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[Dean_the_Young]

My position: not really. So long as they have the skills to succede, they don't even need to be combat capable.

Now, do you feel Spectres should be crack commandoes or combat experts ala Shepard?


Now, some context: a derivative of the 'Shouldn't Spectres be biotic?' thread, in which I raised an argument about how they didn't need to be even combat agents, let alone biotics, but I felt the first idea is worth its own thread.

For some of the points raised in that thread, read below:


[quote]
[quote]Drachasor wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spectres don't even need to be combat experts, so why require them to be biotics?[/quote]

Hmm, is that so? I don't know of any Spectres or potential spectres that weren't combat experts.

Seems like the requirements for a Spectre are:
1. Ability to Kick Ass
2. Brains (Ability to figure out what ass to kick)
3. Covert (So you can get past security and not be seen when you need to do something under the radar)
4. Good judgement and integrity (since they act independently)

None of that requires biotics, but Spectres seem to have to be able to fight really well in some way.
[/quote]Even back in the ME1 Codex, it was always mentioned that there are violent Spectres and diplomats. Integrity is actually one of the things the Council cares least about: Spectre corruption, as indicated by Saren pre-Eden Prime and the head of C-SEC, is rampant, as Shepard can also demonstrate.


The only thing about Spectres that the Council cares about is a Spectres ability to get results. And... that's it. How a Spectre gets results is left entirely to the Spectre in question. You can kick ass or have a silver tongue or any other combination. Saren was known to get other people to do his work for him: mercs to attack vessels, or even the Geth to attack Eden Prime. The only violence Saren needed to do on Eden Prime was shoot Nihlus from behind.

Shepard can't help but to kick ass and kill no matter the path... but that doesn't mean all Spectres have to be uncouth barbarians capable or of kicking down the gates. Once you start seeing the fist as the tool of choice, that's naturally what you're going to resort to more and more quickly. If they don't need to, and can get it done other ways, that's what the Council cares about.

Spectres are problem solvers, but the means by which they solve problems is irrelevant to the Council. A silver-tongued Volus hacker with superb contacts and bribing skills would make just as valid a Spectre as Shepard if he could resolve problems the Council cares about.
[/quote]
[quote]
[quote]Lapis Lazuli wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spectres don't even need to be combat experts, so why require them to be biotics?[/quote]

very interesting thought.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spectres are problem solvers, but the means by which they solve problems is irrelevant to the Council. A silver-tongued Volus hacker with superb contacts and bribing skills would make just as valid a Spectre as Shepard if he could resolve problems the Council cares about.

[/quote]

But let's go back to the OP. I probably should've titled this thread "Shouldn't the council favor biotics as spectres?" because I'm not talking about requiring biotics.
[/quote]And to your re-titled question, my answer would still be 'no.' The Spectres, and the Council, aren't looking for people who have the most potential to do damage. The Spectres isn't even a military force in the first place: there are roughly a hundred Spectres at the high ends, not some massive trained force.

The Council is looking for people with proven histories of being able to achieve results and not fail. People who would fit that category prove so because of a history of success well before they ever become a Spectre, and success is independent on biotic ability (which come with severe drawbacks in the lore: biotics are often glass canons in terms of power and endurance). Biotics aren't simply some add-on power booster that can be slapped on anyone without cost, they're a specialty training that requires tradeoffs in what won't be trained: a good biotic won't have the specialty training to master all the weapons, or the time to invest in tech mastery. Biotics are not, and have never been, an 'I win' card, in lore or practice. And at the level of success we're talking about here, the people with biotics who would succede are pretty much the same sort of mindsets that would succede without biotics.

Spectres are chosen based on success and nothing else (besides politics, in Shepard's case). Biotics are only important in so much that biotics allow that person to succede: if that person can succede on the strength of their weapon mastery (soldiers) or tech skills (engineers) or diplomacy (ambassadorial figures), the success is what interests the Council. Nothing more, and nothing less.


[quote]
IMO the resume of a problem-solver who can hardly survive any combat
situation should be viewed with scepticism. I think that applies to all
the physically non-adept species including volus, hanar and elcor. I
think an observer like Nihlus is customary to recommend candidates? He
would have to observe a lot of adaptiblity in a candidate, and sometimes
there are unavoidable combat situations.[/quote]Except there wouldn't have to be (especially if their skill is avoiding direct combat), and again you're fixating on the idea that the Spectre, him or herself, has to be the fighter (as opposed to hired muscle supplementing any combat needs if ever needed). Don't look at the Spectres at a military force: that's not what they are in the first place, yet judging them by military standards will of course fixate on military virtues.

If the resume of someone who doesn't engage in physical combat gets to the Spectre level, that's a resume of someone who has a proven history of getting results despite lacking combat. This isn't some fresh-eyed idealist who talks about how we should all get along and then hopes others will agree: this would be someone with an extensive history of support for their ability to succede without violence even when/if violence would have been an obvious solution. They could do this by trickery, by bribery, by hacking or magificent-bastard levels of xanatos gambits. Whatever works, works.

The most frightening Spectre of all would be one who's never had to kill in the line of duty because he or she is simply so skilled in other approaches that he or she hasn't even needed to. Far short of that would be someone who successfully avoids fights him/herself and then hires someone else to do whatever fighting is required.[/quote]

[quote][quote]Lapis Lazuli wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
The most frightening Spectre of all would be one who's never had to kill in the line of duty because he or she is simply so skilled in other approaches that he or she hasn't even needed to. Far short of that would be someone who successfully avoids fights him/herself and then hires someone else to do whatever fighting is required.
[/quote]

I think it would severely limit the kinds of missions that the spectre could carry out. And using people to work for him is effective unless the people working for him have to themselves have the skill level of spectres because of the difficulty of the mission. That's undue convolution.
[/quote]Shepard recruits the best of the best fighters in ME2, but I wouldn't conclude that many (or, indeed, any) of them would qualify for the Spectres. Again, you're fixating on a combat point of view, which isn't what the Spectres are about. Combat forces are a means to an end.

The Spectres aren't sent on missions. At no point in ME1 was Shepard ever given a directive of the Council of 'you will assault virmire at X000 hours at blah-blah-blah, etc. etc. etc.

Spectres are given objectives, and then left to their own devices to solve them.

Shepard, a Spectre drawn from the Alliance military (and a combat specialist for gameplay reasons), pursues these in combat ways. But while these are acceptable alternatives, they aren't the only alternatives or appoaches for dealing with problerms. Except for gameplay reasons, Shepard was never even under any obligation to actually go to the story-mission planets: if Shepard were able to find Saren by, say, purchasing the location from the Shadow Broker, and then tip off an Alliance fleet to Saren's location and be able to capture/kill him... that, too, would have been entirely acceptable.


There is something to be said about how you wouldn't want to send a pacifist spectre to a combat-intensive objective... but the same applies in reverse. Things blow up around Shepard, and you certainly wouldn't want to send a Renegade Shepard to a delicate negotiations of galactic importance.

Spectres are tools. Different tools excel for different problems. The things about Spectres is that they can succede despite obstacles, whether that's by blowing them up (Shepard) or circumventing them entirely (a diplomat/hacker/briber/manipulator).


Don't think of the Spectres as a crack commando team. They aren't, even if Shepard is a crack commando. Rather, think of the Spectres as the Courier from Fallout: New Vegas. As long as the package (or the side quest) gets done, that's all they care about. Whether you avoid every fight you can and leave a companion to handle the fighting, or whether you are a kick-ass space marine, it's your ability to complete the mission at any cost (or no cost) that matters.
[/quote]





Thoughts?

[corporal doody]

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

And if they can handle themselves by diplomacy, bribery, and hired muscle? 

[darknoon5]

Even if a spectre has specilisation in an area such as hacking, diplomacy, spying etc. I'd genuinely be surprised if there is a single spectre without some form of advanced combat training, which is re-inforced by the fac that out of the four races spectres can/are chosen from, one has manditory military service and another are all biotics. I'm pretty sure the brunt of the spectres are turians, with a few asari and a handful of salarians. Most salarian undercover operatives are likely to be reserved for STG. Besides Shep and (spoilers!) Ash/Kaidan, there are no other human spectre's.

Spectre's also are used a threat, shown by Saren in revelation.

I'm not saying there aren't spectres that specialize in certain areas, but it would be silly to send an undercover agent in with no combat training when you could send somebody just as qualified who could also take down a whole platoon. There are (or at least it is theorized) under 100 spectres in existence, so they obviously have to be the best of the best. Garrus' also talks of special spectre training. How were they singled out? Iirc, from the army.

Dean, a spectre should be able to rely on themselves. Hired muscle, bribery etc. is not reliable. As Wrex says "I don't like to rely on other people." There is likely going to be circumstances where a spectre's cover has the risk of being blown. What if the the hired muscle are all killed? Does the heroic Volus turn and fight, or waddle away?

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 mai 2011 - 02:57 .

[corporal doody]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

And if they can handle themselves by diplomacy, bribery, and hired muscle? 

ANY SITUATION.  
 why would the Council make them spectres if diplomacy was the answer...thats what diplomats are for. why make someone a spectre so they can hire mercs...why wouldnt the council just hire mercs. and bribery? i dunno bout that.

Spectres are the first and last line of defense. Spectres are about mission accomplishment by any means necessary. Shake a few hands, cap a few a**es. whatever. Spectres need to know how to handle themselves in a rough and tumble world. Poindexter DeskJockey aint gonna get the job done...if he could...there wouldnt be need for a spectre

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

Even if a spectre has specilisation in an area such as hacking, diplomacy, spying etc. I'd genuinely be surprised if there is a single spectre without some form of advanced combat training, which is re-inforced by the fac that out of the four races spectres can/are chosen from, one has manditory military service and another are all biotics. I'm pretty sure the brunt of the spectres are turians, with a few asari and a handful of salarians. Most salarian undercover operatives are likely to be reserved for STG. Besides Shep and (spoilers!) Ash/Kaidan, there are no other human spectre's.

There's never been any claim that Spectres are only drawn from the Council races (or, in Humanity's case, a race everyone knew would soon be on the Council). Spectres don't have to come from races that are in the Council.

Spectre's also are used a threat, shown by Saren in revelation.

Spectres can be used as a threat, but more specifically they're used to show Council interest. The nature of the interest would always depend on the nature of the Spectre in question: sending Paragon Sole-Survivor Spectre Shepard to attend negotiations with the Batarians would be entirely different than Renegade Butcher of Torfan.

I'm not saying there aren't spectres that specialize in certain areas, but it would be silly to send an undercover agent in with no combat training when you could send somebody just as qualified who could also take down a whole platoon. There are (or at least it is theorized) under 100 spectres in existence, so they obviously have to be the best of the best. Garrus' also talks of special spectre training. How were they singled out? Iirc, from the army.

'Qualified' is always relative. How qualified would, say, Renegade Shepard be in a diplomatic environment? Even a Paragon Shepard has a nasty tendency towards blowing things up, as befits an action hero.

'Being able to handle yourself undercover' doesn't require being a kick-ass space marine. Spies focus on never being seen, and even deep-infiltration special forces prioritize never having to fight over being able to fight (which, when they have to, is usually when it goes dreadfully wrong.


Heck, Shepard rather proves that Spectres don't have to travel solo either.

[eternalnightmare13]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

And if they can handle themselves by diplomacy, bribery, and hired muscle? 

Diplomacy and bribery only go so far.  Eventually you'll run into someone(s) that are zealots and despise your race, The Council, or etc to such an extent that no amount of sweet talk or cred chits will appease them.  You HAVE to fight sometime and you need to be able to fight, whether it be biotic/tech/ or a soldier.  You can't brow beat everyone in the galaxy.  What happens if you run into a pack of verran or those giant spider things in ME2, sorry don't recall the name, and you backed into a corner?

Hired muscle?  I wouldn't trust anyone who follows my orders only if the credits keep flowing.  Mercs are no where as loyal as Garrus.  They're too interested in making a profit, and not willing to take the big risks you need when facing Saren or the Collectors.  Plus, if you start earning a rep of getting your hired thugs killed then good luck getting more down the road.  You may point at Zaeed as an example of merc, but he's an exception.  Plus, it took TIM to drop a boat load of creds to get him to agree.  I have my doubts he'll even return to ME3 cause what's his motivation?  Who's going to pay him?  Why would he care about the entire galaxy, and not just run to his personal bunker and try to ride out the storm?  

A Spectre needs to be proficent at a diverse amount of skills, and have the X factor.  Something that sets him or her apart from a regular grunt in the military or paper pusher in C-Sec.  

[darknoon5]

Er dean, the games and books make it clear that even though spectres can come from any race, they are only picked from council races. Shepard was an exception, but as he himself can admit in a renegade dialog option, it was the council throwing humanity a bone.

"'Being able to handle yourself undercover' doesn't require being a kick-ass space marine. Spies focus on never being seen, and even deep-infiltration special forces prioritize never having to fight over being able to fight (which, when they have to, is usually when it goes dreadfully wrong."

No, but it does require being able to fight in some capacity. Usually quite advanced training.

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

And if they can handle themselves by diplomacy, bribery, and hired muscle?

Diplomacy and bribery only go so far. Eventually you'll run into someone(s) that are zealots and despise your race, The Council, or etc to such an extent that no amount of sweet talk or cred chits will appease them. You HAVE to fight sometime and you need to be able to fight, whether it be biotic/tech/ or a soldier. You can't brow beat everyone in the galaxy. What happens if you run into a pack of verran or those giant spider things in ME2, sorry don't recall the name, and you backed into a corner?

Hired muscle? I wouldn't trust anyone who follows my orders only if the credits keep flowing. Mercs are no where as loyal as Garrus. They're too interested in making a profit, and not willing to take the big risks you need when facing Saren or the Collectors. Plus, if you start earning a rep of getting your hired thugs killed then good luck getting more down the road. You may point at Zaeed as an example of merc, but he's an exception. Plus, it took TIM to drop a boat load of creds to get him to agree. I have my doubts he'll even return to ME3 cause what's his motivation? Who's going to pay him? Why would he care about the entire galaxy, and not just run to his personal bunker and try to ride out the storm?

A Spectre needs to be proficent at a diverse amount of skills, and have the X factor. Something that sets him or her apart from a regular grunt in the military or paper pusher in C-Sec.

This is a good post. As I said, a spectre needs to be able to rely on themselves. Shepard would have died a long time ago if he hadn't been able to. Not that I'm saying Shep is the model spectre, just using it as an example of where combat training was useful.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

ANY SITUATION. 

Clearly Shepard survived so well in the situation of a vacuume of space.. [/sarcasm]

Being able to reliably and capably avoid any situation is as effective as being able to break out of it. Shepard demonstrates this every time Shepard can Paragon/Renegade persuade their way out of a fight: whether they fought or not, they got past and got through. They didn't need to engage in a needless battle.

 why would the Council make them spectres if diplomacy was the answer...thats what diplomats are for. why make someone a spectre so they can hire mercs...why wouldnt the council just hire mercs. and bribery? i dunno bout that.

Because Spectres are successful. You might as well ask what are the armies and special forces are for if we have Commander Shepard. Shepard is a soldier, but more importantly Shepard is a soldier who is very successful at what he/she does. But soldiers are just one means to an end: diplomats are another. Spectres aren't a replacement or a denounciation of the tools of state: Spectres are the best of the best of the tools of state.

Spectres have never been denied allies if they so choose to pursue them. Shepard himself crafts and relies on teams in both games. Tela Vasir allied herself to the Shadow Broker, a part in making her a successful Spectre. Saren recruited mercenaries to spread his efforts long before he went rogue, and the only violence required of him in the assault on eden prime was a shot to the back.

Spectres are the first and last line of defense. Spectres are about mission accomplishment by any means necessary. Shake a few hands, cap a few a**es. whatever. Spectres need to know how to handle themselves in a rough and tumble world. Poindexter DeskJockey aint gonna get the job done...if he could...there wouldnt be need for a spectre

I think you miss the point. Not being a space marine doesn't make you a poindester deskjockey. But there are other ways to solve problems besides fighting personally, and there are people who excell at them just as Shepard excells at fighting.

Consider the context of Fallout: Vegas. The Courier is tasked with completing objectives. How those objectives is left entirely to the Courier, and the player. You can kill everything that stands in your way, or you can sneak around them. You can barter or banter past people, or you can pick locks and hack computers. You can be the biggest combat badass in the wasteland, or let your companions do the fighting for you.

So long as the Courier succedes, the 'how' doesn't matter. It's the Courier's proven ability to succede that gathers the reputation, not the means they do so.

[naledgeborn]

A Volus Spectre specializing in hacking and throwing Xanatos Gambits left and right would sure be a spectacle to behold. Now I can't help but wanting to see this.

Also in my head the ideal Spectre would be a Salarian "Sentinel" if you want to mix gameplay with lore. Salarians attract little martial attention as opposed to other physically adept races. The Salarian Sentinel would rely on it's technological expertise for subterfuge and bypassing defenses while doing it's best to avoid combat during covert operations. When a combat situation becomes inevitable it'd fall back on it's Biotic training to incapacitate hostiles. Why Biotics? Bad guy is looking for a gun not a biotic implant or amplifier.

[corporal doody]

i dont know why you making a wall of text.
you asked:
do you feel Spectres should be crack commandoes or combat experts ala Shepard?
my answer...YES. nothing is gonna change that

[Siegdrifa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

And if they can handle themselves by diplomacy, bribery, and hired muscle?

What you write may be the border line that separate when specters come into play.

From ME1, it is said "when specter show off, peacefull solution are long gone".
I take is as "bribery", diplomacy and all attemp to fix the problem wiht no fight are supposed to come before specters appear.
I conclude that specter are free to resolve, if they can, problem without blood shed, but are expected at this point to handle dangerous situation that will result in a hard fight.

So, imo yes, specter must be deadly and experienced battle master / cammando, call them when you want, but with extraordinary fighting skill to survive and make the fight turn in the best intrest of the galactic peace.

I might had that being deadly in combat are not the only aspect to be recruited to the specters, if it was the case, any mercenary would fit the role.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 14 mai 2011 - 03:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Diplomacy and bribery only go so far.  Eventually you'll run into someone(s) that are zealots and despise your race, The Council, or etc to such an extent that no amount of sweet talk or cred chits will appease them.  You HAVE to fight sometime and you need to be able to fight, whether it be biotic/tech/ or a soldier.  You can't brow beat everyone in the galaxy.  What happens if you run into a pack of verran or those giant spider things in ME2, sorry don't recall the name, and you backed into a corner?

If you're capable enough, you wouldn't be backed into a corner in the first place. The only people who would reach Spectre status like this would be the sort who have demonstrated that they can avoid situations in which they don't excell.  That, to, is a part of success, and a successful axim of Sun Tzu: to win before any battle could be joined.

Hired muscle?  I wouldn't trust anyone who follows my orders only if the credits keep flowing.  Mercs are no where as loyal as Garrus.  They're too interested in making a profit, and not willing to take the big risks you need when facing Saren or the Collectors.  Plus, if you start earning a rep of getting your hired thugs killed then good luck getting more down the road.  You may point at Zaeed as an example of merc, but he's an exception.  Plus, it took TIM to drop a boat load of creds to get him to agree.  I have my doubts he'll even return to ME3 cause what's his motivation?  Who's going to pay him?  Why would he care about the entire galaxy, and not just run to his personal bunker and try to ride out the storm? 

You're missing, deliberatly, the point that a person doesn't themselves have to be able to handle everything alone. The hired muscle doesn't need to be literally that: it could be a soldier, or a justicar, or some Quarian girl picked up off the streets. Someone who can supplement what you lack in.

Mass Effect 1 even demonstrated this with the tech locks. Imagine if Saren had bothered to lock the nukes on Eden Prime with super-hard encryption locks found scattered across the galaxy in commercial containers! No Shepard (on the first playthrough) would have been able to break the lock and disarm the nukes. Does this mean that every Spectre needs to be a tech expert to prevent being foiled by locks? Of course not.

A Spectre needs to be proficent at a diverse amount of skills, and have the X factor.  Something that sets him or her apart from a regular grunt in the military or paper pusher in C-Sec.  

And that factor is the ability to succede. If you can succede without combat, you still succede.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

i dont know why you making a wall of text.
you asked:
do you feel Spectres should be crack commandoes or combat experts ala Shepard?
my answer...YES. nothing is gonna change that

It's called a response to an argument. It's based on the presumption that, if someone sees things in a different light and realize things they hadn't considered beforehand, that in the introspection that results they might change their minds on an issue.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Most missions we see spectres in seems to involve combat or is some sort of military infiltration mission. So I would say that spectres need some combat experience.

[Hepzi3]

Blasto is a friggin Spectre and his combat abilities are.......somewhat untested,hes a jellyfish for crying out loud.

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

Er dean, the games and books make it clear that even though spectres can come from any race, they are only picked from council races. Shepard was an exception, but as he himself can admit in a renegade dialog option, it was the council throwing humanity a bone.

I'll have to beg the source, having never read or heard that from either medium.

Spectres are usually drawn from species with a certain level of influence... but even non-Council species have influence.

No, but it does require being able to fight in some capacity. Usually quite advanced training.

Not combat training: that's a James Bond/fictional conceit.

Undercover training is based on being able to remain undected undercover. When a spy or deep-cover special forces are found, they are nearly always too far gone to survive free. Their survival, and success, comes not from being able to fight their way out, but in never having to fight at all. Even snipers, the most tactical example, aren't combat-focused for direct fighting. They're stealth focused so they can take a shot and then flee and then never have to fight a running gun battle. When they don't move between shots, its nearly always because they're in a position defended by a number of friendly forces.

This is a good post. As I said, a spectre needs to be able to rely on themselves. Shepard would have died a long time ago if he hadn't been able to. Not that I'm saying Shep is the model spectre, just using it as an example of where combat training was useful.

Shepard relies extensively on his team, though. Anyone lacking a tech-expert would almost certainly see themselves incapable of overcoming technical barriers, and no Shepard ever pretends at being able to take the Collectors or the Geth alone.


The only Spectre to date who hasn't used allies extensively has been Nihlus. Telas Vasir kept the Shadow Broker on call, Saren both hired mercenaries to do actions for him and took advantage of the Geth, and Shepard him/herself is highly dependent on having team-mates and supporting groups enabling his/her success.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 mai 2011 - 03:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

Most missions we see spectres in seems to involve combat or is some sort of military infiltration mission. So I would say that spectres need some combat experience.

Most missions we see Spectres in are Shepard's missions. Shepard is a soldier in an action game.


Spectres really aren't even given missions. They're given objectives: stop this person, get this object, find this intelligence. How they do it is up to them. That Shepard approaches things like a soldier doesn't mean that approaching things like a soldier is the only approach.

[corporal doody]

you keep saying missing the point...you mean your point? why ask for a opinion if you are going to tapdance around it to better illustrate yours? Topic should be do you agree with my opinion. like faux news or something.

Spectre = Jack Of All Trades.

copy and paste from the wiki/codex:
Spectres are agents from the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance and answer only to the Citadel Council. They are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary.

They operate independently or in groups of two or three. Some are empathetic peacekeepers, resolving disputes through diplomacy. Others are cold-blooded assassins, ruthlessly dispatching problem individuals. All get the job done, one way or another, often operating outside of the bounds of galactic law.

The Spectres were founded after the salarians joined the Council. For many years, they operated in secrecy, as back-room "problem solvers". Only after the Krogan Rebellions did their activities become publicized. Assignment of a Spectre is less contentious than military deployment, but makes it clear that the Council is concerned about a situation

Modifié par corporal doody, 14 mai 2011 - 03:43 .

[darknoon5]

1) I CBA to start another playthrough just to find what it says, but here ia quote from Mass effect wiki:

"All records of the Spectres are sealed and only granted access with permission of the Council. It is not even clear how many there are: Alliance intelligence estimates that there are fewer than a hundred. Each Spectre is hand-picked by the Council after proving that they are an individual of exceptional ability and self-reliance. In theory Spectres can be chosen from any race; in practice they are usually selected from the Council races. Having a Spectre chosen from their kind often raises a particular species' profile on the Citadel. Many alien races have been part of the Citadel for centuries without a Spectre being chosen from their ranks."

ME Wiki is very restrictive with what it allows. If that wasn't in the games, it wouldn't be there. They won't even makes pages for some things that are in the games, such as the geth gunship.

2) Combat training, maybe not the best term. Firearm training, maybe hand to hand.

3) Arrival. Shep had no help for most of that mission.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

you keep saying missing the point...you mean your point? why ask for a opinion if you are going to tapdance around it better illustrate yours? Topic should be do you agree with my opinion. like faux news or something.

This sight needs a good eye-roll smile.

Opinions on objective aspects are not somehow immune from questioning. Subjective opinions are the sort of thing in which there is no need for backup (I like red), but opinions based on arguments can be countered and tested if the arguments seem flawed.

Spectre = Jack Of All Trades.

copy and paste from the wiki/codex:
Spectres are agents from the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance and answer only to the Citadel Council. They are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary.

They operate independently or in groups of two or three. Some are empathetic peacekeepers, resolving disputes through diplomacy. Others are cold-blooded assassins, ruthlessly dispatching problem individuals. All get the job done, one way or another, often operating outside of the bounds of galactic law.

The Spectres were founded after the salarians joined the Council. For many years, they operated in secrecy, as back-room "problem solvers". Only after the Krogan Rebellions did their activities become publicized. Assignment of a Spectre is less contentious than military deployment, but makes it clear that the Council is concerned about a situation

For example, nothing you quoted from the wiki implies Jack of All Trades. Some/others is distinction, not inclusion, and implies a lack of mutual inclusion.

You claiming Spectre = Jack Of All Trades is an opinion-position, but it is backed by a flawed argument. No one needs permission to question it.

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

1) I CBA to start another playthrough just to find what it says, but here ia quote from Mass effect wiki:

"All records of the Spectres are sealed and only granted access with permission of the Council. It is not even clear how many there are: Alliance intelligence estimates that there are fewer than a hundred. Each Spectre is hand-picked by the Council after proving that they are an individual of exceptional ability and self-reliance. In theory Spectres can be chosen from any race; in practice they are usually selected from the Council races. Having a Spectre chosen from their kind often raises a particular species' profile on the Citadel. Many alien races have been part of the Citadel for centuries without a Spectre being chosen from their ranks."

ME Wiki is very restrictive with what it allows. If that wasn't in the games, it wouldn't be there. They won't even makes pages for some things that are in the games, such as the geth gunship.

Indeed. Thanks for providing the proof that non-Council species are, even if rarely, selected for Spectres.

2) Combat training, maybe not the best term. Firearm training, maybe hand to hand.

If they can use someone else, or avoid the need to, why?

3) Arrival. Shep had no help for most of that mission.

Arrival also wasn't a Spectre mission, nor was the lack of backup necessary for any non-arbitrary story reason. Nor was the violent breakout the only way to apprach  it: even if Sheaprd wasn't able to sneak in and out without significant fighting, that doesn't mean someone else couldn't.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 mai 2011 - 03:46 .

[corporal doody]

Even the Jedi needed to master the lightsaber.

[LuxDragon]

So far, we've seen three Spectres:

Saren, Shepard, Tela Vasir.

And it seemed to me that all three were well versed in combat.

So... yes. I thing Spectres have to be extremely combat capable. Of course, if that's all a Spectre is, any commando would do.

Spectres need to be more than that. They have to be flexible, adaptive, diplomatic, and self-reliant. They have to have a bunch of skills that simply can't be taught. Something that makes them stand out above the rest.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

Even the Jedi needed to master the lightsaber.

Not really. Force powers, and spiritual focus, are independent of the lightsaber. The lightsaber is a symbol and a tool, but it is neither cause or corequisite for force powers and development.