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Dragon Age 2 was not 'ambitious'.


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#151
erynnar

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Corto81 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...



I think you're confusing how many quests there are against how the PC can effect the quests, companions and the story; that is my point. ME2 was a shorter game, but the fact that DA2 shovels a ton a quest your way doesn't translate into the PC having an effect on the story by completing or making decisions during those quests, they simply are what they are.


I'll try to use an MMO analogy, people who've played both will get it (I hope).

DA:O had Everquest-type quests (mostly). Long, rewarding, meaningful. (well, the major quest with sub-quests)

DAII has WoW-type quests. No longer than 15 minutes, teleport to a place, kill some mobs, very little role-playing value, really rather meaningless quests that serve you to get levels.

Similarly, world in DA:O feels real and you're there and adventuring etc.
DAII world feels like it was built for you to quest and level in.


As a player of both Evercrack and WoW...I have to agree with this! It did feel like DA2 was made into an MMORPG like WoW or DAoC. I just needed to get to level sixty by killing boars in Elwynn Forest.:lol:

#152
Fishy

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't fall into any traps.

:blink:

I'm not suggesting that the amount of man hours is never an appropriate estimating technique... I'm suggesting that regardless of the number of bodies you can't do an ambitious game in a year and half, as some of the key time drivers over the course of the project aren't primarily influenced by the number of bodies. 

The biggest hole in my suggestion is the definition of "ambitious"... not that man hours isn't always an appropriate estimating technique, which should be obvious.

If project X takes Y years and project Z takes Y-1 years  then saying that Z required less work than X is meaningless, because you don't have any idea how much work was actually being done in both projects. That's what I am saying. We also never get the actual data. It's probably burried somewhere in the project manager's data files. That's all there is to it. It's not that hard to follow.


I don't know why you're arguing with him.He seriously don't understand how the industry work.

#153
Byth

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Tommy6860 wrote...

snip


By "pre-landsmeet" I meant all the missions that were very connected to the landsmeet(Arl mission and Alienage mission) as apposed to every single mission that takes place before the landsmeet. By ME2 surpassing DA2 in terms of choice in story I'd have to disagree, but you have given me more insight on how DA2 is always called more linear than DA:O.

Anyway, I don't want to go off topic anymore so I'll leave with this post.

#154
TheTranzor

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erynnar wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...



I think you're confusing how many quests there are against how the PC can effect the quests, companions and the story; that is my point. ME2 was a shorter game, but the fact that DA2 shovels a ton a quest your way doesn't translate into the PC having an effect on the story by completing or making decisions during those quests, they simply are what they are.


I'll try to use an MMO analogy, people who've played both will get it (I hope).

DA:O had Everquest-type quests (mostly). Long, rewarding, meaningful. (well, the major quest with sub-quests)

DAII has WoW-type quests. No longer than 15 minutes, teleport to a place, kill some mobs, very little role-playing value, really rather meaningless quests that serve you to get levels.

Similarly, world in DA:O feels real and you're there and adventuring etc.
DAII world feels like it was built for you to quest and level in.


As a player of both Evercrack and WoW...I have to agree with this! It did feel like DA2 was made into an MMORPG like WoW or DAoC. I just needed to get to level sixty by killing boars in Elwynn Forest.:lol:


Well, at least you didn't get to the locale of the quest and find out your group is 16th in line to camp the quest spawn.  Ahhh... the good ol' days of Evercrack.  Image IPB

#155
erynnar

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TheTranzor wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...



I think you're confusing how many quests there are against how the PC can effect the quests, companions and the story; that is my point. ME2 was a shorter game, but the fact that DA2 shovels a ton a quest your way doesn't translate into the PC having an effect on the story by completing or making decisions during those quests, they simply are what they are.


I'll try to use an MMO analogy, people who've played both will get it (I hope).

DA:O had Everquest-type quests (mostly). Long, rewarding, meaningful. (well, the major quest with sub-quests)

DAII has WoW-type quests. No longer than 15 minutes, teleport to a place, kill some mobs, very little role-playing value, really rather meaningless quests that serve you to get levels.

Similarly, world in DA:O feels real and you're there and adventuring etc.
DAII world feels like it was built for you to quest and level in.


As a player of both Evercrack and WoW...I have to agree with this! It did feel like DA2 was made into an MMORPG like WoW or DAoC. I just needed to get to level sixty by killing boars in Elwynn Forest.:lol:


Well, at least you didn't get to the locale of the quest and find out your group is 16th in line to camp the quest spawn.  Ahhh... the good ol' days of Evercrack.  Image IPB


I had tried to forget that part, thanks so much for reminding me. Why don't you give me a nice papercut and rub lemon juice in it while you're at it...(which movie...anyone, anyone?)

I don't see the set narrative as ambitious, or the MMORPG style of doing quests as ambitious either (to get us back on topic).:)

#156
neppakyo

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@Erynnar

The Princess Bride. :P Easy.

#157
erynnar

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neppakyo wrote...

@Erynnar

The Princess Bride. :P Easy.


WOOT!!!! I knew I loved you for a reason! But again, I was not ambitious, much like DA2?

#158
Tommy6860

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Corto81 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...



I think you're confusing how many quests there are against how the PC can effect the quests, companions and the story; that is my point. ME2 was a shorter game, but the fact that DA2 shovels a ton a quest your way doesn't translate into the PC having an effect on the story by completing or making decisions during those quests, they simply are what they are.


I'll try to use an MMO analogy, people who've played both will get it (I hope).

DA:O had Everquest-type quests (mostly). Long, rewarding, meaningful. (well, the major quest with sub-quests)

DAII has WoW-type quests. No longer than 15 minutes, teleport to a place, kill some mobs, very little role-playing value, really rather meaningless quests that serve you to get levels.

Similarly, world in DA:O feels real and you're there and adventuring etc.
DAII world feels like it was built for you to quest and level in.


I never play MMOs, so EQ and WoW are unknown to me, but if they as your analogy describe, EQ would still not interest me though it is rewarding as Origins. I know a few people who actually quit/lost their jobs playing EQ and WoW because they couldn't get enough from the socializing aspect of interacting with other online players.

#159
erynnar

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Tommy6860 wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...



I think you're confusing how many quests there are against how the PC can effect the quests, companions and the story; that is my point. ME2 was a shorter game, but the fact that DA2 shovels a ton a quest your way doesn't translate into the PC having an effect on the story by completing or making decisions during those quests, they simply are what they are.


I'll try to use an MMO analogy, people who've played both will get it (I hope).

DA:O had Everquest-type quests (mostly). Long, rewarding, meaningful. (well, the major quest with sub-quests)

DAII has WoW-type quests. No longer than 15 minutes, teleport to a place, kill some mobs, very little role-playing value, really rather meaningless quests that serve you to get levels.

Similarly, world in DA:O feels real and you're there and adventuring etc.
DAII world feels like it was built for you to quest and level in.


I never play MMOs, so EQ and WoW are unknown to me, but if they as your analogy describe, EQ would still not interest me though it is rewarding as Origins. I know a few people who actually quit/lost their jobs playing EQ and WoW because they couldn't get enough from the socializing aspect of interacting with other online players.


I played to be social, but never got fired for playing. Eep!

#160
Tommy6860

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Byth wrote...


By "pre-landsmeet" I meant all the missions that were very connected to the landsmeet(Arl mission and Alienage mission) as apposed to every single mission that takes place before the landsmeet. By ME2 surpassing DA2 in terms of choice in story I'd have to disagree, but you have given me more insight on how DA2 is always called more linear than DA:O.

Anyway, I don't want to go off topic anymore so I'll leave with this post.


This is not to close to the claim you stated in your first reply to Ery regarding the choices made at the end of each mission end similarly, to which I stated, that choices made make differences in Origins, where they don't make a difference in DA2. You've changed your stance from that claim to which I replied. You also stated every mission before the landsmeet ending similarly as they do in DA2, not just missions related to it (though all missions in Origins ultimately lead to the landsmeet). Missions in DA2, especially in Act 1, have virtually no relevance to the main plot, you just are completing the quests to make it to the end of Act 1 without really knowing what for, while they have no impact on the main plot or companions.

Anyway, I don't want to go on anymore, since I sense from this very reply here from me, will have you change your stance yet again.

#161
Tommy6860

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erynnar wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...



I think you're confusing how many quests there are against how the PC can effect the quests, companions and the story; that is my point. ME2 was a shorter game, but the fact that DA2 shovels a ton a quest your way doesn't translate into the PC having an effect on the story by completing or making decisions during those quests, they simply are what they are.


I'll try to use an MMO analogy, people who've played both will get it (I hope).

DA:O had Everquest-type quests (mostly). Long, rewarding, meaningful. (well, the major quest with sub-quests)

DAII has WoW-type quests. No longer than 15 minutes, teleport to a place, kill some mobs, very little role-playing value, really rather meaningless quests that serve you to get levels.

Similarly, world in DA:O feels real and you're there and adventuring etc.
DAII world feels like it was built for you to quest and level in.


I never play MMOs, so EQ and WoW are unknown to me, but if they as your analogy describe, EQ would still not interest me though it is rewarding as Origins. I know a few people who actually quit/lost their jobs playing EQ and WoW because they couldn't get enough from the socializing aspect of interacting with other online players.


I played to be social, but never got fired for playing. Eep!


Sorry, I didn't mean they were fired for just playing the game (I can see where it looks that way), only that they were so obsessed with the game, that they avoided work and the result was getting dismissed from their jobs.

#162
erynnar

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Tommy6860 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...



I think you're confusing how many quests there are against how the PC can effect the quests, companions and the story; that is my point. ME2 was a shorter game, but the fact that DA2 shovels a ton a quest your way doesn't translate into the PC having an effect on the story by completing or making decisions during those quests, they simply are what they are.


I'll try to use an MMO analogy, people who've played both will get it (I hope).

DA:O had Everquest-type quests (mostly). Long, rewarding, meaningful. (well, the major quest with sub-quests)

DAII has WoW-type quests. No longer than 15 minutes, teleport to a place, kill some mobs, very little role-playing value, really rather meaningless quests that serve you to get levels.

Similarly, world in DA:O feels real and you're there and adventuring etc.
DAII world feels like it was built for you to quest and level in.


I never play MMOs, so EQ and WoW are unknown to me, but if they as your analogy describe, EQ would still not interest me though it is rewarding as Origins. I know a few people who actually quit/lost their jobs playing EQ and WoW because they couldn't get enough from the socializing aspect of interacting with other online players.


I played to be social, but never got fired for playing. Eep!


Sorry, I didn't mean they were fired for just playing the game (I can see where it looks that way), only that they were so obsessed with the game, that they avoided work and the result was getting dismissed from their jobs.


Oh okay! ROFL! I was going to say...

#163
element eater

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it was ambitious to do a 180 in style and game play and develop it in a fraction of the time and expect it to stand up next to origins in standard and to expect the fans of origins to embrace it.

I call it ambitious because i hope this is the reason rather then the alternatives

#164
Black-Xero

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 You're absolutely right about it.I'm a  big fan of the less...cliche story of saving the world but it was all done in an average way.Too small and repetitive.Hopefully the third will make it all up and with the fan backlash BW is recieving from the second,I wouldn't be surprised if they try to put more effort into it.

#165
Hatchetman77

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element eater wrote...

it was ambitious to do a 180 in style and game play and develop it in a fraction of the time and expect it to stand up next to origins in standard and to expect the fans of origins to embrace it.


I concur.

#166
Cody211282

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element eater wrote...

it was ambitious to do a 180 in style and game play and develop it in a fraction of the time and expect it to stand up next to origins in standard and to expect the fans of origins to embrace it.


Oh Snap!


But yea I agree.

#167
Foolsfolly

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You know, I've never liked the interviews where BioWare talks about how innovative the game is. There's really nothing there that other games haven't done before.

MAYBE in the storyline? But if feels like 3 decent DLCs to Origins, with their own storylines that do nothing other than foreshadow another game.

If that's innovative than...sure. They innovated doing a pointless game that does nothing but say "Buy the next game and hope we finish the story next time!"

#168
erynnar

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Foolsfolly wrote...

You know, I've never liked the interviews where BioWare talks about how innovative the game is. There's really nothing there that other games haven't done before.

MAYBE in the storyline? But if feels like 3 decent DLCs to Origins, with their own storylines that do nothing other than foreshadow another game.

If that's innovative than...sure. They innovated doing a pointless game that does nothing but say "Buy the next game and hope we finish the story next time!"


Oh Foolsfolly, you do say what I was thinking. The three acts were more like dlcs.

#169
Corto81

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TheTranzor wrote...
Well, at least you didn't get to the locale of the quest and find out your group is 16th in line to camp the quest spawn.  Ahhh... the good ol' days of Evercrack.  Image IPB


True, but in the end, when you got your epic weapon after a couple of months, solo, group and raid content...
Interwoven with a good story... It felt rewarding.
I felt genuinely happy and had a sense of accomplishment with the EQ1 epics and some of the EQ2 (Prismatics, Claymore, even RoK Epic questline).

Similarly, in DA:O I had a similar sense of accomplishment to get certain things done after a long time.
Sticking a dagger in Arl Howe's snarky face was probably the my emotional high when it comes to "vengeance" moments in RPGs.

And again, quite on the opposite, DA2 feels akin to WoW.
Short quests so you don't have to play more than 15 minutes at a time if you're couldn't be arsed to do so,
poor RPG, everything is easily attainable and reap a whole bunch of rewards for very little effort invested.

#170
Ariella

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Mezinger wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

You don't do ambitious in a year and half... period. L.A. Noire is 7 years in the making 1 year of which was in QA, now that's ambitious... How long was DA:O in production? Anyone? Anyone?


So according to Stanley Woo DA:O, depending on your definition of development, was in development for 4-7 years.

http://forums.biowar...93884&forum=135

So then they spin out a "sequel" in a year and a half... it's an obvious money grab, trying to re cash in in the long development of the original whilst streamlining the game to appeal to a wider audience...

Ambitious? come on! Perhaps you could argue that the streamlining was ambitious! LOL
 
Actually ironic really... Because the original reason for Bioware getting into bed with EA was so they'd have the resources to make blockbuster epic video games, and all evidence of what is actually happening is pointing in the opposite direction.



DAO was in development Hell for a large part of that time because they couldn't find a publisher for DAO. Go look back at the archived DAO forum. The idea that a game needs to take 4-7 years would kill a company.

#171
billy the squid

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Ariella wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

You don't do ambitious in a year and half... period. L.A. Noire is 7 years in the making 1 year of which was in QA, now that's ambitious... How long was DA:O in production? Anyone? Anyone?


So according to Stanley Woo DA:O, depending on your definition of development, was in development for 4-7 years.

http://forums.biowar...93884&forum=135

So then they spin out a "sequel" in a year and a half... it's an obvious money grab, trying to re cash in in the long development of the original whilst streamlining the game to appeal to a wider audience...

Ambitious? come on! Perhaps you could argue that the streamlining was ambitious! LOL
 
Actually ironic really... Because the original reason for Bioware getting into bed with EA was so they'd have the resources to make blockbuster epic video games, and all evidence of what is actually happening is pointing in the opposite direction.



DAO was in development Hell for a large part of that time because they couldn't find a publisher for DAO. Go look back at the archived DAO forum. The idea that a game needs to take 4-7 years would kill a company.


DAO I think was announced in something like 2004 and released in 2009 so it took about 5-6 years which is quite a time, even Brent Knowles has mentioned (I think its on the blog or on one of the comments) that DAO took too long and started to lag behind in terms of graphics etc. Which is a problem as the markets move on, it doesn't detract that a great deal of care and attention went into DAO to create the world of Thedas, lore and establish all the structure and ground rules for the game.

DA2 needn't have taken this long, but 18 months? obvious rush job, particularly if they released Awakenings and the DLC in the time and as the later DLC in particular Golems and Witch Hunt scream slap dash as they suffer from the same recycled environments which DA2 got bashed for, and there were complaints even upon the DLC release.

6-7 years is excessive for game development, but 4 years to kill a company, er... no. Skryim and the Witcher 2' s development cycles have both spent about 4 years in development, it makes sense, particularly if the development team wants to overhaul certain parts of the game or redesign aspects from the ground up. 

DA2 is not ambitious nor are the ideas behind it well implemented or thought through and it shows. But is this really suprising when you look at EA's fiscal reports? Looking at EA's profits, I believe that they have posted losses for at least 3 years, so  the issue is not that Bioware was acquired by a company, but who acquired it

Acquiring development studios is an expensive affair, so the desire to crank as much cash out of the asset in as quick a time possible is understandable. But, ultimately misguided or short term in its approach, as it destroys any credibility and market share that the developer had and damages future revenue streams for EA as a publisher, rendering the asset value lower than the initial face value at purchase, should EA choose to sell the developer off at a later date, possibly why westwood was closed down rather than hived off. Dragon Age being rushed and simplified is partially a result of EA's directives to appeal to a wider game audience, because they believed it would bring more revenue which they need to service the debt that EA has.

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 mai 2011 - 06:32 .


#172
Realmzmaster

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Actually the Witcher got canned on the consoles because CD Projekt did not have the funds to pay for the development of the console version which was contracted to french developer Widescreen games. So the development time of The Witcher did have an effect. CD Projekt decided to concentrate on making The Witcher 2 on the PC. At the momemnt there will be on Witcher for the consoles.
A decision which may or may not come back to bite them.

What effects the long development will have on Skyrim is yet to be seen. But Oblivion had a similar development time and it can out as a bug infested game and not nearly (IMHO) as good as Morrowind.

#173
MassFrost

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Black-Xero wrote...

 You're absolutely right about it.I'm a  big fan of the less...cliche story of saving the world but it was all done in an average way.Too small and repetitive.Hopefully the third will make it all up and with the fan backlash BW is recieving from the second,I wouldn't be surprised if they try to put more effort into it.


To be fair to BioWare, the amount of effort they put into the next Dragon Age will probably be limited by how much effort EA is willing to allow them to put in. If it doesn't mean a quick profit for EA, I doubt they'll be too interested.. DA2 did well to illustrate that.

#174
Mezinger

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Ariella wrote...

DAO was in development Hell for a large part of that time because they couldn't find a publisher for DAO. Go look back at the archived DAO forum. The idea that a game needs to take 4-7 years would kill a company.


Well there's A+ games and then there's mediocracy... Bioware used to be known for the A+'s... oh wait what?

http://www.metacriti.../critic-reviews

91% what? A+ So I guess the development time pays off? What? Who would have thought! :blink:

Nobody said it was going to be easy. :devil:

Modifié par Mezinger, 17 mai 2011 - 03:12 .


#175
Cody211282

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MassFrost wrote...

Black-Xero wrote...

 You're absolutely right about it.I'm a  big fan of the less...cliche story of saving the world but it was all done in an average way.Too small and repetitive.Hopefully the third will make it all up and with the fan backlash BW is recieving from the second,I wouldn't be surprised if they try to put more effort into it.


To be fair to BioWare, the amount of effort they put into the next Dragon Age will probably be limited by how much effort EA is willing to allow them to put in. If it doesn't mean a quick profit for EA, I doubt they'll be too interested.. DA2 did well to illustrate that.


The problem is EA doesn't know jack **** about dev times for RPGs. And if they continue to limit the dev times to every 18-24 months then we might as well forget about getting anything good from them at all.