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Any reason to be a renegade when it comes time for big decisions?


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#51
Dark Eff3ct

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Zemious wrote...

Everyone here knows the truth:

council deserved to die
Rachni deserved to die
-any of our enemies- deserve to die

I hope you paragon's get your comeuppance.


How is that the truth?

I see it as the galaxy needs the council, so to help the galaxy i saved the council.

The rachni queen at least deserved a chance to live... to me it's just evil to kill her without fully understanding her side. Just because the galaxy was at war with the rachni once, doesn't mean the rachni are still the same as before. Don't punish a whole species because of a bad past, if they need to be punished, punish them for crimes (if any) that they commit in the present.. That's like punishing a countries today, for a war fought hundreds of years ago.

They only deserve to die, if it saves more lives in the long run. IMO.

So apparrently you get truth and opinions mixed up because i don't agree with your "truths" at all; and my opinion makes what you said false, at least to me.

#52
Ryzaki

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...Sometimes I wonder if renegades realize that they *can* make paragon choices (and vice versa).

The fact that people are only making paragon/renegade decisions and not what makes sense for their Shepard saddens me. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 09:17 .


#53
ReallyRue

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The lulz. That's a reason to go renegade for the big decisions.

But my renegades usually save the Council and destroy the Collector base anyway. Both have solid reasons behind them that don't need to be the same as paragon reasoning.

#54
Darkhour

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Drachasor wrote...

I'd say not saving the Council is pretty naive. 


If not naive, careless and idiotic. 

The fate of the galaxy is at stake RIGHT THIS MOMENT, not 2-3 years later. Your foe: a giantic AI dreadnaught with insane defensive and offensive capabilities. His imminent goal: you bring in thousands more super dreadnaughts. Do we pour everything into stopping this thing RIGHT NOW, or do we waste some resources on an asari dreadnaught that is, for all intents and purposes, out of THIS FIGHT (this fight in which the very galaxy is at stake) because 3 replacable individuals are onboard? That is the way the choice is presented.

In 3 out of 6 of my Shepards I save the Council. I actually prefer it that way, but in real life I don't have the hindsight to know that I can have my cake and eat it too.  For all Shepard knows those resources wasted on saving the Destiny Ascension could be the difference between victory and total destruction.  It is naive, given the situation to worry about politics, look to tommorrow and hope everything turns out wel because there may be no tommorrow. Yet the paragon decison's careless idiocy seems to make citadel space overall stronger and more unitied with no obvious downside whatsoever,  Sorry, but that's messed up. This isn't a Walt Disney movie. 



Regarding the Rachni, I can see that being up in the air, and honestly it still is -- they could be easily confused by the Reapers.  Saving or not saving them isn't particularly naive. 


We don't have a krogan army anymore. If the newer rachni generation or the Queen herself decide to go back on her promise and opt for revenge you will have effectively doomed everyone to death or rachni enslavement.  I know the choices are stupid: kill or let go, but the smartest choice is to eliminate the threat. If Shepard is going to make a choice that can DECIDE THE FATE OF EVERY GALACTIC CITIZEN  your only rational choice is the one that can't possibly end in the destruction of civilization as we know it. Am I really going to endanger the entire galaxy over some personal moral objection?  How selfish and utterly irresponsible. Again, in real life I'd haved turned her over to the council and a team of asari matriarchs could have mind boned her, had some incredible orgasms. had a few unique daughters, learned about what happened during the war and found out her true motives.  But such an ultra rational option was unavailable. 
 


Does killing Wrex if you can avoid it EVER make sense?  I think not.


It makes since outside a world in which you can sweet talk your way out of anything. Within the confines of the game's mechanics it makes no sense.  There is a matter of trust. In real life, would I expect to just be able to say "trust me" and have a guy toss out all his hopes and dreams come true for his dying people? Doubtful. No heirloom armor or minute of sweet talk is going to sway a person that quickly on an issue of that magnitude. And even if you convince him, will he change his mind while in the facility? Can you risk leaving him on the ship? Maybe he'll take over the Normandy and prevent the bomb drop off? Should I take that chance given what is at stake?

I had played ME1 several times and never even knew Wrex could die for the longest time.  It wasn't until I came to the forums did I find out and even then I figured you had to make a conscious effort to kill him. I was truly surprised that there were people who unintentional got him killed. For me, in 2 out of 6 Shepards he dies, but on purpose for story variation. I prefer paragon choices as much as anyone, but I also know that outside of fiction, paragon Shepard would fail.. HARD.

Regarding the Collector base...seriously?  Cerberus is known to have killed alliance military and attacked colonies for its experiments.  Their "pro-humanity" slogan wears a bit thin.  There's absolutely no reason to trust them as the same guy has been in charge all along.  They clearly brought you back just to use you for their own ends.  Worse, they don't really seem to care when they lose people and they aren't very careful around Reaper technology (no precuations about indoctrination when studying that Reaper vessel).  On what planet does it make sense to trust a shadowy organization that has unclear motives with that kind of technology?


It's not about trusting Cerberus or TIM. It's about the survival of all species.  I'd rather have a Cerberus, and by extension humanity, dominated galaxy than no galaxy at all. There is no option to give the IFF to the Alliance or Council and have them study the base. Your choices: Destroy it and all its secrets (which would logically include detailed technical data on the reapers) and possibly damning all advanced life in the galaxy (with no foreseeable plan B against the reapers).  OR give that potential knowledge to a questionable organization who, despite their faults, make for a better alternative than total destruction. Again, what other option is there if you blow the base to bits? Just hope for the best? Pray to a myriad of gods to save us and hope one answers? Or as Shepard would say, "I'll take em down.. somehow". Somehow? That's not very reassuring. We're going to need more than irrational hope and a holier than thou moral fiber to stop the reapers, 

Renegade choices make far more sense given the limited choices you have and the galactic situation at hand. But, naivity shouldn't be punished 100% either. Sometimes gambling pays off.  I hope there is an upside and downside to decisions as in the examples I mentioned earlier.  It would really water down the story if reckless optimism and virtuosity always prevailed while caution and pragmatism always bite you in the ass.

Modifié par Darkhour, 14 mai 2011 - 09:33 .


#55
JetsoverEverything

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*sigh*

i see no point in arguing about this.
paragons are just gonna keep ****ting on everything because renegades are "stupid"

#56
The Minority

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More Renegade vs Paragon crap?
Honestly what does it matter?

#57
LTKerr

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Yes, for the lulz

#58
ExtremeOne

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Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
That council was stupid and was doing nothing about sh*t so yeah you dam right they deserved to die . humanity was treated like sh*t in ME 1 . you dam right its time for humanity to get even with the galaxy .  


So, if I think someone's stupid, but they really have valid reasons to be concerned, I should kill them?

Okay.

Is there any address I can find you on?

Oh, boo-hoo. Humanity didn't get every corner of the galaxy within thirty years after they discovered the mass relays. Cry me a ****ing river.

Retards like Terra Firma and Cerberus deserves to be pushed down for being so ungodly idiotic.

    




well you and the rest of the alliance alien loving clowns can keep doing what you do but renegades like myself will do what ever it takes to make humanity and Earth safe in ME 3 . I don't give 2 sh*ts if I have to blow up a alien's home planet if that means saving Earth and humanity .  My Shepard would rather see the krogan rise up and get even with the galaxy than defend the idea of humanity bowing down to races like the asari 

#59
wepeel_

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Ieldra2 wrote...

The problem is that the ME universe is supposed to feel reasonably real. That is a way through such a conflict with no hard decisions being necessary, that's just not believable. As, btw, Arrival shows. Too bad it wasn't really a choice, eh? I bet there were some Paragons who would have refused to accept realisy and left the relay intact, resulting in a non-standard game over. But oh....I forgot. Had there been a real choice, the Paragons would have been offered an easy way out of the dilemma.

And btw, I would find playing a Paragon much more interesting if they had to make real sacrifices for their moral stance. Renegades always have to ask "is it worth it?" when they make decisions with undesirable side effects they think are nonetheless necessary. Paragons never have to - because the easy solutions get thrown into their lap. In defiance of plausibility, Paragons need never ask "Can I afford to make this decision?"


I don't agree with this at all. Letting the rachni live is a potentially dangerous decision. Reprogramming the geth collective is a potentially dangerous decision. Taking care to save the colonists on Feros is a potentially dangerous decision.

The difference is rather that while a renegade takes the easy way out and eradicates anything that can be seen as a potential obstacle, the paragon trusts in his intuition, and shoulders the eventual responsibility of the outcome. He also trusts in his abilities to handle the potential dangers of the matter. From a character point-of-view, that isn't an easy decision to make as it comes with great risk - but if you do pull it off, it's arguably a more rewarding one.

If anything, you seem to be grumpy that paragon characters are allowed to make risky choices, as well as have the capbilities to get away with them - though sometimes it's the other way around. Destroying the collector base is surely easier - and less rewarding - than keeping it might have been.

#60
Nimrodell

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@Darkhour: Please tell me one thing, from strategic point of view and no meta-gaming - Shepard know some things about indoctrination, just returned back from the derelict Reaper... now, how is handing over the Collector base more logical choice... renegades must have their doubts too, they've seen what Reaper tech does to people and that thing is too big to be 'safely' dismantled and isolated for study. So, yes, you can try to dabble into Reaper tech but who tells or guarantees Shepard that those on the Collector Base won't become new Reaper agents, meaning - ok, you got some data (if they had enough time to extract it and actually understand it), but what then? Going back to hunt indoctrinated down? There are serious consequences for both pathways... and it's not even about trusting TIM.

#61
The Minority

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ExtremeOne wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
That council was stupid and was doing nothing about sh*t so yeah you dam right they deserved to die . humanity was treated like sh*t in ME 1 . you dam right its time for humanity to get even with the galaxy .  


So, if I think someone's stupid, but they really have valid reasons to be concerned, I should kill them?

Okay.

Is there any address I can find you on?

Oh, boo-hoo. Humanity didn't get every corner of the galaxy within thirty years after they discovered the mass relays. Cry me a ****ing river.

Retards like Terra Firma and Cerberus deserves to be pushed down for being so ungodly idiotic.

    




well you and the rest of the alliance alien loving clowns can keep doing what you do but renegades like myself will do what ever it takes to make humanity and Earth safe in ME 3 . I don't give 2 sh*ts if I have to blow up a alien's home planet if that means saving Earth and humanity .  My Shepard would rather see the krogan rise up and get even with the galaxy than defend the idea of humanity bowing down to races like the asari 

ExtremeOne, your arguments would make a lot more sense if you used proper grammar.
Besides if you save the council, humanity's standings go up and they become equals.

#62
NuclearBuddha

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I thought the reward for being renegade was the thrill some people get from being kinda douchey. So, uh, being renegade is its own reward.

#63
Seboist

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Ryzaki wrote...

...Sometimes I wonder if renegades realize that they *can* make paragon choices (and vice versa).

The fact that people are only making paragon/renegade decisions and not what makes sense for their Shepard saddens me. 

Good job on pigeonholing other people to prove yourself right. Talk about a circular argument. :whistle:

#64
Bad King

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Rojahar wrote...

1.Kill the Rachni because they might be a huge threat a deceiving you? WRONG DECISION! Turns out they're good and will help you if you spare them.

2.Decide to prioritize stopping Sovereign instead of protecting inept beaurocrats? WRONG DECISION! You can have your cake and eat it too. Saving them has no negative consequences. All those lives lost to save three people? Nobody cares. Nothing but benefits for saving them.

3.Kill X NPC? Just one less cameo. One less cameo who's probably reformed their evil ways and will help you in the end.

4.Save the Collector base, in hopes of finding out secrets that will help you? TERRIBLE CHOICE! Turns out it's all bad and blows up in your face!

5.Support Cerberus? They're working for the Reapers now. "lolol FU Renegades"

So, is there any reason to make any Renegade *decisions*? No, not dialogue, but DECISIONS. It seems like every meaningful decisions isn't so much a choice between Paragon and Renegade, but rather choice between Always-Rewarded Faith / Doing the "right" thing with nothing but rewards and no consequences... or being a moron, making a fool of yourself as Renegade, and getting punished.

Is there any reason for my Renegade Shep to not choose Paragon options for big decisions, other than if I wanted to roleplay someone who makes bad decisions?


1. They have only said that they will help. Who knows what they will do in ME3. Maybe they will get indoctrinated again!
2. Letting the council die saves ~2500 human lives and puts humans at the top of the council, allowing humans not to be bound by the Farixen treaty (which stopped them from building too many dreadnoughts. Sure, there are some aliens who resent humanity after this, but this also has a positive effect in that it starts tensions between turians and humans leading towards an arms race between the two species (meaning more ships to fight the reapers). So it's not exactly the wrong decision.
3. What about Balak and to a degree Rana Thanoptis? Not exactly good characters by a long shot. Still I see where you're coming from.
4. I see this said a lot and I'm surprised at the amount of people that have already played Mass Effect 3! So many people seem to know exactly what is going to happen. :P My speculation on the Collector Base is this- since we're fighting Cerberus in ME3, we may have the opportunity to seize back the base for ourselves. Regardless of whether I'm right or not, we simply don't have the info to jump to conclusions yet.
5. Only PC gamer have claimed that they are working for the Reapers (nothing has been said about it officially). I personally think that this was PC gamer telling pork pies- they aren't the most reliable source. I hope BioWare do give us a good reason for Cerberus's aggression though. Lulz they iz workeng for teh reapez is cheap and silly.

So chill for now.

#65
Seboist

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88mphSlayer wrote...

nope, you can pretty much play the entire series just holding the left stick in the upper-right direction and skipping every conversation spamming "X" and get the best ending, only switching to upper-left once in a while

renegade exists simply for the illusion that the game isn't linear


Yeah, Renegade is just for a troll playthrough and completely worthless from a meta perspective.

#66
Someone With Mass

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ExtremeOne wrote...
well you and the rest of the alliance alien loving clowns can keep doing what you do but renegades like myself will do what ever it takes to make humanity and Earth safe in ME 3 . I don't give 2 sh*ts if I have to blow up a alien's home planet if that means saving Earth and humanity .  My Shepard would rather see the krogan rise up and get even with the galaxy than defend the idea of humanity bowing down to races like the asari 


Ah, I like delusional viewpoints.

There's no race out there that wants to enslave humanity. Well, except the batarians, but they're weird that way.

I find it amusing that Renegades like you are contradicting the very reason humanity traveled outside the solar system to begin with. To learn about other lifeforms and discover new resources and technology and perhaps get a better view of life. 
Cerberus & Co are no better than the N*zis were. They're reverting back to the age when people burned witches. 

Yes, they're that stupid.

#67
Darkhour

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Nimrodell wrote...

@Darkhour: Please tell me one thing, from strategic point of view and no meta-gaming - Shepard know some things about indoctrination, just returned back from the derelict Reaper... now, how is handing over the Collector base more logical choice... renegades must have their doubts too, they've seen what Reaper tech does to people and that thing is too big to be 'safely' dismantled and isolated for study. So, yes, you can try to dabble into Reaper tech but who tells or guarantees Shepard that those on the Collector Base won't become new Reaper agents, meaning - ok, you got some data (if they had enough time to extract it and actually understand it), but what then? Going back to hunt indoctrinated down? There are serious consequences for both pathways... and it's not even about trusting TIM.


We need to find a way to counter indoctrination. Ignoring detailed technical schematics on the reapers with no other alternative is reckless. Who cares if some individuals get indoctrinated along the way. They'll all die anyway when the reapers arrive and we have absolutely nothing to use against them.  At least the tech on the base offers tangible hope in finding a reaper weakness or means to fight them and not merely a "we'll stop em... ur, somehow" pipedream.

I doubt a handful of scientist are going to pose a great threat if they become indoctrinated. They can rotate those working on the station every 3 days or even utilize remote control drones or androids.  Granted, I'd support leaving a control group there to ascertain if indocrination waves are active on the station and if so, they can be studied. We need to learn how to detect it. Vigil could detect it so it leaves a biological trace. And we need to learn how to counter it. I have no doubt Cerberus put those scientist on that derelict reaper knowing or at least suspecting what would happen. It must be studied for the benefit of all. Sacrifices are just a part of the game.

Modifié par Darkhour, 14 mai 2011 - 09:55 .


#68
Barquiel

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Rojahar wrote...

Decide to prioritize stopping Sovereign instead of protecting inept beaurocrats? WRONG DECISION! You can have your cake and eat it too. Saving them has no negative consequences. All those lives lost to save three people? Nobody cares. Nothing but benefits for saving them.


Shepard saved three "inept" bureaucrats, 10000 lives and Hackett doesn't have to worry about a cloud of Geth ships while trying to defeat an unknown dreadnought.

#69
ExtremeOne

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I just want the Paragon players to feel as if their choices do not matter . Like us renegade players have been feeling since ME 1 . Bioware claims your choices shape your ME games . Well if that is the case then why are renegade players forced to walk the paragon path in ME 3. There is a issue with the whole paragon / renegade system . They need to address it before the game comes out .

#70
Ryzaki

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Seboist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Sometimes I wonder if renegades realize that they *can* make paragon choices (and vice versa).

The fact that people are only making paragon/renegade decisions and not what makes sense for their Shepard saddens me. 

Good job on pigeonholing other people to prove yourself right. Talk about a circular argument. :whistle:


...What? :?

#71
Someone With Mass

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Speaking of indoctrination, the salarians knows about it and might be working with producing countermeasures, regardless of the state of the Collector base.

#72
Someone With Mass

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ExtremeOne wrote...

I just want the Paragon players to feel as if their choices do not matter . Like us renegade players have been feeling since ME 1 . Bioware claims your choices shape your ME games . Well if that is the case then why are renegade players forced to walk the paragon path in ME 3. There is a issue with the whole paragon / renegade system . They need to address it before the game comes out .


Speak for yourself.

Most Renegade choices in ME1 matters.

It's just that some people can't realize it unless it's smacking them right in the face and flat out tells them what will happen. 

#73
DieBySword

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a bunch of indoctrinated scientist blown away a whole star system in arrival

#74
Clonedzero

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i always kill the rachni queen because its royally stupid that she's "good". and i play mostl yparagon too.

she's a queen of a hivemind species, the drones and normal rachni are mindless slaves to the queen. not missing out on much there.

i mean i play 90% paragon easily every playthrough. and i want paragon choices to have consequences.

it would be flat out BAD AND LAZY WRITING if all the paragon choices worked out perfectly and all the renegade ones worked out poorly. why people want perfect happy huggy bunny filled galaxy due to their paragon choices is beyond me. that doesnt make an interesting story. that makes things boring, makes a "right and wrong" choices. instead of just method.

i will be extremely disappointed if it turns out all the paragon choices turns out great, especially the rachni.

#75
Master Wolf

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For me the only one renegade big decision that make sense is keep the Collector Base, and even that is a shoot in the dark because we don't know if the Reapers have instaled there any security measures that can back fire on us later, and we are handing it over to an organization wich comptence and intentions raise many doubts, but in the end I belive that what we can gain in keeping it is much more than what we can lose if things go wrong during the process of studing it.