162 réponses à ce sujet

[Nimrodell]

Darkhour wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

@Darkhour: Please tell me one thing, from strategic point of view and no meta-gaming - Shepard know some things about indoctrination, just returned back from the derelict Reaper... now, how is handing over the Collector base more logical choice... renegades must have their doubts too, they've seen what Reaper tech does to people and that thing is too big to be 'safely' dismantled and isolated for study. So, yes, you can try to dabble into Reaper tech but who tells or guarantees Shepard that those on the Collector Base won't become new Reaper agents, meaning - ok, you got some data (if they had enough time to extract it and actually understand it), but what then? Going back to hunt indoctrinated down? There are serious consequences for both pathways... and it's not even about trusting TIM.

We need to find a way to counter indoctrination. Ignoring detailed technical schematics on the reapers with no other alternative is reckless. Who cares if some individuals get indoctrinated along the way. They'll all die anyway when the reapers arrive and we have absolutely nothing to use against them.  At least the tech on the base offers tangible hope in finding a reaper weakness or means to fight them and not merely a "we'll stop em... ur, somehow" pipedream.

I doubt a handful of scientist are going to pose a great threat if they become indoctrinated. They can rotate those working on the station every 3 days or even utilize remote control drones or androids.  Granted, I'd support leaving a control group there to ascertain if indocrination waves are active on the station and if so, they can be studied. We need to learn how to detect it. Vigil could detect it so it leaves a biological trace. And we need to learn how to counter it. I have no doubt Cerberus put those scientist on that derelict reaper knowing or at least suspecting what would happen. It must be studied for the benefit of all. Sacrifices are just a part of the game.

That's all well and good but I'm not talking about sacrifices, I'm talking about the fact that those indoctrinated ones may do lot of harm - Shepard renegade doesn't have all that knowledge but even renegade can have doubts after just being on derelict Reaper. So, tis not default renegade choice as BW descibes it. Now, Im going out from Shepards knowledge, and going into Retribution and The Arrival DLC (tho this thing may be in Shepard's knowledge if you do The Arrival b4 going onto Suicide Mission, and if Shepard listened carefully all those derelict Reaper recording, he/she may have a hunch that dr Chandana was becoming strange as he was dismissing all claims from other Cerberus crew members). In Retribution as soon as Reapers assume control over Paul Greyson (and that happens after 3 days as I recall), they are able to blend in and manipulate through him... same happened to Amanda Kenson and all that were working on Object Rho. I don't know how much time it took them to take over her completely, but when Shepard met her, she was behaving like she was suposed to in order to lure him/her... all over Paul Greyson being controlled by very smart Reapers that actually access your memory, behaving patterns, knowledge on species, politics, etc... who's to say that Shepard won't get false data or even Cerberus from possibly indoctrinated people, yes they can get crumbs but only those that serve Reaper purpose as seen in these mentioned cases.
Develop a countermeasure? How? I mean in such brief time with limited resources when no one is believing you... that is far fetched. And as I said, it has nothing to do with being a renegade or paragon, it has to do with fact how much Shepard knows, how he/she percieves all possiblities. And for new Shepards that do The Arrival after Horizon itself, tis just true gambling, 'cause they know how indoctrination works from the first hand. That's why I asked you this and I really don't perceive my choice to destroy the base as paragon one - I just don't want to take any chances with Reaper stuff that even Protheans didn't understand properly.

[Drachasor]

Darkhour wrote...

Drachasor wrote...

I'd say not saving the Council is pretty naive. 

If not naive, careless and idiotic. 

The fate of the galaxy is at stake RIGHT THIS MOMENT, not 2-3 years later. Your foe: a giantic AI dreadnaught with insane defensive and offensive capabilities. His imminent goal: you bring in thousands more super dreadnaughts. Do we pour everything into stopping this thing RIGHT NOW, or do we waste some resources on an asari dreadnaught that is, for all intents and purposes, out of THIS FIGHT (this fight in which the very galaxy is at stake) because 3 replacable individuals are onboard? That is the way the choice is presented.

In 3 out of 6 of my Shepards I save the Council. I actually prefer it that way, but in real life I don't have the hindsight to know that I can have my cake and eat it too.  For all Shepard knows those resources wasted on saving the Destiny Ascension could be the difference between victory and total destruction.  It is naive, given the situation to worry about politics, look to tommorrow and hope everything turns out wel because there may be no tommorrow. Yet the paragon decison's careless idiocy seems to make citadel space overall stronger and more unitied with no obvious downside whatsoever,  Sorry, but that's messed up. This isn't a Walt Disney movie.

It's indicated that the choice is between sacrificing lives for aliens or not, but winning should result in either case.  You have a whole fleet to take out a Reaper, a couple ships shouldn't make a big difference.  Beyond that, you've already STOPPED its plan at this point as far as you know, since Saren is dead before he finished given Sovereign control of the station (otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by Reapers already).  If Sovereign thought it could just bullrush in and do things by itself, it wouldn't have needed Saren, so it must think that it will die against a fleet of enemy ships.

There's every reason to think the fleet can sacrifice a little to save the Ascension and win the mop-up battle against Sovereign.

Darkhour wrote...

Regarding the Rachni, I can see that being up in the air, and honestly it still is -- they could be easily confused by the Reapers.  Saving or not saving them isn't particularly naive. 

We don't have a krogan army anymore. If the newer rachni generation or the Queen herself decide to go back on her promise and opt for revenge you will have effectively doomed everyone to death or rachni enslavement.  I know the choices are stupid: kill or let go, but the smartest choice is to eliminate the threat. If Shepard is going to make a choice that can DECIDE THE FATE OF EVERY GALACTIC CITIZEN  your only rational choice is the one that can't possibly end in the destruction of civilization as we know it. Am I really going to endanger the entire galaxy over some personal moral objection?  How selfish and utterly irresponsible. Again, in real life I'd haved turned her over to the council and a team of asari matriarchs could have mind boned her, had some incredible orgasms. had a few unique daughters, learned about what happened during the war and found out her true motives.  But such an ultra rational option was unavailable. 

First, the Rachni, if they go bad, are going to be a far, far smaller threat than before.  They don't have worlds beyond worlds colonized and capable of production.  They wouldn't be the threat they once were.  That's ASSUMING they go bad.  This Rachni is actually talking to you and saying the past ones went crazy.  There's no documentation of being able to communicate with the Rachni before as best I understand it, so this is a very different sort of Rachni.

There's no particular reason to think this Rachni IS a massive threat.  At worst it might become a small threat in the future, but it could also become a small help especially against an enemy that would wipe out all advanced organic life.  Deciding to kill it is largely giving into fear and bigotry and refusing to look or consider the new evidence in front of you.
 

Darkhour wrote...

Does killing Wrex if you can avoid it EVER make sense?  I think not.

It makes since outside a world in which you can sweet talk your way out of anything. Within the confines of the game's mechanics it makes no sense.  There is a matter of trust. In real life, would I expect to just be able to say "trust me" and have a guy toss out all his hopes and dreams come true for his dying people? Doubtful. No heirloom armor or minute of sweet talk is going to sway a person that quickly on an issue of that magnitude. And even if you convince him, will he change his mind while in the facility? Can you risk leaving him on the ship? Maybe he'll take over the Normandy and prevent the bomb drop off? Should I take that chance given what is at stake?

I had played ME1 several times and never even knew Wrex could die for the longest time.  It wasn't until I came to the forums did I find out and even then I figured you had to make a conscious effort to kill him. I was truly surprised that there were people who unintentional got him killed. For me, in 2 out of 6 Shepards he dies, but on purpose for story variation. I prefer paragon choices as much as anyone, but I also know that outside of fiction, paragon Shepard would fail.. HARD.

In real life you make the play to have him trust you and explain your arguments.  You place some trust in him and your friendship and worst-case keep an eye out for him and don't bring him on the mission.  Easy enough.  There's no good reason to kill him in either case (unless in real life you couldn't convince him).  AFAIK, Krogan aren't big on subtlety, so it isn't like he'd hold back and sneak attack you after he gave his word to follow you.

Darkhour wrote...

Regarding the Collector base...seriously?  Cerberus is known to have killed alliance military and attacked colonies for its experiments.  Their "pro-humanity" slogan wears a bit thin.  There's absolutely no reason to trust them as the same guy has been in charge all along.  They clearly brought you back just to use you for their own ends.  Worse, they don't really seem to care when they lose people and they aren't very careful around Reaper technology (no precuations about indoctrination when studying that Reaper vessel).  On what planet does it make sense to trust a shadowy organization that has unclear motives with that kind of technology?

It's not about trusting Cerberus or TIM. It's about the survival of all species.  I'd rather have a Cerberus, and by extension humanity, dominated galaxy than no galaxy at all. There is no option to give the IFF to the Alliance or Council and have them study the base. Your choices: Destroy it and all its secrets (which would logically include detailed technical data on the reapers) and possibly damning all advanced life in the galaxy (with no foreseeable plan B against the reapers).  OR give that potential knowledge to a questionable organization who, despite their faults, make for a better alternative than total destruction. Again, what other option is there if you blow the base to bits? Just hope for the best? Pray to a myriad of gods to save us and hope one answers? Or as Shepard would say, "I'll take em down.. somehow". Somehow? That's not very reassuring. We're going to need more than irrational hope and a holier than thou moral fiber to stop the reapers, 

Renegade choices make far more sense given the limited choices you have and the galactic situation at hand. But, naivity shouldn't be punished 100% either. Sometimes gambling pays off.  I hope there is an upside and downside to decisions as in the examples I mentioned earlier.  It would really water down the story if reckless optimism and virtuosity always prevailed while caution and pragmatism always bite you in the ass.

TIM makes a big deal out of how Cerberus/he IS humanity.  There's no reason to trust an egomaniac like that, especially since he might just decide to go hide for a few hundred years with selected chosen to wait out the Reapers.  A system designed from the ground up could last long enough.

TIM isn't going to give that technology to the Alliance or anyone else, since he doesn't trust humanity's actual military (they might share it with dirty aliens).  The net effect of keeping the Collector Base is not going to be much when we already have Reaper remains that have been extensively studied and have had weapons built designed using them.  The risks on the other hand, are great. Buried programming, booby traps, reaper trojan horses, and indoctrination are real threats besides the fact TIM/Cerberus can't be trusts at all to actually care about the human race as a whole.  It's blind and insane optimism to hope he'll put others before himself or his organization.

There's also Legion's point of view, which is pretty valid, imho.  ME devices were left to make technology evolve along lines the Reapers can predict and control.  Using more Reaper tech isn't going to be throwing the Reapers a big curve ball...what you want is more alien and independently developed technology that they can't predict or account for.  Better to spend intellectual resources on that rather than risk their minds getting indoctrinated or worse on the Collector Base.  Saves a lot of potential harm the indoctrinated scientists could do.


So the choices here basically boil down to:
1.  Save the Council; a small sacrifice on humanity for the galactic good.  You've already stopped Sovereign's plan at this point (as best you know).
2.  Save the Rachni; a small risk from one queen with no industrial resources or planets and a future potential ally against a threat to all organic life.  Even if she goes bad she's not going to be that much of an issue.
3.  Save Wrex; a no brainer.
4.  Destroy the Collector Base; Cerberus does what is best for Cerberus, NOT humanity, despite TIM's lies to the contrary.  It cannot be trusted with the base, which is likely very dangerous anyhow, and the intellectual resources that would be spent studying it are best spent elsewhere.

Modifié par Drachasor, 14 mai 2011 - 11:08 .

[Black Raptor]

Keeping the base is a bad idea. Remember the Reapers seem to have a direct link to that? Harbinger releases control of the collector general, then a few months later he can assume control of the new human occupants and make them do whatever it is he needs.

[Perfecti0nist]

That's why I always go Paragon when it comes to big decisions (And I mean BIG, like the Rachni choice). The only Renegade decision I've made is to give the base to TIM. Oh, and I killed the Council too.

I don't like to kill characters who might come back in the next game. It's just lost content.

Modifié par Perfecti0nist, 14 mai 2011 - 11:57 .

[Ultai]

Perfecti0nist wrote...

I don't like to kill characters who might come back in the next game. It's just lost content.

I understand your reasoning, but the fact that you choose paragon just so you don't lose out on technically more game time and content just shows that the system needs some work.

[88mphSlayer]

Seboist wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

nope, you can pretty much play the entire series just holding the left stick in the upper-right direction and skipping every conversation spamming "X" and get the best ending, only switching to upper-left once in a while

renegade exists simply for the illusion that the game isn't linear

Yeah, Renegade is just for a troll playthrough and completely worthless from a meta perspective.

yep

paragon = bonus content
renegade = removing content

the fact that you didn't even need to play ME1 to experience ME2 from the POV of a renegade was pretty evident that renegade is the lowest of the low path you can take, really the replayability in this franchise is kinda faked a lot of times

[88mphSlayer]

Black Raptor wrote...

Keeping the base is a bad idea. Remember the Reapers seem to have a direct link to that? Harbinger releases control of the collector general, then a few months later he can assume control of the new human occupants and make them do whatever it is he needs.

so use remote controlled robots

(oh wait nobody uses those in the ME universe...)

[Banzboy]

In my main character i just do everything by gut and what i would do in that position. Sometimes i go renegade, sometimes paragon. //SPOILER// I let the council die in ME 1 (because they were assh*les) and humans took over the council, i regret that humans took total control of the council. But it lets me live up to my mistake and if i have the chance in ME 3 i would make the council multi species again.

[Shaun2406]

"There's also Legion's point of view, which is pretty valid, imho. ME devices were left to make technology evolve along lines the Reapers can predict and control. Using more Reaper tech isn't going to be throwing the Reapers a big curve ball...what you want is more alien and independently developed technology that they can't predict or account for. Better to spend intellectual resources on that rather than risk their minds getting indoctrinated or worse on the Collector Base. Saves a lot of potential harm the indoctrinated scientists could do." (Sorry I don't know how to do the box quote thing)...

I find it interesting though, that he was on the derelict reaper to study it, and is perfectly prepared to use the reaper virus to reprogram the heretics (in fact, he slightly favours the choice), both of which involve the repurposing/adaptation of reaper technology... I originally thought he was against ACCEPTING technology from a reaper, not taking and adapting it... But then I save the Collector Base and he's all like 'I hope you don't use it'.

Don't get me wrong, Leigons awesome, but I wish I could've been like 'hypocrite, and I'll worry about humanity 'building its own future' once I'm able to guarantee we'll be able to build a future at all... I'm not sure I'd be keen to reuse reaper technology from the base, the idea was more to study it to better understand the reapers (I mean, its a reaper factory, if you can understand how to build one, you should understand their weaknesses, strenths, reliances and maybe even get a glimpse at their motives)...

Off topic, but I kind of hope theres an option to undergo a mission for the Alliance/Council to retake the Collector Base from Cerberus in ME3 (If you're playing a non pro-human Shephard). The only real reason to give it to Cerberus is that their guaranteed to have the guts to use the stuff, but I'm not sure they'd use it in a way that I'd be completely happy with...

[marshalleck]

No reason to play renegade except for lulz.

Paragon = experience all the content, get the correct outcomes
Renegade = miss out on content and all major decisions work against you

[Ahglock]

Drachasor wrote...


It's indicated that the choice is between sacrificing lives for aliens or not, but winning should result in either case.  You have a whole fleet to take out a Reaper, a couple ships shouldn't make a big difference.  Beyond that, you've already STOPPED its plan at this point as far as you know, since Saren is dead before he finished given Sovereign control of the station (otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by Reapers already).  If Sovereign thought it could just bullrush in and do things by itself, it wouldn't have needed Saren, so it must think that it will die against a fleet of enemy ships.

There's every reason to think the fleet can sacrifice a little to save the Ascension and win the mop-up battle against Sovereign.

I'm going to say I've had 10ish play throughs and not once was it presented to me like that.  Ashly might pop off about aliens, but every other squadmate I've had at that point always points out that Sovereign is the real threat and we can't risk saving the Ascension when the fate of the Galaxy is at hand.  It has never been implied in the slightest that  saving the Ascension is a small sacrifice and its just  a mop up battle at this point.  Every time it has presented to me as saving the Ascension would be nice to do since the council is on board but it will mean we have less of a chance to take down Sovy when even at our best we are unsure we can do it.  Now maybe I've had the wrong squadmates with me at that point, I don;t know butI never got what you are talking about.  

Rachni: hard ot say we don't really have the full information on how fast they breed and spread.  It is fast, but how fast.  A issue for 5 years down the line, 20, 100, 1,000?  I'm always split on this one.  It is said to be a risk to the galaxy, but who knows how far off.  I mean I'd prefer giving her to the council and maybe genophage them or something.  

The collector base, that one is hard for me.  I think it is the smarter choice to save it generaly, but cerberus are such douches I can't really bring myself to do it.  

[Darkhour]

Haven't played Arrival so I can't comment on anything there. For all intents and purposes, Arrivals occurs after the suicide mission. An immininet reaper invasion during the timeline of ME2 main story is just... wrong. Overlord and Shadow Broker, although announced as post game DLC, can still fit understandably within ME2. But Arrival is canonically post suicide mission as far as I'm concerned. 

Paul Grayson was basically a super husk more akin to Saren's frame at the end of ME, albeit with some humanity intact.  His "indoctrination" was the result of having reaper tech directly implanted into his body for the sole purpose of monitoring the effects.  That's alittle different than gradually falling victim to an energy field. His mind was violently and overtly assaulted by the reapers.  Nothing gradual about it. I wouldn't even call his situatuion indoctrination as he wasn't twisted to the point of agreement with the reapers' motives.

Nimrodell wrote...

Develop a countermeasure? How? I mean in such brief time with limited resources when no one is believing you... that is far fetched.

Brief time? You are speaking from hindsight. After the suicide mission, for all we know the reapers won't arrive for another 50 years. They are coming from dark space and Shepard has no reason to think they'll be here anytime soon. Because afterall, if they could simply mossy on in whenever they wanted Soveriegn wouldn't have had to go through the trouble he did.  You say no one believes you, but Cerberus does believe you.  That's why you are working with them because they are the only ones taking the reaper threat seriously. 

[Seboist]

Shaun2406 wrote...

"There's also Legion's point of view, which is pretty valid, imho. ME devices were left to make technology evolve along lines the Reapers can predict and control. Using more Reaper tech isn't going to be throwing the Reapers a big curve ball...what you want is more alien and independently developed technology that they can't predict or account for. Better to spend intellectual resources on that rather than risk their minds getting indoctrinated or worse on the Collector Base. Saves a lot of potential harm the indoctrinated scientists could do." (Sorry I don't know how to do the box quote thing)...

I find it interesting though, that he was on the derelict reaper to study it, and is perfectly prepared to use the reaper virus to reprogram the heretics (in fact, he slightly favours the choice), both of which involve the repurposing/adaptation of reaper technology... I originally thought he was against ACCEPTING technology from a reaper, not taking and adapting it... But then I save the Collector Base and he's all like 'I hope you don't use it'.

Don't get me wrong, Leigons awesome, but I wish I could've been like 'hypocrite, and I'll worry about humanity 'building its own future' once I'm able to guarantee we'll be able to build a future at all... I'm not sure I'd be keen to reuse reaper technology from the base, the idea was more to study it to better understand the reapers (I mean, its a reaper factory, if you can understand how to build one, you should understand their weaknesses, strenths, reliances and maybe even get a glimpse at their motives)...

Off topic, but I kind of hope theres an option to undergo a mission for the Alliance/Council to retake the Collector Base from Cerberus in ME3 (If you're playing a non pro-human Shephard). The only real reason to give it to Cerberus is that their guaranteed to have the guts to use the stuff, but I'm not sure they'd use it in a way that I'd be completely happy with...

Legion is actually one of the squadmates who supports keeping the base when Shepard is discussing whether or not to do so with TIM in the SM. It's after that it develops a mind crush and is against it.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

No reason to play renegade except for lulz.

Paragon = experience all the content, get the correct outcomes
Renegade = miss out on content and all major decisions work against you

i still can't get over the fact that the sacrifice the Council choice is made into a complete joke in ME2. The Paragon choice gets to save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. If that wasn't enough they add salt to the wound by depriving Renegades of seeing the Human dominated Council.

Oh and Cerberus is out to get us no matter what we did or didn't do in ME2. That's just great.

[marshalleck]

Yep, pretty lame. But then Bioware have always struggled when it comes to presenting a comprehensive, cohesive vision of a world or galaxy through any filter other than that of idealistic do-gooders, be they Bhaalspawn, Jedi, Grey Wardens or now Spectres. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Guess I shouldn't be surprised or disappointed since I was indulging false expectations.

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 mai 2011 - 03:14 .

[ExtremeOne]

marshalleck wrote...

Yep, pretty lame. But then Bioware have always struggled when it comes to presenting a comprehensive, cohesive vision of a world or galaxy through any filter other than that of idealistic do-gooders, be they Bhaalspawn, Jedi, Grey Wardens or now Spectres. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Guess I shouldn't be surprised or disappointed since I was indulging false expectations.

    


The only thing Bioware can't screw with is Star Wars . Plus in Star Wars you have a aligment choice and its path . In ME they are so f**king scared to give Shepard a alignment choice . They want him or her to be viewed as a hero . I am so sick of every game having heros and us players being forced to always walk the hero's path .  I bought into the idea that Player Choice in ME will shape your ME games . Its bull sh*t and a lie . Now in ME 3 they are forcing us all down the parago / pro Alliance parth.  

[marshalleck]

Star Wars is the most flagrant offender when it comes to juvenile, black-and-white Good versus Evil, where the good guys are always purely good and the bad guys go around stomping kittens for no other reason than because it makes everyone else feel bad.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Star Wars is the most flagrant offender when it comes to juvenile, black-and-white Good versus Evil, where the good guys are always purely good and the bad guys go around stomping kittens for no other reason than because it makes everyone else feel bad.

Star Wars is at least honest about that, ME on the other hand gives the illusion that both sides are valid when they really aren't. Logical renegade choices end up losing out to Captain Picard style idealism every time.

It's also utter bull**** how they have us liking Cerberus and TIM and giving us every impression that we can work for them, only to have the rug sweeped right under us in ME3. I don't doubt that IF we're able to side with them in ME3, it will be near the end when they've become a complete non-entity.

[ExtremeOne]

marshalleck wrote...

Star Wars is the most flagrant offender when it comes to juvenile, black-and-white Good versus Evil, where the good guys are always purely good and the bad guys go around stomping kittens for no other reason than because it makes everyone else feel bad.

  


At least in Star Wars you as a player make a choice which side to follow . The Jedis are good thats true but they have a code that they live by . The Sith are all about power .  In ME you follow a fake ass path either paragon or renegade . but the problem is paragons are the only ones who make the right choices . how is that  a choice . 

[Darkhour]

[quote]Drachasor wrote...
It's indicated that the choice is between sacrificing lives for aliens or not, but winning should result in either case. [/quote]
No, it isn't. No one there is in any postion to make such an assessment. No one has any experience engaging a reaper in ship to ship combat.



[quote]You have a whole fleet to take out a Reaper, a couple ships shouldn't make a big difference.  [/quote]
You don't know that.  As far as you know Soveriegn is nigh invulnerable.  You are told the combined galactic community uniting against a sole reaper is a winnable conflict, but a single human armada? That is never implied.



[quote]Beyond that, you've already STOPPED its plan at this point as far as you know, since Saren is dead before he finished given Sovereign control of the station (otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by Reapers already).[/quote]
Saren completes his part and hits enter right before you arrive. He states that Soverign is in the process of taking full controll of all Citadel systems. This is while you are chatting it up with Saren and you only have a few minutes remaining before he has full control. Once Saren is taken out of the picture and you use Vigil's program you've paused the reaper's plan. Vigil's program only gains temporary control of the citadel. Soveriegn would have been able to hit play and continued to assert control over the Citadel eventually. Otherwise, Soveriegn would have simply up and left; Lived to fight another day or just waited it out until the reapers came the long way. 



[quote]  If Sovereign thought it could just bullrush in and do things by itself, it wouldn't have needed Saren, so it must think that it will die against a fleet of enemy ships.[/quote]
What Soveriegn knows about its own capabilities is irrelevant. What matters is what Shepard knows, or more importantly, doesn't know. He knows this thing is the biggest ship he's ever seen and it has enough power to land on and take off from a planet effortlessly. He knows it's way more advanced than anything the citadel races have and he knows that a unified galaxy would be too much for a single reaper. Does Shepard know that the 5th fleet alone can win against the reaper? No, he hopes they can. And if he's smart he will maximize his chances by throwing everythig he can at it because he does not know how much it will take to win. After Soveriegn is destroyed, he does. Beforehand, he doesn't. You act like the Alliance showed up thinking victory was assured before the first shot ever got fired.  If Hackett wasn't there they mighy have gave up and retreated,




[quote]First, the Rachni, if they go bad, are going to be a far, far smaller threat than before.  They don't have worlds beyond worlds colonized and capable of production.  They wouldn't be the threat they once were. [/quote]
You irrationally assuming that if they are going to attack they are going to attack immediately. Even the turian councelor says it is our grandchildren who would suffer if Shepard is wrong. Seeing as the queen has ancestrial memory she know how to build ships and in ME2 you hear about rachni ships being spotted so they aren't wasting any time. If the **** ever hit the fan the citadel races could not keep up with their numbers. They, like the krogan, breed too fast. But we don;t have our own fast breeding, quick maturing race to counter them anymore.



[quote]Deciding to kill it is largely giving into fear and bigotry and refusing to look or consider the new evidence in front of you.[/quote] 
You've provided no evidence that the Rachni queen is being genuine with you. You have simply decided to take her word for it and that is your right. However, her claims can't be used as evidence of her truthfulness.  She could have been lying. She could be telling the truth she might not be. Who knows, right? All we know is that they attacked the other races on sight and would not negotiate. We know their birthrate and sheer numbers alone made them unstoppable. We know that the combined citadel races could not defeat them. We know that only a equally fast breeding race (that we do not have) could spot them. And you think it's wise to restore that force to the galaxy because one of the rachni says, "I promise to be nice". Sorry, buddy, but that fear is warranted. I'm not going to take that risk just because I have qualms about killing a single person.  Your placing a single being's life over the entire galaxy. That is reckless and irresponsible. No way way around it.

If I use hindsight, it's an even dumber idea to spare her.  If the reapers can just send a oily tone through the "high spaces" and not even require close proximity to rachni to indoctrinate their whole society what exactly is going to stop them from simply indoctrinating them all over again?



[quote]In real life you make the play to have him trust you and explain your arguments.  You place some trust in him and your friendship and worst-case keep an eye out for him and don't bring him on the mission.  Easy enough.[/quote]
"Keep an eye out for him"? LOL!!!

So he kills the crew on the Normandy if you don't take him and the mission fails. Or you bring him with you and he shoots you while you're fighting another krogan and then sides with Saren. Friend, you don't bring people you don't trust into combat. If you have to keep an eye out for someone, they should't have a gun in the first place. As a military veteran I find it laughable that you would even suggest such a ridiculous thing in a "real life" situation. Imagine for a second that you have a POW who has been behaving amicably and says he'll play nice. Now imagine removing any restraints, giving him a loaded weapon and vowing to keep an eye on him while you're in an active combat environment. That made me laugh.



[quote]There's no good reason to kill him in either case (unless in real life you couldn't convince him).  AFAIK, Krogan aren't big on subtlety, so it isn't like he'd hold back and sneak attack you after he gave his word to follow you.[/quote]
I've already stated that within the confines of a fictional game world there is no reason to kill him. In real life , however, if temporary confinement was not an option and the fate of the galaxy was at stake, yes, I'd kill him. He's be an unacceptable risk. You are saying that with the ENTIRE GALAXY AT STAKE you'd willingly accept a risk that could lead to failure. *sigh* I'm glad it's just fiction and the galaxy isn't in your hands.



[quote]TIM makes a big deal out of how Cerberus/he IS humanity.  There's no reason to trust an egomaniac like that, especially since he might just decide to go hide for a few hundred years with selected chosen to wait out the Reapers.  A system designed from the ground up could last long enough.[/quote]
I'm going to ignore the fact that your statement was baseless and completely out of nowhere. So, let him run and hide. That's no different an outcome than simply blowing it up.  You get nothing out of the base either way, but keeping the base gives tangible hope vs baseless hope.



[quote]TIM isn't going to give that technology to the Alliance or anyone else, since he doesn't trust humanity's actual military (they might share it with dirty aliens).  The net effect of keeping the Collector Base is not going to be much when we already have Reaper remains that have been extensively studied and have had weapons built designed using them.  The risks on the other hand, are great. Buried programming, booby traps, reaper trojan horses, and indoctrination are real threats besides the fact TIM/Cerberus can't be trusts at all to actually care about the human race as a whole.  It's blind and insane optimism to hope he'll put others before himself or his organization.[/quote]
Now who is basing his decision off of fear and bigotry? You're being alittle hypocritical aren't you? The rachni threat which was far greater than Cerberus is OK to risk letting loose, but giving Cerberus technology that you believe is irrelevant anyway because the turians have already studied soveriegn's remains is too dangerous? But you have no problem putting the fruits of that turian tech on a Cerberus ship that TIM is actively monitoring, in effect giving him that reaper based tech? Come again?



[quote]There's also Legion's point of view, which is pretty valid, imho.  ME devices were left to make technology evolve along lines the Reapers can predict and control.  Using more Reaper tech isn't going to be throwing the Reapers a big curve ball...what you want is more alien and independently developed technology that they can't predict or account for.  Better to spend intellectual resources on that rather than risk their minds getting indoctrinated or worse on the Collector Base.  Saves a lot of potential harm the indoctrinated scientists could do.[/quote]
Yet you have no viable alternative. Just empty words and irrational hope that everything will just work out for the best if you stay positive. You act like the citadel races can just ask a wizard to wave his wand and make them some unique ultra adavanced technology unlike anything they currently have. Does that sound as absurd to you as it does to me? 

Modifié par Darkhour, 15 mai 2011 - 05:03 .

[marshalleck]

Darkhour wrote...
Yet you have no viable alternative. Just empty words and irrational hope that everything will just work out for the best if you stay positive. You act like the citadel races can just ask a wizard to wave his wand and make them some unique ultra adavanced technology unlike anything they currently have. Does that sound as absurd to you as it does to me?

 

Probably not, because as a Paragon/Light side guy he's used to having the best possible outcome handed to him as a reward for positive thinking and assumptions. 

[Bluefuse]

This is because in real life you will accomplish nothing in the end by being a dick. This is a reflection of reality. This is how it should be.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 15 mai 2011 - 05:00 .

[marshalleck]

Bluefuse wrote...

This is because in real life you will accomplish nothing in the end by being a dick. This is a reflection of reality. This is how it should be.

You must have lived a very sheltered life. Good for you. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 mai 2011 - 05:01 .

[Seboist]

I wouldn't lose sleep over the Rachni choice either way. Now that TIM and Harbinger are drinking buddies they'll roll out cloned Cerberus Rachni if the Queen is dead.

[marshalleck]

Yeah, there's no way the rachni husks are only going to feature in ME3 for people who spared the queen. They'll  be there whether you killed her or not, guaranteed. So much for that so-called "paragon consequence."

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 mai 2011 - 05:05 .