191 réponses à ce sujet

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Mezinger wrote...

You don't do ambitious in a year and half... period. L.A. Noire is 7 years in the making 1 year of which was in QA, now that's ambitious... How long was DA:O in production? Anyone? Anyone?

I remember being interested in the game years before. Like 2004, I think.

[Hatchetman77]

I think they were being too ambitious in trying to tell three stories at once.  DA2 could have just been about the Hawke family's trials and tribulations in Kirkwall. Hawke's rise to power could have been a full game and story, especially if he had various ways he could rise to power (i.e. criminal, mercenary, Robin Hood type figure etc.) and a Kirkwall that changes with your decisions.  The Qunari section would have made a great DLC and the Mage vs. Templar storyline would have been a good expansion, leading into DA3. 

[Cyberstrike nTo]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologe and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Which is why for an RPG this type of framed narrative is bound to fail. I never once felt connected to Hawke, because I never experienced most of what supposidly happened during the course of the game. Random people coming up to you and acting like they know you, yet you have no fricken clue who they are. 

Potion crafter/vendor: Oh hi Hawke! I'm a Lady now! I got married! Here buy some potions!
Me: er ok I have no idea who you are but hey thanks I think.

What Uncle? I have to do a year of service to gain entry into Kirkwall?
Uncle: Best I could do!
Hawke does 1 quest, that last 3 minutes, warp ahead a year automagically.

The game is ripe full of instances like this, itt's jarring, disjointed, and badly paced.

Actually I feel more connected to Hawke than any of my various Wardens, because of the time leaps.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologe and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Which is why for an RPG this type of framed narrative is bound to fail. I never once felt connected to Hawke, because I never experienced most of what supposidly happened during the course of the game. Random people coming up to you and acting like they know you, yet you have no fricken clue who they are. 

Potion crafter/vendor: Oh hi Hawke! I'm a Lady now! I got married! Here buy some potions!
Me: er ok I have no idea who you are but hey thanks I think.

What Uncle? I have to do a year of service to gain entry into Kirkwall?
Uncle: Best I could do!
Hawke does 1 quest, that last 3 minutes, warp ahead a year automagically.

The game is ripe full of instances like this, itt's jarring, disjointed, and badly paced.

Actually I feel more connected to Hawke than any of my various Wardens, because of the time leaps.

I don't see how you could be, considering you don't actually experience most of it.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologe and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Because your family's the main reason you came to Kirkwall? Because you practically meet every other inconsequential NPC and even deal with them from Act 1 to 2 ( I simply love Hubert ), except your brother/sister, which Hawke doesn't even appear to talk about anymore with his mother? Well, not much anyway.

Every thing you do at the end of a chapter is kind of a big thing. 

I call it life, but that is just me however.

There are what I would call chapters in my life when they ended. I was either sad or happy that ended. 

I try not to waste my time on dealing with every inconsequential person that I've met in my life I would lose what little sanity I have I left if I did.  

[Cyberstrike nTo]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologue and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Which is why for an RPG this type of framed narrative is bound to fail. I never once felt connected to Hawke, because I never experienced most of what supposidly happened during the course of the game. Random people coming up to you and acting like they know you, yet you have no fricken clue who they are. 

Potion crafter/vendor: Oh hi Hawke! I'm a Lady now! I got married! Here buy some potions!
Me: er ok I have no idea who you are but hey thanks I think.

What Uncle? I have to do a year of service to gain entry into Kirkwall?
Uncle: Best I could do!
Hawke does 1 quest, that last 3 minutes, warp ahead a year automagically.

The game is ripe full of instances like this, itt's jarring, disjointed, and badly paced.

Actually I feel more connected to Hawke than any of my various Wardens, because of the time leaps.

I don't see how you could be, considering you don't actually experience most of it.

I guess my life and worldview is different than yours and probably most people. I'm not saying it's better or worse than yours just different.

[erynnar]

Zanallen wrote...

erynnar wrote...

sorry I am very confused, was that directed at me?

Yep. You feel that the extent of the changes was foolish. That doesn't alter how ambitious the project was. If anything, you could consider it "overambitious".

@ Auto

My definition of ambition is THE definition of ambition. They desired to hit a particular goal. A rather lofty goal considering the constraints placed on them. Most would say that they fell short of the goals they set, but that makes them no less ambitious. As for when the changes were decided upon, I don't know. However, considering that there were a number of complaints about the speed of combat in DA:O and that Laidlaw's last lead was on Jade Empire...I feel it safe to say that DA 2 was always intended to be more action oriented toward a more fast-paced, action experience.

No sweetie, I said or not that they are. don't put words in my mouth. It was meant as a joke.  Though the sales would beg to differ. And those are no laughing matter.

And there was no reason for a 180 (and Laidlaw admitted it was). There was no reason for a 180 of a highly succesful successor.

There was reason to tweak what was meh (combat speed), fix what was broken, and keep doing what worked. Instead, it seems, Mr. Laidlaw wanted to remake Jade Empire in Medival drag, or ME in medieval drag. Or a hybrid of the three for consoles (he seems to like them better too, they are the platform he is most familiar with. *shrug* Pure speculation and not meant to be an insult). Maybe that was his ambition, but hardly ambitious where the sequel of DAO was concerned as a game.


Making a game that tries to be too many things for too many people, usually fail. I said usually trying to give benefit of the doubt, but off the top of my head, I can't think of a hybrid of three different genres trying to make all platforms happy, that actually was a success. But, I am tired and maybe I am not accessing one  in memory banks due to that. Again, that is hardly ambitious, it is, or seems to be rather foolish. Sale again seem to bear that out.

[Bryy_Miller]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
 BioWare took inspiration from Mass Effect. 

Your thread brought up a very complex issue about games in general, but then I got to this sentence.

And you lost all credibility. 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
 BioWare took inspiration from Mass Effect. 

Your thread brought up a very complex issue about games in general, but then I got to this sentence.

And you lost all credibility. 

How so? Voiced protagonist? Check, streamlined dialog via wheel? Check, dumbed down party customization? Check!  Story that your choices have very little impact affecting? Check.

I'd say DA2 borrows quite a bit from Mass Effect.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologue and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Which is why for an RPG this type of framed narrative is bound to fail. I never once felt connected to Hawke, because I never experienced most of what supposidly happened during the course of the game. Random people coming up to you and acting like they know you, yet you have no fricken clue who they are. 

Potion crafter/vendor: Oh hi Hawke! I'm a Lady now! I got married! Here buy some potions!
Me: er ok I have no idea who you are but hey thanks I think.

What Uncle? I have to do a year of service to gain entry into Kirkwall?
Uncle: Best I could do!
Hawke does 1 quest, that last 3 minutes, warp ahead a year automagically.

The game is ripe full of instances like this, itt's jarring, disjointed, and badly paced.

Actually I feel more connected to Hawke than any of my various Wardens, because of the time leaps.

I don't see how you could be, considering you don't actually experience most of it.

I guess my life and worldview is different than yours and probably most people. I'm not saying it's better or worse than yours just different.

That's the thing though. We're not talking about real life, as a complete game, its not very cohesive. Which tends to make for a pretty bad experience story wise in regards to RPG's.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
That's not to say I mind not having a clear objective from the start at all, but it seems that all those crucial things you've done don't carry on in the next act... not enough, at least.

And why should they?

1 year passed between the prologe and Act 1.

3 Years passed between Acts 1 and 2.

3 more years passed between acts 2 and 3.

Not much of what I did (and/or those events crucial events beyond my control) 7 years ago really doesn't have much effect my life today and what still does has less and less effect every day. Now maybe for you it does, but not for me.

That is just how my life works.  

Because your family's the main reason you came to Kirkwall? Because you practically meet every other inconsequential NPC and even deal with them from Act 1 to 2 ( I simply love Hubert ), except your brother/sister, which Hawke doesn't even appear to talk about anymore with his mother? Well, not much anyway.

Every thing you do at the end of a chapter is kind of a big thing. 

I call it life, but that is just me however.

There are what I would call chapters in my life when they ended. I was either sad or happy that ended. 

I try not to waste my time on dealing with every inconsequential person that I've met in my life I would lose what little sanity I have I left if I did.  

It was sarcasm. I do not love Hubert. My point was that you see the insignificant characters more often than the important stuff between chapters. 

[Bryy_Miller]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'd say DA2 borrows quite a bit from Mass Effect. 

I'm not saying that it didn't. 

The part that completely made me lose interest is when he said that the company ripped itself off.

BioWare has used the same format for years. I don't see them stopping anytime soon. If he had said that DA2 ripped off The Witcher/Elder Scrolls/etc., it would be different. But saying that BioWare uses the same stuff for their games is... well, yeah. Of course they do.

EDIT: It's the same as saying Disney took inspiration from their last film.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 14 mai 2011 - 02:25 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'd say DA2 borrows quite a bit from Mass Effect. 

I'm not saying that it didn't. 

The part that completely made me lose interest is when he said that the company ripped itself off.

BioWare has used the same format for years. I don't see them stopping anytime soon. If he had said that DA2 ripped off The Witcher/Elder Scrolls/etc., it would be different. But saying that BioWare uses the same stuff for their games is... well, yeah. Of course they do.

Ahh ok gotcha, makes sense, thanks for clearing that up Bryy. They've used the same format pretty much since NWN or so.  A few major plot points playable in any order/side quests sprinkled around. The difference lately being the core RPG staples are slowly being stripped away to sate the "press a button something awesome happens crowd"

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 14 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'd say DA2 borrows quite a bit from Mass Effect. 

I'm not saying that it didn't. 

The part that completely made me lose interest is when he said that the company ripped itself off.

BioWare has used the same format for years. I don't see them stopping anytime soon. If he had said that DA2 ripped off The Witcher/Elder Scrolls/etc., it would be different. But saying that BioWare uses the same stuff for their games is... well, yeah. Of course they do.

I did not say it ripped itself off. I meant it went with an already established system. That's not bad in itself, but I think Knowles explained in his blog how that could cut corners for development in this case.

I mean, there's nothing bad about using something that already works, but in this case it limits possibilities that we previously had with Origins and would normally expect from the sequel.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 14 mai 2011 - 02:30 .

[Bryy_Miller]

But as far as the actual topic is actually concerned, I think DA2 was ambitious, because ambition is not subjective. Taste is subjective. 

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
but I think Knowles explained in his blog how that could cut corners for development in this case.

Knowles didn't say anything except the game was not for him. He didn't say anything about budget. I don't understand why people are reading so far into that blog post. It makes no sense. What does it justify?

[erynnar]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'd say DA2 borrows quite a bit from Mass Effect. 

I'm not saying that it didn't. 

The part that completely made me lose interest is when he said that the company ripped itself off.

BioWare has used the same format for years. I don't see them stopping anytime soon. If he had said that DA2 ripped off The Witcher/Elder Scrolls/etc., it would be different. But saying that BioWare uses the same stuff for their games is... well, yeah. Of course they do.

I did not say it ripped itself off. I meant it went with an already established system. That's not bad in itself, but I think Knowles explained in his blog how that could cut corners for development in this case.

I mean, there's nothing bad about using something that already works, but in this case it limits possibilities that we previously had with Origins and would normally expect from the sequel.

And it seems to me that they had two formulas that worked. ME's and DA's. They are completely different. Just because one formula works for one of your genres, doesn't mean it works for all. And I really think it was a mistake to try and put ME in DA drag, as it were. 

Especially when the only reason is to cut corners and costs to push something out the door, if that was the reason.

The other reason is more horrific..for nothing? Throwing out a successful formula to slap the genre it doesn't really fit it, why?  Why do it then?

If DAO hadn't sold millions, hadn't been popular, hadn't won a GoTY, hadn't been acclaimed and had been meh..then I could understand. So please explain how it was ambitious to throw away one successful genre formula to use a different genre forumla that fits it like a bad suit of clothes.

Modifié par erynnar, 14 mai 2011 - 02:42 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

erynnar wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'd say DA2 borrows quite a bit from Mass Effect. 

I'm not saying that it didn't. 

The part that completely made me lose interest is when he said that the company ripped itself off.

BioWare has used the same format for years. I don't see them stopping anytime soon. If he had said that DA2 ripped off The Witcher/Elder Scrolls/etc., it would be different. But saying that BioWare uses the same stuff for their games is... well, yeah. Of course they do.

I did not say it ripped itself off. I meant it went with an already established system. That's not bad in itself, but I think Knowles explained in his blog how that could cut corners for development in this case.

I mean, there's nothing bad about using something that already works, but in this case it limits possibilities that we previously had with Origins and would normally expect from the sequel.

And it seems to me that they had two formulas that worked. ME's and DA's. They are completely different. Just because one formula works for one of your genres, doesn't mean it works for all. And I really think it was a mistake to try and put ME in DA drag, as it were. 

Especially when the only reason is to cut corners and costs to push something out the door, if that was the reason.

The other reason is more horrific..for nothing? Throwing out a successful formula to slap the genre it doesn't really fit it, why?  Why do it then?

If DAO hadn't sold millions, hadn't been popular, hadn't won a GoTY, hadn't been acclaimed and had been meh..then I could understand. So please explain how it was ambitious to throw away one successful genre formula to use a different genre forumla that fits it like a bad suit of clothes.

You mean me or...? I said it wasn't ambitious.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

She was asking Bryy Jabba

[neppakyo]

[

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

You mean me or...? I said it wasn't ambitious.

I lost track within the pyramid of quotes myself. Meant maybe CoS Sarah? Zan? *squints at all the posts*

[Mezinger]

Mezinger wrote...

You don't do ambitious in a year and half... period. L.A. Noire is 7 years in the making 1 year of which was in QA, now that's ambitious... How long was DA:O in production? Anyone? Anyone?

So according to Stanley Woo DA:O, depending on your definition of development, was in development for 4-7 years.

http://forums.biowar...93884&forum=135

So then they spin out a "sequel" in a year and a half... it's an obvious money grab, trying to re cash in in the long development of the original whilst streamlining the game to appeal to a wider audience...

Ambitious? come on! Perhaps you could argue that the streamlining was ambitious! LOL
 
Actually ironic really... Because the original reason for Bioware getting into bed with EA was so they'd have the resources to make blockbuster epic video games, and all evidence of what is actually happening is pointing in the opposite direction.

Modifié par Mezinger, 14 mai 2011 - 03:06 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Mezinger wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

You don't do ambitious in a year and half... period. L.A. Noire is 7 years in the making 1 year of which was in QA, now that's ambitious... How long was DA:O in production? Anyone? Anyone?

So according to Stanley Woo DA:O depending on your definition of development was in it for 4-7 years.

http://forums.biowar...93884&forum=135

So then they spin out a "sequel" in a year and a half... it's an obvious money grab, trying to re cash in in the long development of the original whilst streamlining the game to appeal to a wider audience...

Ambitious? come on! Perhaps you could argue that the streamlining was ambitious! LOL
 

IRT Orgin's dev cycle, most of that was a combination of  engine work (Eclipse where as NWN used Aurora) and Origin's itself being put on the backburner to work on other projects if I recall correctly. They were technically already some what in bed with EA since their CEO was a major part of Elevation Partners, their backers at the time. And gee I wonder how that whole Bioware being aquired by EA gig happened

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 14 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[erynnar]

ROFL sorry guys! I meant Bryy. But anyone is welcome to explain it. Because I am confused as hell if it wasn't to cut costs and speed things up.

[Mezinger]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

IRT Orgin's dev cycle, most of that was a combination of  engine work (Eclipse where as NWN used Aurora) and Origin's itself being put on the backburner to work on other projects if I recall correctly. They were technically already some what in bed with EA since their CEO was a major part of Elevation Partners, their backers at the time. And gee I wonder how that whole Bioware being aquired by EA gig happened

L.A. Noire's QA cycle was 2/3rds the length of DA2's total dev cycle... I don't care what assets you have in place if you are cranking out a game in 1.5 years it is not ambitious! NBA 2010 to NBA 2011 is not ambitious and that is essentially where they are taking the DA franchise. They said as much in the recent EA earnings report.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

I don't disagree Mez, I don't find DA2 that ambitious at all considering the rush job it suffered.