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[erynnar]

aduellist wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

I wouldn't really call DA2 "ambitious," either, more like "about damn time."

Then
again, I weigh narrative structure and characterization far above
micromanaging inventory spreadsheets or whatever it was that the "old
school" RPG fans believed DA2 lacked.

And yet
characterization and narrative structure were both sorely lacking in
DA2.  Severely restricted interaction with companions, gaping plot
holes, and a story structure (what little structure there is) that left
me completely "meh" at the end.  I would have preferred a third option
at the end:

To Anders:  You're a whackjob terrorist. (stabby-stab)

To Orsino:  You have the spine of a jellyfish and the emotional stability of a six year old.  (b**tch slap)

To Meredith: You need a nicely tailored coat , with fashionalbe six-foot wraparound sleeves. (punch in nose)

To Cullen:  Call me when this is over so I can pick up the pieces left from Kiddies' Playtime. (stalk away)

And the only spreadsheet I ever used in DA:O was one to tell me what gift went to whom.  So there! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

This^

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

I wouldn't really call DA2 "ambitious," either, more like "about damn time."

Then again, I weigh narrative structure and characterization far above micromanaging inventory spreadsheets or whatever it was that the "old school" RPG fans believed DA2 lacked.

Considering DA2 had neither I guess you were left with nothing then.

And This^

[Maverick827]

aduellist wrote...

And yet characterization and narrative structure were both sorely lacking in DA2.

Just because you weren't inducted into a secret order from humble beginnings by an aging mentor to fight and ancient evil doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative structure, and just because you couldn't ask Leliana about being a Bard one-hundred times in camp doesn't mean there wasn't characterization.

gaping plot holes

To what plot holes are you referring?  And please don't say "templars don't figure out if you're a mage" or "I beheaded Leliana."

And please, no more comments from the peanut gallery. 

[aduellist]

Maverick827 wrote...

aduellist wrote...

And yet characterization and narrative structure were both sorely lacking in DA2.

Just because you weren't inducted into a secret order from humble beginnings by an aging mentor to fight and ancient evil doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative structure, and just because you couldn't ask Leliana about being a Bard one-hundred times in camp doesn't mean there wasn't characterization.

gaping plot holes

To what plot holes are you referring?  And please don't say "templars don't figure out if you're a mage" or "I beheaded Leliana."

And please, no more comments from the peanut gallery. 

Funny, but I thought that had all been gone over ad nauseum.  Indeed, had you bothered reading even this short thread in its entirety, you would have seen this, which I posted on page 1:

aduellist wrote...

I'd say the concept was ambitious, but
the execution was appalling. John Walker summed it up nicely in his
Rock, Paper, Shotgun analysis:

The idea is, and I love
this idea in concept so much, that you’re not playing as the last hero
in the land, saving the universe. You’re just some refugee, trying to
survive in a city that has no fondness for Fereldens, working you way up
through the ranks from villainy to nobility, seeing the city change
shape through time. I wish I could have played that game.

I can't put it any better than that.

You may retain your liking of the game, of course,  Never said everyone was required to agree with me.  Perhaps if you were to read some of the many threads detailing the plot holes, lack of a centralized narrative, lack of interaction with companions, etc you would then be able to discuss intelligently rather than dismissing with snide comments.

Modifié par aduellist, 13 mai 2011 - 11:32 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maverick827 wrote...

aduellist wrote...

And yet characterization and narrative structure were both sorely lacking in DA2.

Just because you weren't inducted into a secret order from humble beginnings by an aging mentor to fight and ancient evil doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative structure, and just because you couldn't ask Leliana about being a Bard one-hundred times in camp doesn't mean there wasn't characterization.

gaping plot holes

To what plot holes are you referring?  And please don't say "templars don't figure out if you're a mage" or "I beheaded Leliana."

And please, no more comments from the peanut gallery. 

Its more so the plot felt rushed due to the short dev time and the framed narrative itself. And Hawke's dialog, much like Shepard's dialog is very simplistic due to voice acting.  Act 1 being a perfect example, the whole entire act the player is led to believe the deep roads expidition will be this major point of the act, only for it to end up being 2 very small rooms that are over and done with in about 10 minutes if that.

Combine that with the massive reuse of art assests giving the "been there, done that" feeling for the entirety of the game, the massive amount of mindless fed ex type quests with zero backstory to them. The lack of customization that apparently is the "new" thing in RPG's these days and the massive retcons all over the place and you're left with a sub par, rushed game that by past Bioware standards doesn't live up to a majority of people's expectations.

None of the choices in the game really affect the outcome at all. Which was also majority disappointing. I play RPG's to have an impact on the world, and to create characters that feel like they're mine, DA2 offers none of this.

That's not even touching on the combat, which essentially wasn't very tactical even on higher difficulty levels, due to the terrible encounters among other things. (really? guys falling from the sky? really Bioware?)

But hey if those things are your cup of tea, good for you. The majority however, at least judging from most of the feedback here, were pretty disappointed. Myself included.

[1Nosphorus1]

"I believe this belongs to you"

*Hawke returns dead body*

"Oh my, I've been looking everywhere for this"

*Widow pays Hawke 1g finders fee for her husbands body*

I'm still on my 2nd playthrough, I haven't touched the game since about a week after the patch, since I refused to play it again until the main problems were sorted, but lately other games have held my attention greater.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Maverick827 wrote...

aduellist wrote...

And yet characterization and narrative structure were both sorely lacking in DA2.

Just because you weren't inducted into a secret order from humble beginnings by an aging mentor to fight and ancient evil doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative structure, and just because you couldn't ask Leliana about being a Bard one-hundred times in camp doesn't mean there wasn't characterization.

gaping plot holes

To what plot holes are you referring?  And please don't say "templars don't figure out if you're a mage" or "I beheaded Leliana."

And please, no more comments from the peanut gallery. 

The structure was disjointed, like reviews said. One moment you're trying to carve out a living for your family while the next you're trying to resolve the Qunari conflict, with the former objective being rendered largely insignificant.

That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

Leliana living despite being potentially killed is a plot hole... and a retcon, pretty much. Don't let messere Gaider's honeyed prose fool you.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 13 mai 2011 - 11:52 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

"I believe this belongs to you"

*Hawke returns dead body*

"Oh my, I've been looking everywhere for this"

*Widow pays Hawke 1g finders fee for her husbands body*

I'm still on my 2nd playthrough, I haven't touched the game since about a week after the patch, since I refused to play it again until the main problems were sorted, but lately other games have held my attention greater.

Bless my fool spirit, I never thought I'd see that again!

[aduellist]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

aduellist wrote...

And yet characterization and narrative structure were both sorely lacking in DA2.

Just because you weren't inducted into a secret order from humble beginnings by an aging mentor to fight and ancient evil doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative structure, and just because you couldn't ask Leliana about being a Bard one-hundred times in camp doesn't mean there wasn't characterization.

gaping plot holes

To what plot holes are you referring?  And please don't say "templars don't figure out if you're a mage" or "I beheaded Leliana."

And please, no more comments from the peanut gallery. 

The structure was disjointed, like reviews said. One moment you're trying to carve out a living for your family while the next you're trying to resolve the Qunari conflict, with the former objective being rendered largely insignificant.

That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

Leliana living despite being potentially killed is a plot hole... and a retcon, pretty much. Don't let messere Gaider's honeyed prose fool you.

Well said, Jabba.

Just wanted to highlight that bit because it's really important, at least to me.  I don't need to be the Last Hero.  The "refugee tries to make good in the big city" can be plenty compelling.  I don't even need a goal any more specific.  Figuring out what to do next can be lots of fun.  Unfortunately, DA2 didn't even have that.  I felt like humming "I've Been Working on the Railroad" through most of the game, since the alleged storyline took whiplash-inducing leaps without any input from Hawke whatsoever.

Modifié par aduellist, 14 mai 2011 - 12:01 .

[Abispa]

DA2 was an ambitious concept with pedestrian execution.

[Zanallen]

erynnar wrote...

sorry I am very confused, was that directed at me?

Yep. You feel that the extent of the changes was foolish. That doesn't alter how ambitious the project was. If anything, you could consider it "overambitious".

@ Auto

My definition of ambition is THE definition of ambition. They desired to hit a particular goal. A rather lofty goal considering the constraints placed on them. Most would say that they fell short of the goals they set, but that makes them no less ambitious. As for when the changes were decided upon, I don't know. However, considering that there were a number of complaints about the speed of combat in DA:O and that Laidlaw's last lead was on Jade Empire...I feel it safe to say that DA 2 was always intended to be more action oriented toward a more fast-paced, action experience.

[_Aine_]

aduellist wrote...

To Cullen:  Call me when this is over so I can pick up the pieces left from Kiddies' Playtime. (stalk away)

And the only spreadsheet I ever used in DA:O was one to tell me what gift went to whom.  So there!

Cullen: Yes, the major appeal is good looks coupled with being the only semi-mentally-stable force within 50km of Kirkwall.... I'm in.  

Spreadsheet?    This involves some sort of dedication to perfection I lack.  I am a character person, characters full of ....character and....lacking....something that involves spreadsheets. I don't ever have the best build I guess, but my characters I hope have their own agenda's, personalities etc.  It's a sickness really.  Maybe I need Cullen for emotional balance *whistles and motions for the semi-stable templar* 

[aduellist]

shantisands wrote...

aduellist wrote...

To Cullen:  Call me when this is over so I can pick up the pieces left from Kiddies' Playtime. (stalk away)

And the only spreadsheet I ever used in DA:O was one to tell me what gift went to whom.  So there!

Cullen: Yes, the major appeal is good looks coupled with being the only semi-mentally-stable force within 50km of Kirkwall.... I'm in.

Heh.  Remembering the paranoid emotional wreck I left in the Circle Tower in DA:O, Cullen being a stabilizing influence is saying quite a bit about the relative sanity of the others. 

shantisands wrote...

Spreadsheet?    This involves some sort of dedication to perfection I lack.  I am a character person, characters full of ....character and....lacking....something that involves spreadsheets. I don't ever have the best build I guess, but my characters I hope have their own agenda's, personalities etc.  It's a sickness really.  Maybe I need Cullen for emotional balance *whistles and motions for the semi-stable templar* 

Agreed there, too.  I'd rather spend my time creating a character than "optimal build".  My goal is not to beat games as efficiently as possible, but to experience through my character the worlds they provide.

As far as the gift spreadsheet, that was sheer laziness.  I found the DA:O gift system to be less than compelling and couldn't be arsed to figure it out by trial and error.

[Abispa]

I enjoyed DA:O, but I was unhappy with the pacing at times, the generic looking characters, stereotypical fantasy storyline, the micromanaging of inventories that could take up to an hour at camp, the stiff animation and slow combat, the nearly identical adventures of Wardens of different races, and the silent hero who had to stand by and watch his/her sidekick deliver the dramatic speeches.

I wasn't alone in these observations. If you don't believe me, look at some of the old forums for DA:O and it's expansions when it was still active. I'm sure Bioware was attempting to fix these problem, but they also took out all the charming little touches only RPGs can deliver (like item descriptions) and didn't take the time to fully develop the "new style."

[Cyberstrike nTo]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologe and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 14 mai 2011 - 12:37 .

[AAHook2]

When I read the hype about trading off options for the fact that the story was to take place over a span of 10 years, I was quite hopeful.
That said, I thought that it limited the ambition of the concept when you have to trade something for it.

A big epic passing of time...didn't feel like it. It had been done before. Fable and Fable 2 were based on the concept of time changing the world around you and having a symbiotic relationship with the plot.
The fact that it had been done before and arguably, better, coupled with the fact that certain aspects were to be traded in for this shift in philosophy, makes me more than hesitant to call the concept ambitious.
Speeding up combat and tweaking the art style from original to sequel in a series isn't ambitious either. It's expected. Improvement is expected.
The overall scheme and layout of the sequel didn't seem to have the drive to really improve on the original. Whether this is conscious or not doesn't matter. The result is the same,

Ambitious would be for the team to develop a sequel that adds more, while sacrificing little and executing it with the intention to go beyond what has already been established as a watermark.

I see no evidence to support that this was meant to happen with Dragon Age 2, nor did it happen.
Honestly, I would have been happy with a less ambitious concept and a more consistent approach to value, replayability and quality in the project.

Modifié par AAHook2, 14 mai 2011 - 12:36 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologe and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Which is why for an RPG this type of framed narrative is bound to fail. I never once felt connected to Hawke, because I never experienced most of what supposidly happened during the course of the game. Random people coming up to you and acting like they know you, yet you have no fricken clue who they are. 

Potion crafter/vendor: Oh hi Hawke! I'm a Lady now! I got married! Here buy some potions!
Me: er ok I have no idea who you are but hey thanks I think.

What Uncle? I have to do a year of service to gain entry into Kirkwall?
Uncle: Best I could do!
Hawke does 1 quest, that last 3 minutes, warp ahead a year automagically.

The game is ripe full of instances like this, itt's jarring, disjointed, and badly paced.

[Abispa]

@ AAHook2 -- Unfortunately, replayability is in the eye of the beholder. I thought DA:O was very good, but hardly replayable. I've played it and all of it's expansion through TWICE, and only one other time where my Warden died. And each time after the first it was incredibly painful at times.

Since DA2 has come out, I've tried TWICE to start up a new Warden to see how the save would affect DA2, but there was always a long painful quest that forced me to stop (damn that Circle). I've had several players say, "Just use the Fade skip mod!" But the fact that such a mod exists only proved my point that DA:O wasn't perfect either.

DA2, flawed as it was, was actually easier to play through multiple times for me. Ignoring the lousy level designs, only the mage storyline concerns me, since I prefer combat as a mage in this game, but the mage storyline stretches credulity to the breaking point.

[Mezinger]

You don't do ambitious in a year and half... period. L.A. Noire is 7 years in the making 1 year of which was in QA, now that's ambitious... How long was DA:O in production? Anyone? Anyone?

[SkittlesKat96]

The concept and ideas were ambitious and they wanted to try something new but rushed it in my opinion.

Also can people stop with this silly 'Bioware is mad for money' conspiracy theory/assumption?

[Melca36]

Abispa wrote...

I enjoyed DA:O, but I was unhappy with the pacing at times, the generic looking characters, stereotypical fantasy storyline, the micromanaging of inventories that could take up to an hour at camp, the stiff animation and slow combat, the nearly identical adventures of Wardens of different races, and the silent hero who had to stand by and watch his/her sidekick deliver the dramatic speeches.

I wasn't alone in these observations. If you don't believe me, look at some of the old forums for DA:O and it's expansions when it was still active. I'm sure Bioware was attempting to fix these problem, but they also took out all the charming little touches only RPGs can deliver (like item descriptions) and didn't take the time to fully develop the "new style."

No offense but some of us had no issues with the pacing of Origins. I played the game and did EVERY origin.
When I pay $$$ for a game. I WANT my money's worth.     

And I also don't need to have things handed to me, be simplied, just because some gamers do.

There mistakes were pandering to once side and trying to get to the COD crowd.

Hopefully they incorporate the best aspects of DA:2, include some elements from Origins they removed, and come up with a nice compromise.

They will probably end selling MORE when they do that.

[Woofy128]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

The concept and ideas were ambitious and they wanted to try something new but rushed it in my opinion.

Also can people stop with this silly 'Bioware is mad for money' conspiracy theory/assumption?

Certainly could've used another six months in the oven. But no guts, no glory. I'd rather they take bold risks in their design decisions than stagnate like too many RPG series do. Hopefully they'll cease to think of recycled maps as a viable time-saving measure. Everything else was pretty damn good.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Melca36 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I enjoyed DA:O, but I was unhappy with the pacing at times, the generic looking characters, stereotypical fantasy storyline, the micromanaging of inventories that could take up to an hour at camp, the stiff animation and slow combat, the nearly identical adventures of Wardens of different races, and the silent hero who had to stand by and watch his/her sidekick deliver the dramatic speeches.

I wasn't alone in these observations. If you don't believe me, look at some of the old forums for DA:O and it's expansions when it was still active. I'm sure Bioware was attempting to fix these problem, but they also took out all the charming little touches only RPGs can deliver (like item descriptions) and didn't take the time to fully develop the "new style."

No offense but some of us had no issues with the pacing of Origins. I played the game and did EVERY origin.
When I pay $$$ for a game. I WANT my money's worth.     

And I also don't need to have things handed to me, be simplied, just because some gamers do.

There mistakes were pandering to once side and trying to get to the COD crowd.

Hopefully they incorporate the best aspects of DA:2, include some elements from Origins they removed, and come up with a nice compromise.

They will probably end selling MORE when they do that.

^^^ This, I said time and time again during DA2's development, that a middle ground could be found to make both sides content. Unfortunately Bioware is on this "streamline for the lowest common denominator" kick.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologe and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Because your family's the main reason you came to Kirkwall? Because you practically meet every other inconsequential NPC and even deal with them from Act 1 to 2 ( I simply love Hubert ), except your brother/sister, which Hawke doesn't even appear to talk about anymore with his mother? Well, not much anyway.

Every thing you do at the end of a chapter is kind of a big thing. 

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 14 mai 2011 - 01:18 .

[Abispa]

Bioware needed the infusion of EA cash to release Dragon Age in the first place. While I agree that EA shouldn't FORCE an incomplete product to market, Bioware has got to learn how to make quality games on a deadline if it cannot afford to publish games on it's own.

@ Melca36 -- I don't need "simple." I was talking about pacing. It is SIMPLE to beat the Fade in the Circle, I can do it in my sleep. Just not literally, because it does put me to sleep.

EDIT: For clarity. Maybe.

Modifié par Abispa, 14 mai 2011 - 01:27 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

The concept and ideas were ambitious and they wanted to try something new but rushed it in my opinion.

Also can people stop with this silly 'Bioware is mad for money' conspiracy theory/assumption?

Nah, it's EA that is mad for money.

For me, an ambitious rushed game means developers were not able to finish things on time ( obviously ), but still made a reasonable degree of investment in their project. The game can even have a long development time and be considered 'rushed' in some areas.

This sequel, I think, lacked that necessary investment from the start for it to be considered ambitious. Even a Call of Duty game takes more time to make than Dragon Age 2 did.

imo Dragon Age 2's state has everything to do with it being rushed.