[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]Drachasor wrote...
It's indicated that the choice is between sacrificing lives for aliens or not, but winning should result in either case. [/quote]
No, it isn't. No one there is in any postion to make such an assessment. No one has any experience engaging a reaper in ship to ship combat.[/quote]
Yes it is, if you actually stop to think about it. While your companions OBVIOUSLY don't see the big picture, the fact is that Sovereign could have done this 100 years ago, but didn't. There are a couple times in the game where it is pointed out a fleet could take out Sovereign which is why he's held back. He might be stronger than any one ship, but he's not stronger than a whole fleet. Just because your companions can't figure that out doesn't mean the player can't.
This is backed up by Sovereign's actions to a tremendous degree. He slowly waits until he has a whole fleet to go with him. He doesn't think that's sufficient to keep him safe, so he also closes the Citadel so that no one can attack him until reinforcements arrive. He clearly doesn't think he's safe at all from conventional forces.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]Beyond that, you've already STOPPED its plan at this point as far as you know, since Saren is dead before he finished given Sovereign control of the station (otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by Reapers already).[/quote]
Saren completes his part and hits enter right before you arrive. He states that Soverign is in the process of taking full controll of all Citadel systems. This is while you are chatting it up with Saren and you only have a few minutes remaining before he has full control. Once Saren is taken out of the picture and you use Vigil's program you've paused the reaper's plan. Vigil's program only gains temporary control of the citadel. Soveriegn would have been able to hit play and continued to assert control over the Citadel eventually. Otherwise, Soveriegn would have simply up and left; Lived to fight another day or just waited it out until the reapers came the long way. [/quote]
If Sovereign could do stuff without intermediaries, then he wouldn't get intermediaries. By the time you make the call you HAVE stopped Sovereign from inputting data into the system and he's out of little minions to do it for him. That is your knowledge as far as you know it, because you don't expect Saren to jump up and start fighting again (though even if you do, you might feel confidant you could take it out).
Sovereign's big tentacles can't work a keyboard, so he's out of luck when it comes to fixing what you've done. That's the whole reason why he has agents like Saren.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote] If Sovereign thought it could just bullrush in and do things by itself, it wouldn't have needed Saren, so it must think that it will die against a fleet of enemy ships.[/quote]
What Soveriegn knows about its own capabilities is irrelevant. What matters is what Shepard knows, or more importantly, doesn't know. He knows this thing is the biggest ship he's ever seen and it has enough power to land on and take off from a planet effortlessly. He knows it's way more advanced than anything the citadel races have and he knows that a unified galaxy would be too much for a single reaper. Does Shepard know that the 5th fleet alone can win against the reaper? No, he hopes they can. And if he's smart he will maximize his chances by throwing everythig he can at it because he does not know how much it will take to win. After Soveriegn is destroyed, he does. Beforehand, he doesn't. You act like the Alliance showed up thinking victory was assured before the first shot ever got fired. If Hackett wasn't there they mighy have gave up and retreated, [/quote]
You can infer what Sovereign thinks of its own capabilities by how it behaves. Or you could choose to not bother to try to think about what the enemy is thinking. The latter would lead you to sacrifice the Council, I agree. It isn't like we are EVER told what Sovereign is thinking either, my argument here is based off what is said in the game at various points and Sovereigns actions. There's every reason a smart Shepherd could reason that out.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]First, the Rachni, if they go bad, are going to be a far, far smaller threat than before. They don't have worlds beyond worlds colonized and capable of production. They wouldn't be the threat they once were. [/quote]
You irrationally assuming that if they are going to attack they are going to attack immediately. Even the turian councelor says it is our grandchildren who would suffer if Shepard is wrong. Seeing as the queen has ancestrial memory she know how to build ships and in ME2 you hear about rachni ships being spotted so they aren't wasting any time. If the **** ever hit the fan the citadel races could not keep up with their numbers. They, like the krogan, breed too fast. But we don;t have our own fast breeding, quick maturing race to counter them anymore.[/quote]
Oh, I don't dobut they'll be able to build ships, just that there's no significant threat for a long time. Even 100 years isn't enough to recover from being reduced to 1 Queen. If it was, then the Rachni would have dominated the universe long before the first Rachni wars just by simple expansion due to an ever growing population.
Further, the former Rachni space is gone as I understand the story, so there just isn't as much room to expand in secret. Long before the whole grandchildren bit comes up, the Rachni will have to make nice or start a war.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]Deciding to kill it is largely giving into fear and bigotry and refusing to look or consider the new evidence in front of you.[/quote]
You've provided no evidence that the Rachni queen is being genuine with you. You have simply decided to take her word for it and that is your right. However, her claims can't be used as evidence of her truthfulness. She could have been lying. She could be telling the truth she might not be. Who knows, right? All we know is that they attacked the other races on sight and would not negotiate. We know their birthrate and sheer numbers alone made them unstoppable. We know that the combined citadel races could not defeat them. We know that only a equally fast breeding race (that we do not have) could spot them. And you think it's wise to restore that force to the galaxy because one of the rachni says, "I promise to be nice". Sorry, buddy, but that fear is warranted. I'm not going to take that risk just because I have qualms about killing a single person. Your placing a single being's life over the entire galaxy. That is reckless and irresponsible. No way way around it.[/quote]
Again, it's idiotic to act like the Rachni are going to be capable of wiping anyone one out. They just won't have the numbers and before they could possibly get the numbers, they'll lose the secrecy. It is giving in to fear and bigotry to assume the Rachni must be lying and that one queen is some unstoppable force. Heck, it isn't even like you kept it a secret you saved her, you told the Council. The galactic community will be ready to deal with them, one way or another.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]In real life you make the play to have him trust you and explain your arguments. You place some trust in him and your friendship and worst-case keep an eye out for him and don't bring him on the mission. Easy enough.[/quote]
"Keep an eye out for him"? LOL!!!
So he kills the crew on the Normandy if you don't take him and the mission fails. Or you bring him with you and he shoots you while you're fighting another krogan and then sides with Saren. Friend, you don't bring people you don't trust into combat. If you have to keep an eye out for someone, they should't have a gun in the first place. As a military veteran I find it laughable that you would even suggest such a ridiculous thing in a "real life" situation. Imagine for a second that you have a POW who has been behaving amicably and says he'll play nice. Now imagine removing any restraints, giving him a loaded weapon and vowing to keep an eye on him while you're in an active combat environment. That made me laugh.[/quote]
Again, Krogan have a sense of honor, Wrex certainly does. There's no reason to think he'd just toss away his entire sense of self when he style would be a more direct confrontation. As for making trouble on the Normandy, you have a bunch of other strong fighters there (assuming you aren't a paranoid ****** who doesn't recruit aliens), and he can't take them all on. But again, that would be massively out of character for him to do so.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]TIM makes a big deal out of how Cerberus/he IS humanity. There's no reason to trust an egomaniac like that, especially since he might just decide to go hide for a few hundred years with selected chosen to wait out the Reapers. A system designed from the ground up could last long enough.[/quote]
I'm going to ignore the fact that your statement was baseless and completely out of nowhere. So, let him run and hide. That's no different an outcome than simply blowing it up. You get nothing out of the base either way, but keeping the base gives tangible hope vs baseless hope. [/quote]
He runs in hide and leaves a base that probably will indoctrinate people all day. Or he just uses the technology for himself in other ways, callously killing any humans that get in the way of him with his superior tech. Again, this guy isn't remotely trustworthy. He's used to dealing with people and lying (unlike say, a Rachni queen), so why exactly do you trust him so much?
This is a guy that's lied and manipulated you from day 1 and has overseen horrible experiments done on humans just for the sake of curiosity. His toadies might buy that he's a friend of humanity, but there's no reason to believe that...especially when he tends to go off on egocentric rants.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]TIM isn't going to give that technology to the Alliance or anyone else, since he doesn't trust humanity's actual military (they might share it with dirty aliens). The net effect of keeping the Collector Base is not going to be much when we already have Reaper remains that have been extensively studied and have had weapons built designed using them. The risks on the other hand, are great. Buried programming, booby traps, reaper trojan horses, and indoctrination are real threats besides the fact TIM/Cerberus can't be trusts at all to actually care about the human race as a whole. It's blind and insane optimism to hope he'll put others before himself or his organization.[/quote]
Now who is basing his decision off of fear and bigotry? You're being alittle hypocritical aren't you? The rachni threat which was far greater than Cerberus is OK to risk letting loose, but giving Cerberus technology that you believe is irrelevant anyway because the turians have already studied soveriegn's remains is too dangerous? But you have no problem putting the fruits of that turian tech on a Cerberus ship that TIM is actively monitoring, in effect giving him that reaper based tech? Come again?[/quote]
I'll grant this is fear, but this isn't like the Rachni situation. First, you KNOW TIM to be untrustworthy. That's demonstrated to you in the game. This isn't about giving TIM's son a chance or something, this is about trusting a guy that repeatedly lies to you and has overseen horrific experiments on humans in ME1.
As for the Thannix cannon, if I had various options on how to upgrade my ship, rather then "this is the only weapon upgrade available", then I'd go with stuff that wasn't reliant on Reaper tech. I'm not given that choice, and a massive, massive upgrade therefore has to be taken.
There's also a big difference between studying Sovereign's remains and the Collector Base. Sovereign is in little tiny pieces. The Collector Base is still in one piece. We know even a Reaper Ship that's 37 million years old can still indoctrinate if it is left mostly intact, and as such there is every reason to view the Collector Base with a lot of suspicion. Of course, TIM doesn't care about people getting indoctrinated, because he doesn't take step 1 to ensure it doesn't happen to the science team studying the Reaper ship. So he's either incompetent (seems unlikely), or he wants people to get indoctrinated (possible). Either way, he doesn't spend his scientific resources very well, and discoveries he makes he doesn't share with others.
Potential benefits of giving a Collector Base to someone that doesn't share technology with anyone else? Small. Potential risks of given a fully intact Reaper Artifact over to a guy who is going to fill it with people? Quite significant given indoctrination. Overall the risk assessment favors blowing it up.
[quote]Darkhour wrote...
[quote]There's also Legion's point of view, which is pretty valid, imho. ME devices were left to make technology evolve along lines the Reapers can predict and control. Using more Reaper tech isn't going to be throwing the Reapers a big curve ball...what you want is more alien and independently developed technology that they can't predict or account for. Better to spend intellectual resources on that rather than risk their minds getting indoctrinated or worse on the Collector Base. Saves a lot of potential harm the indoctrinated scientists could do.[/quote]
Yet you have no viable alternative. Just empty words and irrational hope that everything will just work out for the best if you stay positive. You act like the citadel races can just ask a wizard to wave his wand and make them some unique ultra adavanced technology unlike anything they currently have. Does that sound as absurd to you as it does to me?
[/quote]
It's hardly irrational to think that the Council Races aren't secretly studying the remains of Sovereign for ways to take out a ship like that in the future, especially when you know they are studying it. It's hardly blind hope to not believe Mr. LiarMcLiarPants on his anti-alliance anti-alien rants. Taking TIM's word for anything without question is ridiculously foolish.
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