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Any reason to be a renegade when it comes time for big decisions?


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#26
Darkhour

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Yakko77 wrote...

In order to save the galaxy, you don't HAVE to be a royal jack**** and brutal as can be (seriously, no reason to wipe out Feros in ME1, it's straight up murder to do so and that's just one example). If you want to be brutal and malicious, go play Fallout 3 or Fallout New Vegas. If you want to save the galaxy, play Mass Effect and at the very least, play paragade but don't expect to be rewarded for being a cruel and malicious renegade or renegon. Why some players expect to be rewarded for playing sadistic bastards is beyond me.


Doing "the right thing" does not always lead to postive outcomes.  There is a reason that naivity is not considered a good quality.   Both paragon and renegdae choices should have their upsides and downsides.  It simply seems to a lot of people that paragons ALWAYS benefit while renegades ALWAYS suffer. Why even have paragon and renegade if it is indeed so black and white. There might as well just be paragon and neutral.

I suspect that  there will be an upside a downside to each. For instance, keeping the collector base will hurt you earlier on, but when you're piloting that hughe Cerberus mech it will be to your advantage. Saving the Rachni will bite you in the butt initially, but once you find a way to counter indoctrination they will be an asset. Wrex alive and opting to cure the genophage could be advantageous. Wreav in control and helping the cure could hurt.

#27
Cloaking_Thane

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Whats funny is I mostly play Paragon sheps, but I do have 2 initial untouched playthroughs to see what my "first time decisions" will be like (no meta gaming etc)

And while on these I'm mostly paragon, i did kill the Rachni queen and saved the collector base, it seemed logical at the time.......

So my mostly if not entirely paragon shep has two of the biggest renegade decisions in the game lol.....and they both seemed correct to me given all the information and known variables

#28
Drachasor

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Darkhour wrote...
Doing "the right thing" does not always lead to postive outcomes.  There is a reason that naivity is not considered a good quality.   Both paragon and renegdae choices should have their upsides and downsides.  It simply seems to a lot of people that paragons ALWAYS benefit while renegades ALWAYS suffer. Why even have paragon and renegade if it is indeed so black and white. There might as well just be paragon and neutral.


Being naive is about not realizing the full scope of reality, it doesn't really have to do with doing the right or wrong thing.  Someone can be a jerk and naive or be a saint and naive.  Totally independant.

I'd say not saving the Council is pretty naive.  They clearly like humanity and are giving them lots of chances.  They are the most respected members of their races and would help make powerful allies.  It's frankly in humanity's best interest to save them AND it's the right thing to do.  The fact they are on the biggest warship any organic has is another huge thing in favor of saving them -- that's another big asset.

Regarding the Rachni, I can see that being up in the air, and honestly it still is -- they could be easily confused by the Reapers.  Saving or not saving them isn't particularly naive.  Still, even in the real world it is generally better to avoid killing when possible.  There's no strong reason to view that Rachni queen as a threat; she even advises you to wipe out her children.  It isn't a particularly sound principle to judge the member of a race based on the actions of other members of that race.  This is more a straight morality choice than anything else.

Does killing Wrex if you can avoid it EVER make sense?  I think not.

Regarding the Collector base...seriously?  Cerberus is known to have killed alliance military and attacked colonies for its experiments.  Their "pro-humanity" slogan wears a bit thin.  There's absolutely no reason to trust them as the same guy has been in charge all along.  They clearly brought you back just to use you for their own ends.  Worse, they don't really seem to care when they lose people and they aren't very careful around Reaper technology (no precuations about indoctrination when studying that Reaper vessel).  On what planet does it make sense to trust a shadowy organization that has unclear motives with that kind of technology?

Modifié par Drachasor, 14 mai 2011 - 07:29 .


#29
Cloaking_Thane

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Shepard in combination with Liara could easily obtain the technological advances of the Collector base from Cerb.....

#30
CSunkyst

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Oh, the delicious irony.

For all the talk about Paragons not having any balls, Renegade players do seem to whine an awful lot.

For one, Paragon fans never seem to start these "debates" off, it's always a Renegade fan whining because Paragon players aren't inexplicably punished for every single Paragon choice. It's always "everything Paragons do is stupid and 'naive', why isn't the game only rewarding ME?" then after complaining because the Paragon path isn't severely punished every step of the way, after somebody points out that there are sane logical reasons to make Paragon decisions in addition to the idealistic ones, somehow that gets twisted into a Paragon fan throwing it in there face (???huh????)

Second, WHY are you complaining at the lack of cameos during a Renegade playthrough? You shot these people in the face, WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU EXPECTING??? You made the decision to kill that NPC, you brought that on YOURSELF. It's hard to have reoccuring characters when you kill everybody you meet. "I didn't get to see the council in ME2, I'm a big tough Renegade, whine whine whine" Humanity is the dominant force in the galaxy, that's what you wanted, that WAS your reward. You don't order a plain hamburger and then complain to the waiter that there is no ketchup on it.

If you insist on playing as a Renegade, shut up and man up. When the Raccni husks only show up in a Paragon playthrough, after FINALLY seeing the awful Paragon players get punished for daring to play the game as a hero, I fully expect a flood of Renegade players whining and moaning because they're missing out on content.

#31
wepeel_

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Renegade mentalities showcased in threads like this seem akin to the typical schoolyard-bully attitude mirrored in some of the renegade choices: you behave like a dick and beat everyone down just because you can, and then you start whining if it backfires on you.

#32
Obro

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Giving renegade options for not saving the council and saving the base is....retarded.

#33
Nimrodell

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You can play stupid renegade just 'cause you assume that by default you always have to click on first bottom choice in convo wheel, hit every renegade interrupt... and there's smart renegade that actually waits and doesn't kill for no valid reason - example - Eclipse mercenary in Dantius Towers - stupid renegade just clicks the interrupt and tosses the guy out and smart renegade actually waits, then gets proper renegade intimidation option without killing anyone and getting the same renegade points if it's that important. Same goes for al'Jilani - raw bully renegade just hits her, but patient and calculated renegade actually gets better speech than paragon... and what about Thane's son mission? Renegade gets best questioning ever. Also, that captured Cerberus Agent assignment actually shows how true renegade would act - he/she keeps collected data for him/herself without giving those to anyone, 'cause that what renegade is (that choice is properly placed on bottom). Hell, I even kept Wrex as renegade with intimidating options - didn't have to kill him... so I really don't understand how are renegades being punished.

As for major renegade choices, well, even though BW makes division there it doesn't mean player has to act that way just to score some points. Actually, on my best renegade playthroughs (where I played smart renegade, scheming one, I destroyed the base 'cause I don't trust TIM and I was on derelict Reaper and I saw first hand what happens to people 'investigating' Reaper tech... my renegade guards her arse, meaning, TIM cannot be trusted, he's my tool and as such when I want to discard him, don't want him to be stronger - and for me letting Cerberus keep the base is naive and after all, I'm renegade, why would I cater for anyone? TIM was withholding the information from me several times thus placing me in danger, there's no valid reason I would give him anything while my arse is on fire).

So, bottom line is - don't assume as renegade that everything that pops up first is actually renegade way, there's almost always pathway for being smart renegade that doesn't go on killing spree just for the sake of it. Ofc renegades that play that way won't have extra cameos, for god's sake, stupid renegade killed those people and they can't come back, Reapers are not there yet to turn them into husks just for the sake of extra cameos. Determine what type of renegade you'll play and then play it... true renegades are not mindless killing machines, they are practical, they don't follow the rules nor acknowledge the law and order, but they are not stupid nor simple brutes... so don't be deceived by convo wheel, BW actually provided you with second renegade option if you're patient and understand meaning of being a renegade.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 14 mai 2011 - 08:12 .


#34
Zemious

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Everyone here knows the truth:

council deserved to die
Rachni deserved to die
-any of our enemies- deserve to die

I hope you paragon's get your comeuppance.

#35
ExtremeOne

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you paragon players need to just shut the F**k up we all know what side Bioware is on in 3 . Us renegade players make logical choices and we get f**ked thats garbage .

#36
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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^ I'm Paragon....Image IPB

with a few renegade interrupts for example at the beginning of Miri's LM i snapped the guys neck

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 14 mai 2011 - 08:19 .


#37
Someone With Mass

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ExtremeOne wrote...

you paragon players need to just shut the F**k up we all know what side Bioware is on in 3 . Us renegade players make logical choices and we get f**ked thats garbage .


Explain to me how letting the Council die for no good reason other than to be utter douchebags and pretend humanity is better at politics is a "logical" choice.

#38
Ieldra

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CSunkyst wrote...
For all the talk about Paragons not having any balls, Renegade players do seem to whine an awful lot.

For one, Paragon fans never seem to start these "debates" off, it's always a Renegade fan whining because Paragon players aren't inexplicably punished for every single Paragon choice. It's always "everything Paragons do is stupid and 'naive', why isn't the game only rewarding ME?" then after complaining because the Paragon path isn't severely punished every step of the way, after somebody points out that there are sane logical reasons to make Paragon decisions in addition to the idealistic ones, somehow that gets twisted into a Paragon fan throwing it in there face (???huh????)

You're twisting the arguments to your liking. No one said that. Not nearly. As I said in other thread: Both Paragon and Renegade decisions should occasionally yield better results than the other side, because if they don't, there is no point in playing them. Neither side should *always* have the bigger downside.

Second, WHY are you complaining at the lack of cameos during a Renegade playthrough? You shot these people in the face, WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU EXPECTING??? You made the decision to kill that NPC, you brought that on YOURSELF. It's hard to have reoccuring characters when you kill everybody you meet. "I didn't get to see the council in ME2, I'm a big tough Renegade, whine whine whine" Humanity is the dominant force in the galaxy, that's what you wanted, that WAS your reward. You don't order a plain hamburger and then complain to the waiter that there is no ketchup on it.

That's just it. Renegade should be a style of getting things done, not connected to a political goal. I might believe it is for the best to focus on Sovereign in ME1, I might believe we desperately need the technology of the Collector base even if the price is giving to to Cerberus, and still be against human dominance.

Besides, my Renegons can live very well with nobody liking them. Saving the galaxy is a thankless task, and in the end the Reapers will be defeated and no one will like to admit that they were responsible. But *I* as the player, I do complain about a pattern of consequences that favors Paragons and never gives them a significant downside. The problem is that the ME universe is supposed to feel reasonably real. That is a way through such a conflict with no hard decisions being necessary, that's just not believable. As, btw, Arrival shows. Too bad it wasn't really a choice, eh? I bet there were some Paragons who would have refused to accept realisy and left the relay intact, resulting in a non-standard game over. But oh....I forgot. Had there been a real choice, the Paragons would have been offered an easy way out of the dilemma. . 

If you insist on playing as a Renegade, shut up and man up. When the Raccni husks only show up in a Paragon playthrough, after FINALLY seeing the awful Paragon players get punished for daring to play the game as a hero, I fully expect a flood of Renegade players whining and moaning because they're missing out on content.

Possibly, but I won't be one of them. Missed content is a game aspect, I'm more interested in story consequences. And btw, I would find playing a Paragon much more interesting if they had to make real sacrifices for their moral stance. Renegades always have to ask "is it worth it?" when they make decisions with undesirable side effects they think are nonetheless necessary. Paragons never have to - because the easy solutions get thrown into their lap. In defiance of plausibility, Paragons need never ask "Can I afford to make this decision?"

#39
ExtremeOne

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Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

you paragon players need to just shut the F**k up we all know what side Bioware is on in 3 . Us renegade players make logical choices and we get f**ked thats garbage .


Explain to me how letting the Council die for no good reason other than to be utter douchebags and pretend humanity is better at politics is a "logical" choice.

   


That council was stupid and was doing nothing about sh*t so yeah you dam right they deserved to die . humanity was treated like sh*t in ME 1 . you dam right its time for humanity to get even with the galaxy .  

#40
nickkcin11

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Rojahar wrote...

Kill the Rachni because they might be a huge threat a deceiving you? WRONG DECISION! Turns out they're good and will help you if you spare them.

Decide to prioritize stopping Sovereign instead of protecting inept beaurocrats? WRONG DECISION! You can have your cake and eat it too. Saving them has no negative consequences. All those lives lost to save three people? Nobody cares. Nothing but benefits for saving them.

Kill X NPC? Just one less cameo. One less cameo who's probably reformed their evil ways and will help you in the end.

Save the Collector base, in hopes of finding out secrets that will help you? TERRIBLE CHOICE! Turns out it's all bad and blows up in your face!

Support Cerberus? They're working for the Reapers now. "lolol FU Renegades"

So, is there any reason to make any Renegade *decisions*? No, not dialogue, but DECISIONS. It seems like every meaningful decisions isn't so much a choice between Paragon and Renegade, but rather choice between Always-Rewarded Faith / Doing the "right" thing with nothing but rewards and no consequences... or being a moron, making a fool of yourself as Renegade, and getting punished.

Is there any reason for my Renegade Shep to not choose Paragon options for big decisions, other than if I wanted to roleplay someone who makes bad decisions?

Pretty much, it always sounded like the worst decision. Some of the renegade dialogue makes sense but the renegade decisions were clearly mistakes (letting the Destiny ascension and 10003 people onboard die or let 5 alliance ships die... giving the Collector base to a terrorist organization where Reaper tech always results in indoctrination or destoy the stupid thing). Yeah the paragon choices were always the best, the renegade ones were just to be evil.

And Extreme One, you need to chill out. Stop complaining about Miranda and Renegade stuff. Miranda will come back as a big role, I promise you that.

What the hell is wrong with Renegade players, "I hope you paragon players get your comeuponce!" Why, what did we ever do to you? It's like when people say, "I hope Tali/Ash/Kaiden/Garrus/insert character doesn't appear in ME3!" Just ignore the character if you don't like it. Stop ruining the experience for everyone else.

Modifié par nickkcin11, 14 mai 2011 - 08:31 .


#41
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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I'm a Paragon. Yes I am. I only do several renegade interrupts when i have to. Like Miri's LM I snap the guy's neck.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 14 mai 2011 - 08:26 .


#42
Nimrodell

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ExtremeOne wrote...

you paragon players need to just shut the F**k up we all know what side Bioware is on in 3 . Us renegade players make logical choices and we get f**ked thats garbage .


Well, Extreme, who said that your logic is the all rulling one? Where is it written? In the stars perhaps or did some god appeared to you in your sleep telling you ancient prophecy that one standard logic of yours will be finally acknowledged as general truth? Look, I really find your posts amusing, something that kept topics alive, but, m8, you're full of crap, honestly lol. Sorry, can't stop laughing.. Sometimes when I read your berserking her I do picture Miranda sitting by keyboard and foaming and griting her teeth... Sorry, but the tone of your posts, your convictions and that avatar of yours just make me see you like that.

Anyways - you are Trogdor the Burninator of these forums and just for you, dear, a lil tribute .

#43
Ieldra

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Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

you paragon players need to just shut the F**k up we all know what side Bioware is on in 3 . Us renegade players make logical choices and we get f**ked thats garbage .


Explain to me how letting the Council die for no good reason other than to be utter douchebags and pretend humanity is better at politics is a "logical" choice.

Are you speaking of the actual decision or of the option you use to take it. Because I think the middle option "concentrate on the Sovereign", which gets you the same result as the lower, is a tactically plausible one to take. Everything in that battle depends on taking down Sovereign, it you can't do that, nothing else will matter. The only way I can justify taking the upper option is to say that there are so many ships that they can't all attack Sovereign at once - but once you assume that saving the Destiny Ascension makes a great deal of sense.

Taking the lower option, in that I agree, makes little sense.  

#44
Someone With Mass

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ExtremeOne wrote...
That council was stupid and was doing nothing about sh*t so yeah you dam right they deserved to die . humanity was treated like sh*t in ME 1 . you dam right its time for humanity to get even with the galaxy .  


So, if I think someone's stupid, but they really have valid reasons to be concerned, I should kill them?

Okay.

Is there any address I can find you on?

Oh, boo-hoo. Humanity didn't get every corner of the galaxy within thirty years after they discovered the mass relays. Cry me a ****ing river.

Retards like Terra Firma and Cerberus deserves to be pushed down for being so ungodly idiotic.

#45
Someone With Mass

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Ieldra2 wrote...
Are you speaking of the actual decision or of the option you use to take it. Because I think the middle option "concentrate on the Sovereign", which gets you the same result as the lower, is a tactically plausible one to take. Everything in that battle depends on taking down Sovereign, it you can't do that, nothing else will matter. The only way I can justify taking the upper option is to say that there are so many ships that they can't all attack Sovereign at once - but once you assume that saving the Destiny Ascension makes a great deal of sense.

Taking the lower option, in that I agree, makes little sense.  

That I can understand. But deliberately letting the Council die is just pointless.

#46
Ieldra

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nickkcin11 wrote...
Pretty much, it always sounded like the worst decision. Some of the renegade dialogue makes sense but the renegade decisions were clearly mistakes (letting the Destiny ascension and 10003 people onboard die or let 5 alliance ships die... giving the Collector base to a terrorist organization where Reaper tech always results in indoctrination or destoy the stupid thing). Yeah the paragon choices were always the best, the renegade ones were just to be evil.

Actually, no. Both decisions make strategic sense, as I have explained in my last post. Regarding the Collector base, for instance, you do not keep it in order to give it to Cerberus, that's just an undesirable side effect. You keep it in order to kearn to reverse engineer Reaper technology. OK, at least I did for that reason and most others. That's not evil, that's letting strategic reasoning overrule morality. Where the survival of everything is threatened, we cannot afford to make decisions that give an advantage away. Since Cerberus is involved, I pretty much expect there to be bad side effects of my decision in ME3. That's ok with me, as long as my strategic reasoning also bears fruit and I get to close a part of the technology gap and use that to defeat the Reapers faster or more completely.

Miranda will come back as a big role, I promise you that.

I'll hold you to that promise. :lol:

#47
Ryzaki

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I'd actually feel sorry for renegades...except they're not being punished.

A few of my paragons (paragades) missed out on several cameos. I don't feel punished.

#48
nickkcin11

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Ieldra2 wrote...

nickkcin11 wrote...
Pretty much, it always sounded like the worst decision. Some of the renegade dialogue makes sense but the renegade decisions were clearly mistakes (letting the Destiny ascension and 10003 people onboard die or let 5 alliance ships die... giving the Collector base to a terrorist organization where Reaper tech always results in indoctrination or destoy the stupid thing). Yeah the paragon choices were always the best, the renegade ones were just to be evil.

Actually, no. Both decisions make strategic sense, as I have explained in my last post. Regarding the Collector base, for instance, you do not keep it in order to give it to Cerberus, that's just an undesirable side effect. You keep it in order to kearn to reverse engineer Reaper technology. OK, at least I did for that reason and most others. That's not evil, that's letting strategic reasoning overrule morality. Where the survival of everything is threatened, we cannot afford to make decisions that give an advantage away. Since Cerberus is involved, I pretty much expect there to be bad side effects of my decision in ME3. That's ok with me, as long as my strategic reasoning also bears fruit and I get to close a part of the technology gap and use that to defeat the Reapers faster or more completely.


Miranda will come back as a big role, I promise you that.

I'll hold you to that promise. :lol:

My first playthrough of ME1, I chose the middle decision too because I thought that we would lose if I chose the others...Image IPB don't laugh at me. Anyway the last decision makes absolutely no sense for the reason stated above. As for the base, Cerberus seemed to be a lot different from ME1 but after seeing them at there worse, I couldn't give the base to them. A base which still had a Reaper that climbed up from the bottom of the chasm Gorax giant style. And the track record with Reaper tech causing indoctrination is 100% so far. So I had to get rid of it.

As for Miranda, she is popular, the sex appeal of the series (a shared  role with Ash), and has a well known voice actor. And she is a former officer of the ranks of one of the main antagonists in the game. She will return in a huge role, you'll see.Image IPB

#49
Elijee

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Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

you paragon players need to just shut the F**k up we all know what side Bioware is on in 3 . Us renegade players make logical choices and we get f**ked thats garbage .


Explain to me how letting the Council die for no good reason other than to be utter douchebags and pretend humanity is better at politics is a "logical" choice.


I let the Council die in my canon playthrough.  And it was based in my Shepard's effort to make sure the day was won, not some political gambit.

If I metagame, I know that the good guys still win the day and Sovereign is destroyed, but Shepard doesn't.  All she knows is that the Destiny Ascension has the Council on board, is currently crippled (kinetic barriers are falling or something), and will require some serious sacrifice on the Alliance's part to save.  So she said "focus on Sovereign" in the hopes that maintaining the Fifth Fleet's strength for as long as possible would ensure Sovereign's defeat.  And that doesn't even guarantee that the Council will be saved--for all she knows, the Ascension will explode before the Alliance can arrive and bail them out.  Furthermore, the because the Ascension has the Council on board, it would be silly to assume it will remain to offer any sort of back up--in this case, I suspect the Ascension's primary goal would be to use the relay to head for safer waters.

To be honest, I tend to have a harder time coming up with good reasons to save the Council beyond, "Save the completely replaceable Council!  Who knows how long it'll take to elect new Councilors?!"  Not to belittle anyone who does save the Council, but I think saying that one choice is illogical is silly.  There's always an argument for each side.

ETA: and someone else posted almost this exact argument.  Ah, well, my take stands.

Modifié par Elijee, 14 mai 2011 - 08:57 .


#50
88mphSlayer

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nope, you can pretty much play the entire series just holding the left stick in the upper-right direction and skipping every conversation spamming "X" and get the best ending, only switching to upper-left once in a while

renegade exists simply for the illusion that the game isn't linear

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 14 mai 2011 - 09:01 .