackett etc after their paragon saves are feel good in the short-term. If Shep is reflective though might make him/her lose sleep.

Letting Wrex kill Fist was a no-brainer to me paragon or not. I won't lose any sleep over that degenerate and neither would my renegade Shepards. They get peace of mind though whether that is equivalent to clean conscience or morality is up to everyone to determine.

I have distaste for some of the actions that BW slots to earn ren points. So I just don't do them. Pargons have the far easier path.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 13 mai 2011 - 02:57 .

[Thompson family]

aimlessgun wrote...


It depends on who you're talking to. There's an equal chance that they don't give two figs for some random workers. There's a chance that it could be viewed as a good thing: you didn't let sentiment for human lives get in the way of saving the galaxy. They know you won't throw away their fleets just to save some inconsequential humans: you're all about taking down the Reapers.

There's an "equal chance" that they'd see an placation of a berzerk mercenary who wants to incinerate an old enemy at the expense of a number of other lives and destruction of a refining facility -- as long as we're just adding up costs -- as the acts of a responsible commander.

Did I get that right?

[Arijharn]

You don't 'let' Wrex kill Fist iirc. Wrex just wrecks Fist by fisting him full of shotgun blast. Okay, I admit it, I was actually trying a bit too hard on that one.

Regardless, Wrex just sort of 'auto-kills' him. Which is part n parcel really. Life as a commodity seems considerably less than what we're used too. The real awesome thing imo is if you kill Fist regardless and then meet up with Wrex, who then pays you as 'one professional to another.'

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Metagaming:

Using knowledge that your character, in the game, would not have.

Which defeats the point of an RPG.

You... you get it! I'm so relieved! You see, when you use information your character did not have to justify making a decision you are metagaming. In this context, where we are debating the cost of choices as they relate to Shepard as a person metagaming undermines the entire argument. You look like a fool when you do that, so don't do it.

Shepard didn't know that sacrificing ships to save the Council would "only" result in 8 cruisers lost. He didn't even know that doing so would still allow him to stop Sovereign (not that he knew he could stop Sovereign at all). So one could easily argue that Shepard took a very dangerous and reckless risk when he saved the Council.

Interesting. So "knowing" Renegades will get ripped punishes you for choices you'd prefer your character to make.

I do have a better understanding of your objection.