191 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

I thought they mostly kept the engine and just tweaked it? A complete overhaul? I never heard that before.

Same engine, they just had to overhaul the face morph system.

In my opinion. Your mileage may vary. Speaking of that, where are all the biodrone DA2 defenders? I would have thought they'd be all over me and Sab and anyone daring to say the game wasn't the most amibitous thing since the moon landing?

You're hilarious.

[Sabriana]

Erynnar, shhh. Don't tell no sekkrits!!! Remember the prime directive.

Ambition is fine. Over-ambition never ends well. There was no need to jerk a franchise into a direction that makes it so far removed from its predecessor. If they left intact what was not broken, they could have concentrated on the story. Make it a DA story and keep it within the universe. The "vision" was too far away from the DA base.

It wasn't bad (except mageHawke, imo. Oh my stars, that almost made me quit playing right then and there), but it's not the DA world as it was build by the devs with the base game, imo. It didn't need a major overhaul. I'm sorry, but for me, the game-world of DA 2 was severly lacking. The magic of bioware was there. And for me, that is the only thing that makes the game merely "meh" instead of utterly forgettable.

Modifié par Sabriana, 13 mai 2011 - 08:29 .

[TheTranzor]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Speaking of that, where are all the biodrone DA2 defenders? I would have thought they'd be all over me and Sab and anyone daring to say the game wasn't the most amibitous thing since the moon landing?

The moon landing wasn't ambitious... heck, it's the closest thing to Earth.  Real ambition would have been landing on Uranus. 



Besides, the moon landing was done on a sound stage by special effects experts.  I know it's true, I read it on "TeH interwebs".

[GammaRayJim]

Sabriana wrote...



It wasn't bad (except mageHawke, imo. Oh my stars, that almost made me quit playing right then and there), but it's not the DA world as it was build by the devs with the base game, imo. It didn't need a major overhaul. I'm sorry, but for me, the game-world of DA 2 was severly lacking. The magic of bioware was there. And for me, that is the only thing that makes the game merely "meh" instead of utterly forgettable.

No offense I am not trying to pick a fight I am seriously asking "the magic of bioware was there" what is that and how did it exhibit itself? I did not like the game either and I am wondering what you considered the "magic of bioware" in this game because I didn't see it. 

[erynnar]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

erynnar wrote...

[*bandwagson goes by and I join in*...anyone for a roll in the hay? 

@Angry...too true. It isn't awful...it is just, meh.

"Roll, Roll, Roll in Ze hay...."

"Zank you Doctor..."

WOOT! Young Frankenstein for the win!

[Sabriana]

Jim, it exhibited itself sporadically, but it was there. The companions were excellent (with a notable exception) but there was not enough of it. It always felt lacking. It was cut short to a point that made them flat in too many instances, imo.

Act II was not bad. Most of the best stuff was in that act. It could've used more internal consistency, more interaction, better quests, but it was not bad overall. Unfortunately, it was veined through with the inadequacies that made the game average, but it managed to let the good parts shine.

Hawke met Meredith and Orsino, but it was not enough. However, what was shown was good. As with the companions, it was far too short. It simply felt flat. And then act III happened. I've never been so disappointed in a game before, save for "The Indigo Prophesies", "NWN 2" and "FO 3 (without the DLC which I don't have, because I don't buy DLC on principle, especially when they change the base game).

[CaptainBlackGold]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

It wasn't bad (except mageHawke, imo. Oh my stars, that almost made me quit playing right then and there), but it's not the DA world as it was build by the devs with the base game, imo. It didn't need a major overhaul. I'm sorry, but for me, the game-world of DA 2 was severly lacking. The magic of bioware was there. And for me, that is the only thing that makes the game merely "meh" instead of utterly forgettable.

No offense I am not trying to pick a fight I am seriously asking "the magic of bioware was there" what is that and how did it exhibit itself? I did not like the game either and I am wondering what you considered the "magic of bioware" in this game because I didn't see it. 

Well, I am not Sabrina (I know because I just checked) and she is able to articulately answer your question - but may I butt in with my own opinion?

Companion banter was often hilarious, some quests were touching (Hawke's "Mummy"), while others were touching and hilarious (Aveline's romance). All of Varric's dialogue was great - and maybe because I am a Torchwood fan, I loved Merril's voice acting (even if I found her character in need of some serious psychotherapy - but that Welsh accent - not to be condescening or anything but I've always thought the Welsh do not speak when they talk but sing).

Furthermore I felt that a lot of the cut-scenes showed real emotional power at times - what they did with the facial animations and reactions was very promising as it helped better define certain characters.

Over all I thought there was a real story in this game - an interesting, even gripping story that the writers wanted to tell but were prevented from developing and telling for reasons we do not know.

Sabrina of course will have her own insights -

Edit -ninja'd by Sabrina - great analysis by the way...

Modifié par CaptainBlackGold, 13 mai 2011 - 09:11 .

[Gavinthelocust]

Origins wasn't ambitious, it was stuck in the same fantasy route that every single fantasy game falls in. DA2 did the same, once we get a fantasy game that Tolkein hasn't managed to touch in some way I'll be pleased.

[erynnar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

I thought they mostly kept the engine and just tweaked it? A complete overhaul? I never heard that before.

Same engine, they just had to overhaul the face morph system.

In my opinion. Your mileage may vary. Speaking of that, where are all the biodrone DA2 defenders? I would have thought they'd be all over me and Sab and anyone daring to say the game wasn't the most amibitous thing since the moon landing?

You're hilarious.

Both of you are just too cute. Seriously, Jabba, you have a good premise and then you go and do trollish comments. It doesn't help your stance. It hurts it. I happen to agree with your thread, but that is really not helping.

Dave, you either. Has there been whining? Sure. Is there always whining? Of course there is. But not all that are posted on the BSN are ranting or whining. It has been delightful company who agrees to disagree having reasoned thoughts and debates alongside some of the whining. Care to contribute to the constructive lively debate instead of painting everyone who may have legitmate complaints or even  some thoughts on the game with a big brush labled "whiner?"  Yeah, I have read some of your more eloquent posts, I know you have it in you.

[erynnar]

What CaptBlack and Sabi said.

[CaptainBlackGold]

erynnar wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

erynnar wrote...

[*bandwagson goes by and I join in*...anyone for a roll in the hay? 

@Angry...too true. It isn't awful...it is just, meh.

"Roll, Roll, Roll in Ze hay...."

"Zank you Doctor..."

WOOT! Young Frankenstein for the win!

Thank you, thank you THANK YOU! I thought that comment had slid right by everyone.

It is kind of sad to sit here laughing at my own jokes - even lame ones. So +100 for being kind enough to notice - much appreciated.

[erynnar]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Origins wasn't ambitious, it was stuck in the same fantasy route that every single fantasy game falls in. DA2 did the same, once we get a fantasy game that Tolkein hasn't managed to touch in some way I'll be pleased.

I never get tired of a well told story. So kill the epic bad guy save the world, rags to riches, political intrigue, mystery... doesn't matter. If it's told well, then it's a win. Maybe you don't feel the same way. Fine. There are plenty of games out there without a Tolkien themed story. Please go find them.

DAO was ambitious. It took years to create. The attention to detail was simply amazing. Great writing, great characters and interaction with same. Vast areas to play, etc. Whether you liked the theme of the story, is irrelevent to it's ambition. DAO had a lot of heart, and love put into it, as well as ambition. It shows, it has a soul. Whether the story was boring to you.

DA2 had no soul. It is a meh magical shooter with a disjointed story. Does that mean it wouldn't have had a soul if it had more time? Hard to say, but I go with no. I believe the people who worked on it, loved it. I believe they were ambitious, and many somethings happened to prevent DA2's full potential from blooming in all of its glory. Regardless of whether I liked the story (ie plural, there were really three great stories in the game). 

And just for the record, I did like the story ideas in DA2 very much. I just think they were implemented poorly.

[erynnar]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

erynnar wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

erynnar wrote...

[*bandwagson goes by and I join in*...anyone for a roll in the hay? 

@Angry...too true. It isn't awful...it is just, meh.

"Roll, Roll, Roll in Ze hay...."

"Zank you Doctor..."

WOOT! Young Frankenstein for the win!

Thank you, thank you THANK YOU! I thought that comment had slid right by everyone.

It is kind of sad to sit here laughing at my own jokes - even lame ones. So +100 for being kind enough to notice - much appreciated.

I am often the source of my own amusement....

Glad to have someone who shares my humor!

[Maverick827]

I wouldn't really call DA2 "ambitious," either, more like "about damn time."

Then again, I weigh narrative structure and characterization far above micromanaging inventory spreadsheets or whatever it was that the "old school" RPG fans believed DA2 lacked.

[Haexpane]

Maverick827 wrote...

I wouldn't really call DA2 "ambitious," either, more like "about damn time."

Then again, I weigh narrative structure and characterization far above micromanaging inventory spreadsheets or whatever it was that the "old school" RPG fans believed DA2 lacked.

Here we go again with the "spreadsheets"  accusation.  If you don't want RPG gameplay, why not just watch a movie?
There are no "inventory spreadsheets" needed for DAO, that is such a 2001 type troll bait accusation

[AngryFrozenWater]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

I thought they mostly kept the engine and just tweaked it? A complete overhaul? I never heard that before. They redid some models for elves and darkspawn (mostly to criticism from DAO fans). Well whatever the reason for it, the short development cycle kept the game from reaching its ambitions. In my opinion. Your mileage may vary. Speaking of that, where are all the biodrone DA2 defenders? I would have thought they'd be all over me and Sab and anyone daring to say the game wasn't the most amibitous thing since the moon landing?

@Jabba - you make a good point.

About the overhaul: Tweaked? No. Here's my take on it...

First of all the DA:O talent/spell trees needed to be replaced by the new branching talent/spell trees.

The talents and spells themselves were not ported directly. They were rebalanced and nearly each talent and spell got one or more upgrades. The underlying attribute system didn't make it easier to implement all that. Look at the wikia and compare what the attributes of DA:O and DA2 do (click the links). These are totally different. For an example: In DA:O dual weapons and bows needed to work with the main stats of both warriors and rogues.

The stats have also an impact on talents and spells. And because the talents and spells needed to be changed anyway, it would be easier to simply the attributes as well. It is no coincidence that dual wielding and archery were removed from the warrior. That allowed less complex formulas for normal damage calculations, critical chance, and critical damage (to name a few), because dual wielding and archery only had to work with dexterity and cunning. The overhaul (called refactoring by software engineers) most likely became easier, more cost effective and cut the development time, because of that. The effect was that attribute usage became more transparent, at the cost of less choice (i.e. no dual weapons and bows for warriors).

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 mai 2011 - 09:52 .

[Zanallen]

erynnar wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I'd say completely overhauling the graphics engine, changing the character models, overhauling the combat, skills and relationship system all with a paltry 18 month development cycle while also creating a new story with new characters is pretty damn ambitious.

Or foolish.  They didnt' have to overhaul or do a 180.

Your opinion on how successful they were has no real bearing on how ambitious the project was. That is what this thread is about, yes? Claiming that DA2 was not ambitious?

[Haexpane]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

 
About the overhaul: Tweaked? No. Here's my take on it...

First of all the DA:O talent/spell trees needed to be replaced by the new branching talent/spell trees.

The talents and spells themselves were not ported directly. They were rebalanced and nearly each talent and spell got one or more upgrades. The underlying attribute system didn't make it easier to implement all that. Look at the wikia and compare what the attributes of DA:O and DA2 do. These are totally different. For an example: In DA:O dual weapons and bows needed to work with the main stats of both warriors and rogues.

The stats have also an impact on talents and spells. And because the talents and spells needed to be changed anyway, it would be easier to simply the attributes as well. It is no coincidence that dual wielding and archery were removed from the warrior. That allowed less complex formulas for normal damage calculations, critical chance, and critical damage (to name a few), because dual wielding and archery only had to work with dexterity and cunning. The overhaul (called refactoring by software engineers) most likely became easier, more cost effective and cut the development time, because of that. The effect was that attribute usage became more transparent, at the cost of less choice.

Absolutely, this was just more gutting that had corporate spin to make it sound better "streamlining".

Although it's hard to fault a software company for trying to make their code more simple and easier to manage.

Unfortunately a by product is that gameplay is more shallow and linear.

[Maverick827]

Haexpane wrote...

Here we go again with the "spreadsheets"  accusation.  If you don't want RPG gameplay, why not just watch a movie?
There are no "inventory spreadsheets" needed for DAO, that is such a 2001 type troll bait accusation

What do you have against spreadsheets?!

[AngryFrozenWater]

Haexpane wrote...

Absolutely, this was just more gutting that had corporate spin to make it sound better "streamlining".

Although it's hard to fault a software company for trying to make their code more simple and easier to manage.

Unfortunately a by product is that gameplay is more shallow and linear.

That's true. And I also have a bit of a problem with the new trees aswell. Follow the link in my sig to find out why.

[aduellist]

Maverick827 wrote...

I wouldn't really call DA2 "ambitious," either, more like "about damn time."

Then again, I weigh narrative structure and characterization far above micromanaging inventory spreadsheets or whatever it was that the "old school" RPG fans believed DA2 lacked.

And yet characterization and narrative structure were both sorely lacking in DA2.  Severely restricted interaction with companions, gaping plot holes, and a story structure (what little structure there is) that left me completely "meh" at the end.  I would have preferred a third option at the end:

To Anders:  You're a whackjob terrorist. (stabby-stab)

To Orsino:  You have the spine of a jellyfish and the emotional stability of a six year old.  (b**tch slap)

To Meredith: You need a nicely tailored coat , with fashionalbe six-foot wraparound sleeves. (punch in nose)

To Cullen:  Call me when this is over so I can pick up the pieces left from Kiddies' Playtime. (stalk away)

And the only spreadsheet I ever used in DA:O was one to tell me what gift went to whom.  So there!

Modifié par aduellist, 13 mai 2011 - 10:33 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maverick827 wrote...

I wouldn't really call DA2 "ambitious," either, more like "about damn time."

Then again, I weigh narrative structure and characterization far above micromanaging inventory spreadsheets or whatever it was that the "old school" RPG fans believed DA2 lacked.

Considering DA2 had neither I guess you were left with nothing then.

[erynnar]

Zanallen wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I'd say completely overhauling the graphics engine, changing the character models, overhauling the combat, skills and relationship system all with a paltry 18 month development cycle while also creating a new story with new characters is pretty damn ambitious.

Or foolish.  They didnt' have to overhaul or do a 180.

Your opinion on how successful they were has no real bearing on how ambitious the project was. That is what this thread is about, yes? Claiming that DA2 was not ambitious?

sorry I am very confused, was that directed at me?