131 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Arijharn wrote...

I actually think Talk-jitsuing Saren to be a plausible usage of talk-jitsu. Helena Blake considerably less so though.

I can't remember the thrust of the talk-jitsu grandmaster level against Saren but from what I recall it essentially comes down to this against Saren: "The only reason why you think it's inevitable is because you allowed Sovereign to get this far. If it's inevitable than its because your actions have made it inevitable. Sovereign, the Reapers, couldn't have done it without you, so it's because of you that they've come this far, therefore without your actions Sovereign could do nothing more than scream in impotent rage."

The whole Saren talk-jutsu thing comes off as extremely moronic considering it happens in the middle of a major battle and right after he threw a friggin grenade at Shepard.

For as moronic as the Helena Blake talk-jutsu is, it was at least a discussion in a neutral setting.

[Golden Owl]

Edit...

Modifié par Golden Owl, 13 mai 2011 - 03:11 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

In Tali's LM when you lie to the admiralty and they throughout her chargers Xen emails you later and basically thanks you for keeping your mouth shut but says she won't give further cooperation with you on the matter suggesting she's keeping all the goodies for herself.

[Arijharn]

But talk-jitsuing Saren after he threw a grenade at him is the point I think to accentuate the sense of urgency, if that makes sense. It's just a couple of sentences, it's not as if he's reciting Leo's War and Peace or even Catch-22.

I think the point is that you can avoid an 'unnecessary' firefight if you can.

Modifié par Arijharn, 13 mai 2011 - 03:13 .

[aimlessgun]

Thompson family wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...


It depends on who you're talking to. There's an equal chance that they don't give two figs for some random workers. There's a chance that it could be viewed as a good thing: you didn't let sentiment for human lives get in the way of saving the galaxy. They know you won't throw away their fleets just to save some inconsequential humans: you're all about taking down the Reapers.

There's an "equal chance" that they'd see an placation of a berzerk mercenary who wants to incinerate an old enemy at the expense of a number of other lives and destruction of a refining facility -- as long as we're just adding up costs -- as the acts of a responsible commander.

Did I get that right?

The workers are small people. The politicians you're talking to are big people, and care naught for the small. You went in and accomplished the mission, and nobody they give a damn about died except Vido, who was supposed to.

In any case, all they're going to know is that a refinery on Zorya exploded, and Vido Santiago is missing, presumed dead. And maybe there's a whisper that you were involved because of your association with Zaeed. But nothing more. So the discussion is moot

Modifié par aimlessgun, 13 mai 2011 - 03:12 .

[InvincibleHero]

Arijharn wrote...

You don't 'let' Wrex kill Fist iirc. Wrex just wrecks Fist by fisting him full of shotgun blast. Okay, I admit it, I was actually trying a bit too hard on that one.

Regardless, Wrex just sort of 'auto-kills' him. Which is part n parcel really. Life as a commodity seems considerably less than what we're used too. The real awesome thing imo is if you kill Fist regardless and then meet up with Wrex, who then pays you as 'one professional to another.'

Did not know that he pays you. Of course to fight you way through Cora's den without Wrex might be brutal in itself. Does he still offer to join?

[Arijharn]

Yeah, you can recruit him afterwards and he pays you for the privilege essentially. He does give his reasonings (not that he really needs them imo, he is Wrex, and Wrex only has a single point less on the bromance meter than Garrus, in my play-throughs at least)

[InvincibleHero]

aimlessgun wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...


It depends on who you're talking to. There's an equal chance that they don't give two figs for some random workers. There's a chance that it could be viewed as a good thing: you didn't let sentiment for human lives get in the way of saving the galaxy. They know you won't throw away their fleets just to save some inconsequential humans: you're all about taking down the Reapers.

There's an "equal chance" that they'd see an placation of a berzerk mercenary who wants to incinerate an old enemy at the expense of a number of other lives and destruction of a refining facility -- as long as we're just adding up costs -- as the acts of a responsible commander.

Did I get that right?

The workers are small people. The politicians you're talking to are big people, and care naught for the small. You went in and accomplished the mission, and nobody they give a damn about died except Vido, who was supposed to.

In any case, all they're going to know is that a refinery on Zorya exploded, and Vido Santiago is missing, presumed dead. And maybe there's a whisper that you were involved because of your association with Zaeed. But nothing more. So the discussion is moot

They couldn't prove anything through lack of evidence. Shooting and volatile substances at a refinery do not make a good recipe. Besides they never make Shepard pay for broken things. A refinery here, a secret research facility or two or three, and a planet here and there it's all good as the end justfies the means.

[AK404]

Of course, the results of Arrival pretty much put an end to any clean conscience Shep might have kept throughout the two games...

[InvincibleHero]

AK404 wrote...

Of course, the results of Arrival pretty much put an end to any clean conscience Shep might have kept throughout the two games...

Something that is unavoidable shouldn't weigh that heavily on the mind. if I had to push a button to save the rest of the Earth at a cost of 300,000 I'd press it right away. We're talking a small percentatge vs hundreds of billions of other lifeforms that would be reaped. A pittance to pay really.

[Thompson family]

aimlessgun wrote...

The workers are small people. The politicians you're talking to are big people, and care naught for the small. You went in and [b]accomplished the mission[/b [emphasis added]], and nobody they give a damn about died except Vido, who was supposed to.

But the did not accomplish the mission.

The owners of the refinery did not hire Zaeed to kill Vido. They hired a mercenary to take back a refinery, including the workers.

Vido convinced Shep and a squadmate to assist him to kill Vido under false pretenses. That alone should have angered Shepard, who had been played for a fool.

No, it would not have an equal chance of impressing anyone that Zaeed had broken his agreement to liberate the refinery and that Shep had allowed him/herself to be duped.

[Seboist]

Thompson family wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

The workers are small people. The politicians you're talking to are big people, and care naught for the small. You went in and [b]accomplished the mission[/b [emphasis added]], and nobody they give a damn about died except Vido, who was supposed to.

But the did not accomplish the mission.

The owners of the refinery did not hire Zaeed to kill Vido. They hired a mercenary to take back a refinery, including the workers.

Vido convinced Shep and a squadmate to assist him to kill Vido under false pretenses. That alone should have angered Shepard, who had been played for a fool.

No, it would not have an equal chance of impressing anyone that Zaeed had broken his agreement to liberate the refinery and that Shep had allowed him/herself to be duped.

But he DOES take back the refinery. They just need lots of glue to put it back together again.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Come to think of it, when I went back and redid ME1 I avoided a lot of talk-jutsu.

I didn't try to convince Saren. I didn't try to convince Ethan Jeong. I didn't try to convince Wrex. I didn't try to convince Helena Blake. I did convince Major Kyle, but then I let the fight happen anyway.

I didn't try to talk-jutsu Lt. Charn either. I did convince the biotic terrorists. I convinced Toombs too, ironic considering in my original import I didn't bother.

With my canon Shep her using talk-jutsu depends on the situation. She's not going to talk-jutsu Helena Blake into becoming a social worker, instead she's going to arrest her and if she resists she getting a cap busted in her ass.... which is exactly what happened.

Things were different with Ethan Jeong, she didn't want to kill him in front of a bunch traumatized civilians and she didn't want the company's wrath to come down on them. So she talk-jutsus her way out of it.

[aimlessgun]

Thompson family wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

The workers are small people. The politicians you're talking to are big people, and care naught for the small. You went in and [b]accomplished the mission[/b [emphasis added]], and nobody they give a damn about died except Vido, who was supposed to.

But the did not accomplish the mission.

The owners of the refinery did not hire Zaeed to kill Vido. They hired a mercenary to take back a refinery, including the workers.

Vido convinced Shep and a squadmate to assist him to kill Vido under false pretenses. That alone should have angered Shepard, who had been played for a fool.

No, it would not have an equal chance of impressing anyone that Zaeed had broken his agreement to liberate the refinery and that Shep had allowed him/herself to be duped.

Waaait. Now I'm totally confused. I never, ever, got the impression that Zaeed had been hired to liberate this refinery. I always thought we were there to kill Vido. That was the mission. The refinery was just where Vido happened to be.

[Seboist]

aimlessgun wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

The workers are small people. The politicians you're talking to are big people, and care naught for the small. You went in and [b]accomplished the mission[/b [emphasis added]], and nobody they give a damn about died except Vido, who was supposed to.

But the did not accomplish the mission.

The owners of the refinery did not hire Zaeed to kill Vido. They hired a mercenary to take back a refinery, including the workers.

Vido convinced Shep and a squadmate to assist him to kill Vido under false pretenses. That alone should have angered Shepard, who had been played for a fool.

No, it would not have an equal chance of impressing anyone that Zaeed had broken his agreement to liberate the refinery and that Shep had allowed him/herself to be duped.

Waaait. Now I'm totally confused. I never, ever, got the impression that Zaeed had been hired to liberate this refinery. I always thought we were there to kill Vido. That was the mission. The refinery was just where Vido happened to be.

Officially Zaeed was hired to liberate the refinery but he had ulterior motives. =)

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, Elfan-Ashland hired Zaeed to liberate the refinery. At some point, Zaeed learned that Vido was running the place and this became his real reason for doing the job. It isn't apparent if this was before or after he accepted the contract though.

In any case, it's irrelevant as far as my Shepard is concerned. He doesn't care about Zaeed's contract with another party, he only cares about Zaeed's 'contract' with him. He makes sure they kill Vido because he wants Zaeed on his side and dedicated to the mission.

My Shepard just went along with what her man wanted and let him kill the bastard.

[aimlessgun]

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, Elfan-Ashland hired Zaeed to liberate the refinery. At some point, Zaeed learned that Vido was running the place and this became his real reason for doing the job. It isn't apparent if this was before or after he accepted the contract though.

In any case, it's irrelevant as far as my Shepard is concerned. He doesn't care about Zaeed's contract with another party, he only cares about Zaeed's 'contract' with him. He makes sure they kill Vido because he wants Zaeed on his side and dedicated to the mission.

My Shepard just went along with what her man wanted and let him kill the bastard.

  I don't know how I missed that he never mentions Vido until you land on Zorya. Probably because it just all seemed the same to my Shep.

Z: "I need you to come with me and kill some mercs."
S: "Sure, whatever."

*later*

Z: "Oh, btw one of the mercs is some guy I've hated for 20 years."
S: "Sooo...the mission parameters are unchanged then? We're still killing all the mercs?"
Z: "Yah, pretty much."

Modifié par aimlessgun, 13 mai 2011 - 06:07 .

[Seboist]

aimlessgun wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, Elfan-Ashland hired Zaeed to liberate the refinery. At some point, Zaeed learned that Vido was running the place and this became his real reason for doing the job. It isn't apparent if this was before or after he accepted the contract though.

In any case, it's irrelevant as far as my Shepard is concerned. He doesn't care about Zaeed's contract with another party, he only cares about Zaeed's 'contract' with him. He makes sure they kill Vido because he wants Zaeed on his side and dedicated to the mission.

My Shepard just went along with what her man wanted and let him kill the bastard.

  I don't know how I missed that he never mentions Vido until you land on Zorya. Probably because it just all seemed the same to my Shep.

Z: "I need you to come with me and kill some mercs."
S: "Sure, whatever."

*later*

Z: "Oh, btw one of the mercs is some guy I've hated for 20 years."
S: "Sooo...the mission parameters are unchanged then? We're still killing all the mercs?"
Z: "Yah, pretty much."

I had reservations about doing the renegade option in BDTS but not in this mission. I guess Zaeed pulled some talk-jutsu on my femshep.

Modifié par Seboist, 13 mai 2011 - 06:31 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Really? It's a lot of fun to shoot the hostage.

Shepard: "Smart move takin' a hostage. A Spectre does whatever they have to to get the job done."

Vasir: "That's right, we do."

Shepard: "...but you're forgetting something, Vasir; I was a Spectre too!"

Shamefully, this is a guilty pleasure.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Really? It's a lot of fun to shoot the hostage.

Shepard: "Smart move takin' a hostage. A Spectre does whatever they have to to get the job done."

Vasir: "That's right, we do."

Shepard: "...but you're forgetting something, Vasir; I was a Spectre too!"

Uh, I was refering to Bringing down the sky not LOTSB and yeah shooting the hostage there is fun. =)

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Shepard didn't know that sacrificing ships to save the Council would "only" result in 8 cruisers lost. He didn't even know that doing so would still allow him to stop Sovereign (not that he knew he could stop Sovereign at all). So one could easily argue that Shepard took a very dangerous and reckless risk when he saved the Council.

I don't think that point is up for arguement if the Reapers were taken seriously.  It was bold, reckless, "ideal," and can only be justified by its sucess when considering the threat of Sovereign/the Reapers. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 mai 2011 - 06:41 .

[Seboist]

Sacrificing the council is the best decision from the POV of my Shep and myself.

The save the council decision doesn't even make sense considering Shepard risked everything when she stormed off solo to Ilos with the belief the galaxy's survival was at stake. So, her sacrificing Alliance ships to save the Council comes off to me as suggesting she doesn't think Sovereign is that big of a deal.