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[corporal doody]

dont tell that to Yoda


a note about diplomacy.....there is always GUNBOAT Diplomacy

Modifié par corporal doody, 14 mai 2011 - 04:00 .

[celuloid]

Enough polemic about fictional military group. It is evident Spectres are modeled after real-life Special Forces. You can see many parallels. They are answering directly to Council/President/Defense secretary. They are doing all that cool commando stuff. They sure must be diplomats too - just as one powerhungry maniac once said: Diplomacy comes out of barrel of a gun.
But nowhere in ME is it shown that they are some white collar emissaries solving problems at tea table. That means just as with real life Special Forces, combat experience is mandatory.

[Dean_the_Young]

celuloid wrote...

Enough polemic about fictional military group. It is evident Spectres are modeled after real-life Special Forces. You can see many parallels. They are answering directly to Council/President/Defense secretary. They are doing all that cool commando stuff. They sure must be diplomats too - just as one powerhungry maniac once said: Diplomacy comes out of barrel of a gun.
But nowhere in ME is it shown that they are some white collar emissaries solving problems at tea table. That means just as with real life Special Forces, combat experience is mandatory.

Okay, first off lets get some perspective: we've seen how precisely one Spectre, of a hundred, traditionally cariers out his/her missions. And that's Shepard, who was recruited from commandos, and who is the star of an action-shooter game. In grand total, we've briefly met three different Spectres... or just over 1/25th of the all Spectres. And in meeting those few, none of them were doing much cool-commando stuff: Nihlus more or less jumped off a ship early and was never seen again, Saren stood back while mercenaries did 99% of all the work and only took place in two fights, and Tela Vasir spent the vast majority of the time running away from the Asari equivalent of a late-teenager. Even factoring what little we see of them, that's an incredibly small and selctive sample when viewed through the lens of an action-game hero.

A special problem-solving force reporting directly to the President/Council doesn't make them commandos. Executive offices have a lot of problem-solving forces that don't go into door-kicking in their free time. Nowhere in ME does it ever claim that Spectres can't be sent to solve problems by white-collar methods if that's what's necessary. Even the Alliance will send N7 Renegade berserker Shepard Spectre to do that (albeit for hidden motivations). So, yes, we have precedence for Spectres being sent to play nice.


But move beyond the framework that non-special forces = white collar mediocracy that anyone can do. That's no more inherent than the argument that Shepard is equivalent to GI Joes Tom, Dick, or Hank because, hey, most soldiers are average people as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

dont tell that to Yoda


a note about diplomacy.....there is always GUNBOAT Diplomacy

Indeed. And the historic aspect about gunboat diplomacy was that a very large part of it was the person with the gunboat being aware they couldn't use it as freely as they acted they could.

[celuloid]

IMHO, codex states they are "military operatives" and are deployed when regular military is too heavy for the task. That implies they went through at least basic combat training and solve tense situations where they very well need it. What more do we need?

[darknoon5]

celuloid wrote...

IMHO, codex states they are "military operatives" and are deployed when regular military is too heavy for the task. That implies they went through at least basic combat training and solve tense situations where they very well need it. What more do we need?

Well, the first Spectres were chosen from the best STG operatives and asari huntresses, all of whom would've had combat training of some sort.

Also, once again from ME wiki:

Candidates for the Spectres typically have years of military or law
enforcement experience before even being considered. The screening
process involves background checks, psychological evaluations, and a
long period of field training under an experienced mentor. Because of
the rigorous selection process, Spectres might sometimes use unorthodox
methods but they rarely go rogue. When it does happen, the only solution
is to revoke their status, then send another Spectre after them. No one
else would be up to the job.

EDIT:
From the codex (ctrl c+ctrl v'd):

Spectres are agents from the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance and answer only to the Citadel Council.
They are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with
threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary.
They operate independently or in groups of two or three. Some are
empathetic peacekeepers, resolving disputes through diplomacy. Others
are cold-blooded assassins, ruthlessly dispatching problem individuals.
All get the job done, one way or another, often operating outside of the
bounds of galactic law.
The Spectres were founded after the salarians joined the Council. For many years, they operated in secrecy, as back-room "problem solvers". Only after the Krogan Rebellions
did their activities become publicized. Assignment of a Spectre is less
contentious than military deployment, but makes it clear that the
Council is concerned about a situation.

/thread

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[celuloid]

As far as I see, you are arguing Spectres don't need combat training at all.
All I am arguing is that it's practically impossible in ME galaxy given tasks Spectres handle they wouldn't have any combat training at all.
I havn not seen white collar Spectre yet, but I see those many parallels with real-life Special Forces. From this, I make my conclusions.

Modifié par celuloid, 14 mai 2011 - 04:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

celuloid wrote...

As far as I see, you are arguing Spectres don't need combat training at all.

If they have other skills to succede, and the means to supplement their own weaknesses, yes. Shepard may need biotic skills, but Shepard need not be a biotic. Shepard may need a tech expert, but Shepard need not be a tech expert personally. The extent that Shepard, personally, is even a combat expert is also affected by the player's own skills and their ability to make use of the team mates. Certainly I've gone through missions as an engineer where I refused to fire a shot and instead relied entirely on omni-tool generate powers and tech-hacking. No physical adeptness was ever demonstrated.

A hypothetical volus Spectre can have had a career in law enforcement for years but never have needed to fire a shot despite high-pressure and high-tension situations, thanks to persuasion, espionage abilities (technical and political), ability to think ahead and plan, and an ability to resolve any physical shortcomings by other means.

All I am arguing is that it's practically impossible in ME galaxy given tasks Spectres handle they wouldn't have any combat training at all.

Let's start with a 'standard' Spectre objective, whether base destruction or assassination or information retrieval, and see how much personal commando skills are necessary to succed.

Why, for example, would a commando be necessary to take down Fist in his own bar, if Fist's info could just be bought out in the first place by a merchant-prince or his computer hacked by a hacking expert?

If, instead of Shepard's dramatic rescue of running over to Tali to kill her assassins, the said super-hacker were able to access the station systems and manipulate doors to trapTali away from her assassins until C-SEC could take her into into protective custody?

Instead of shotting Geth/mechs on Eden Prime, just hack and let them fight eachother while the meat shields (Ash/Kaiden) screen


Etc. etc..

[darknoon5]

^hem, read my quote from the codex and ME wiki.

Sorry, but you're wrong on this one.

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 mai 2011 - 04:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

celuloid wrote...

IMHO, codex states they are "military operatives" and are deployed when regular military is too heavy for the task. That implies they went through at least basic combat training and solve tense situations where they very well need it. What more do we need?

Well, the first Spectres were chosen from the best STG operatives and asari huntresses, all of whom would've had combat training of some sort.

Also, once again from ME wiki:

Candidates for the Spectres typically have years of military or law
enforcement experience before even being considered. The screening
process involves background checks, psychological evaluations, and a
long period of field training under an experienced mentor. Because of
the rigorous selection process, Spectres might sometimes use unorthodox
methods but they rarely go rogue. When it does happen, the only solution
is to revoke their status, then send another Spectre after them. No one
else would be up to the job.

You do realize that most law enforcement and even much military occupations never see direct combat despite impressive successes?

Law enforcement especially.

EDIT:
From the codex (ctrl c+ctrl v'd):

Spectres are agents from the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance and answer only to the Citadel Council.
They are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with
threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary.
They operate independently or in groups of two or three. Some are
empathetic peacekeepers, resolving disputes through diplomacy. Others
are cold-blooded assassins, ruthlessly dispatching problem individuals.
All get the job done, one way or another, often operating outside of the
bounds of galactic law.
The Spectres were founded after the salarians joined the Council. For many years, they operated in secrecy, as back-room "problem solvers". Only after the Krogan Rebellions
did their activities become publicized. Assignment of a Spectre is less
contentious than military deployment, but makes it clear that the
Council is concerned about a situation.

/thread

/thread in that military operatives don't need to be conventional military grunts? Quite so.

[darknoon5]

Oh, quit dodging clear evidence! Do you think they're going to appoint a pencil-pusher in C-Sec to spectre? Of course not, Spectres are chosen from the elites above rank and file. Even if for some reason they did pick somebody who'd never been in conflict, not seeing direct conflict also doesn't mean you aren't trained.

The wording makes it clear that they all have military training. Also, what about the field training all Spectres receive?

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

Oh, quit dodging clear evidence! Do you think they're going to appoint a pencil-pusher in C-Sec to spectre? Of course not, Spectres are chosen from the elites above rank and file. Even if for some reason they did pick somebody who'd never been in conflict, not seeing direct conflict also doesn't mean you aren't trained.

Since when did 'not fighter' become 'pencile pusher anyone can substitute for'? Did non-martial skill suddenly evaporate from all consideration, and now all abilities are relegated into 'skilled special forces, grunts, and identicial civilians who can be interchangably replaced by anyone'?

Did expertise and skill suddenly vanish if you aren't military special forces?

The wording makes it clear that they all have military training.

Except, as you quoted, it doesn't. It explicitly rejects that. Some of military training. Others have law enforcement training. And while those two combine for the qualifier 'typically', that also makes note of some who do not fit either category.

Also, what about the field training all Spectres receive?

Spectre-type missions, obviously, which are also not 'field deployments' as done by the standard military. They're demonstration practicals. Get objective, complete objective however the Spectre feels necessary. Shepard's first mission was as a glorified delivery boy that only saw any opposition due to chance. That was so soft balled a VI could have done it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[darknoon5]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Oh, quit dodging clear evidence! Do you think they're going to appoint a pencil-pusher in C-Sec to spectre? Of course not, Spectres are chosen from the elites above rank and file. Even if for some reason they did pick somebody who'd never been in conflict, not seeing direct conflict also doesn't mean you aren't trained.

Since when did 'not fighter' become 'pencile pusher anyone can substitute for'? Did non-martial skill suddenly evaporate from all consideration, and now all abilities are relegated into 'skilled special forces, grunts, and identicial civilians who can be interchangably replaced by anyone'?

Did expertise and skill suddenly vanish if you aren't military special forces?

Spectres are chosen from the elites above rank and file

Somebodywho is only specialized in one area doesn't sound above the rank and file. I was also not saying people need to be special forces to have skill, but I'm saying spectres have very high requirements. Alliance
intel suggests there aren't even 100 in existence!

The wording makes it clear that they all have military training.

Except, as you quoted, it doesn't. It explicitly rejects that. Some of military training. Others have law enforcement training. And while those two combine for the qualifier 'typically', that also makes note of some who do not fit either category.

Military training, law enforcement training. Seems clear to me they are adept in some form of combat.

Also, what about the field training all Spectres receive?

Spectre-type missions, obviously, which are also not 'field deployments' as done by the standard military. They're demonstration practicals. Get objective, complete objective however the Spectre feels necessary. Shepard's first mission was as a glorified delivery boy that only saw any opposition due to chance. That was so soft balled a VI could have done it.

Still, I'd say many are not that easy. Also, as Nihlus said, it was the first of many missions. Finally, what about the training Garrus' talks of?

I have no time for this ridiculous discussion. I've shown proof that spectres do indeed have combat training. If you're that bothered, ask Casey Hudson on his twitter. "Are there any spectres without combat training?" and see what he replies, that seems to be the only thing that will satisfy you outside of a block of text explicitly saying "All spectres have advanced combat training" even though that is obvious to every other poster in the thread.

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 mai 2011 - 04:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]darknoon5 wrote...
Spectres are chosen from the elites above rank and file

Somebodywho is only specialized in one area doesn't sound above the rank and file. I was also not saying people need to be special forces to have skill, but I'm saying spectres have very high requirements. Alliance
intel suggests there aren't even 100 in existence!
[/quote]Uh, and someone who's smart enough to succede worth noticing despite not relying on any physical violence wouldn't be an elite above the rank and file? How is that in any way implicitly specializing in only one area? Is 'civilian' a universal area while 'military' is filled with nuance?




[quote]

The wording makes it clear that they all have military training.
[/quote]Except, as you quoted, it doesn't. It explicitly rejects that. Some of military training. Others have law enforcement training. And while those two combine for the qualifier 'typically', that also makes note of some who do not fit either category.

Military training, law enforcement training. Seems clear to me they are adept in some form of combat. [/quote]
Except neither explicitly imply or even require combat adeptness to be successful in those fields. Successful police officers don't have to be SWAT Team commandoes in order to hunt down ellusive criminals and bring them in. Successful military officers don't have to be infantry special forces, or even infantry. And then there are still the explicitly 'other' who aren't trained as either. Heck, law enforcement itself is a wide field of expertise, and even the Secret Service isn't simply commandos standing around the President.



[quote]
Still, I'd say many are not that easy. Also, as Nihlus said, it was the first of many missions. Finally, what about the training Garrus' talks of?[/quote]Turian training from a militarized culture? Besides the vague nature of the training (criminology, technical expertise, etc.) the Turians are a militarized culture. That they fixate on everything as needing a military solution doesn't mean that that's the only model for other races.

[quote]
I have no time for this ridiculous discussion.[/quote]This and all prior posts indicating otherwise, and with your previous question? Right.
[quote]
I've shown proof that spectres do indeed have combat training. [/quote]You haven't. Youve shown proof that directly undermined your own arguments, and have repeatedly jumped to conclusions about skillsets required in the very fields you cite.
[quote]
If you're that bothered, ask Casey Hudson on his twitter. "Are there any spectres without combat training?" and see what he replies, that seems to be the only thing that will satisfy you outside of a block of text explicitly saying "All spectres have advanced combat training" even though that is obvious to every other poster in the thread.

[/quote]Most people on the thread echoing your position assume that the only way to solve a problem is to beat it up and shoot it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 mai 2011 - 05:07 .

[darknoon5]

I have to go now, so I cannot respond to every point, however:

You haven't. Youve shown proof that directly undermined your own arguments, and have repeatedly jumped to conclusions about skillsets required in the very fields you cite.

Er, wat.
Does the official codex show that all spectres have military/law enforcement training? Yes. Does this mean they will have, at the least, basic combat training? As far as I know, in MEverse, yes. (see Kahlee Sanders)

Most people on the thread echoing your position assume that the only way to solve a problem is to beat it up and shoot it.

No, most people realize somebody with no combat skill would be useless in a situation where there cover may be compromised, or where they may be caught. Not much use if you can hack a computer but don't have the skill to take down two LOKI mechs sent to to take you out...

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 mai 2011 - 05:12 .

[corporal doody]

i seriously think you are "arguing" for the sake of arguing at this point.

law enforcement officers are armed and well versed in self defense. The USE of FORCE and DEADLY FORCE are viable options (though always last and justified) that officer can use to deal with a situation. . Training is required EVEN IF THEY DONT USE THAT TRAINING ON A DAILY BASIS!

i cant speak for the Army or Navy....BUT Every Marine in the United States Marine Corps is a basic INFANTRYMAN regardless of MOS. Hey you 0100 admin? Basic Infantryman! Cook? INFANTRYMAN!! Everyone has to have basic combat training. basic knowledge needed for advancement for all ranks IS basic infantry knowledge IN ADDITION to that particular MOS. THIS INCLUDES OFFICERS


this is my last post cuz you seem to be throwing a agenda at us.

Modifié par corporal doody, 14 mai 2011 - 05:14 .

[Drachasor]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except, as you quoted, it doesn't. It explicitly rejects that. Some of military training. Others have law enforcement training. And while those two combine for the qualifier 'typically', that also makes note of some who do not fit either category.

"Elite Military Operatives" is pretty dang clear.  All Spectres can kick ass.  That's part of what makes them so scary.  Does that mean they view every problem as one where the solution is ass-kicking?  No, of course not.  You could have a Spectre that tended to resolve problems diplomatically as much as possible.  Heck, that's what my Shepherd in the games is like.  That doesn't mean such a Spectre isn't extremely capable if they do get into a fight.

This is part of the job description.

[levannar]

Well, I do agree that there must be some Spectre objectives that can be reached without combat. But still, I find it hard to believe that this means Spectres don't necessarily know combat. I'm not saying they are all destructive badasses like Shepard, but I simply can't fathom why they wouldn't be taught how to fire a gun. Based on what we know, they tend to be sent on dangerous missions, and even the ones that are seemingly harmless (e.g. retrieving a certain Prothean beacon from Eden Prime) can turn into battle situations in the blink of an eye. This isn't always the case, mind you, but the chance is there, and if it does happen, the Spectre may be forced to fight for his/her life.

It makes zero sense to gamble that a Spectre will be able to solve every single situation without the use of force. Even the best make mistakes. Any random event outside of their control could occur and ruin everything. In such a situation, a Spectre without combat training is a sitting duck.

What disturbs me about this idea is that I don't see why an elite operative wouldn't receive this kind of training. If they can solve the issue without guns, good for them, but I sure as hell would consider the chance that they can't.

Do I think only combat experts get recruited? No, a hacker or a diplomat could be just as valid a candidate. But I firmly believe they receive at lest some basic combat training as part of the Spectre training we keep hearing about in ME1.

Modifié par levannar, 14 mai 2011 - 05:32 .

[Siegdrifa]

Seems that you don't undersand the role of specters OP.

I'm sad you didn't answer my quot from ME1 too : "when specters show off, peacefull solution are long gone".

Specter FORCE the outcome, if they are paragon it's " Look... now that i'm here, there is only death,... you should reconsider QUICKLY the last chance you were given... if not, i'll have to deal with you".
If it's a renegade specter "BANG BANG ! you should have listened, now you are dead".

I'm even sure somehere in ME1 there is a statement about other races that can't become specter because they wouldn't have enough combat skill (volus, hanar et such).

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

I have to go now, so I cannot respond to every point, however:

You haven't. Youve shown proof that directly undermined your own arguments, and have repeatedly jumped to conclusions about skillsets required in the very fields you cite.

Er, wat.
Does the official codex show that all spectres have military/law enforcement training? Yes.

Er, no. It says that Spectres typically have military/law enforcement, but 'typically' is only a terminology used when there are those who don't.

Does this mean they will have, at the least, basic combat training? As far as I know, in MEverse, yes. (see Kahlee Sanders)

Does it mean they're kick-ass commandos who rely on being the best gunfighters? No, not even for those taken from military/lawenforcement groups, let alone those who come from neither.

No, most people realize somebody with no combat skill would be useless in a situation where there cover may be compromised, or where they may be caught. Not much use if you can hack a computer but don't have the skill to take down two LOKI mechs sent to to take you out...

When you can hack them to kill eachother, or turn on their employer? Wilson took out an entire Cerberus base and almost killed Commander Shepard without firing a shot at any of the Cerberus personnel, or being especially kick-ass himself.

You don't need to be a close combat expert or physically adept to use an omnitool.

[NYG1991]

If by combat you mean guns and cqc, then they would probably only need minimal training to get the job done. Without combat training they would have to be more reliant on other talents like tech,stealth or biotics.

I don't think spectres need heavy combat training, but they need to be able to kill should the situation arise. It'd be cool to see a spectre that used tech ablities.

[XFemShepX]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

And if they can handle themselves by diplomacy, bribery, and hired muscle? 

In theory, you argument holds water.  However, getting noticed by the Council is the track to becoming a Spectre.  And I just don't think this happens unless you have shown your ability to defend yourself, or have some sort of advanced combat training.  You could be the best diplomat ever, but is the Council really going to look at you and say--"Yesss...Spectre material.".  No.  Because if push came to shove and you were pushed to violent reaction, could you do it? 

Take for example (though not exactly the same), our FBI.  Not all FBI members have law enforcement backgrounds.  Lots of them work as forensic psychologists or financial experts for the FBI.  But you damned sure they all are required to keep in shape, and stay in practice with a gun.  They all learn self defense and hand to hand, and all have physical requirements that they are expected to meet.

[Drachasor]

Again, Spectres are "Elite Military Operatives" and that implies being able to kick a lot of ass if need be.

[Dean_the_Young]

XFemShepX wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

im not reading all of that...but yes. Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.

And if they can handle themselves by diplomacy, bribery, and hired muscle? 

In theory, you argument holds water.  However, getting noticed by the Council is the track to becoming a Spectre.  And I just don't think this happens unless you have shown your ability to defend yourself, or have some sort of advanced combat training.  You could be the best diplomat ever, but is the Council really going to look at you and say--"Yesss...Spectre material.".  No.  Because if push came to shove and you were pushed to violent reaction, could you do it? 

Take for example (though not exactly the same), our FBI.  Not all FBI members have law enforcement backgrounds.  Lots of them work as forensic psychologists or financial experts for the FBI.  But you damned sure they all are required to keep in shape, and stay in practice with a gun.  They all learn self defense and hand to hand, and all have physical requirements that they are expected to meet.

Sure. And at the same time, however, for most of them their self-defense would be substandard to expert-level military qualifications. And there's also the point of how the FBI will sometimes actively recruit criminals (especially hackers) to outright work for them, and hackers aren't exactly what you think of when you thing of the best and brightest. In so much as they need to be willing to kill, their ability to do so has never needed to be top of the line if they can find other means to do so... whether hacking machines or having the best team-muscle they can get from whatever sources.

The biggest point of the Spectres has always been that they solve problems for the Council whatever the means, and the biggest personal asset for the Spectres has been the 'ignore laws for free' clause. That clause is incredibly wasted on simply pre-emptively pardoning civilian casualties and war crimes: think of the vast regards of blue-collar or white-collar 'mundane' crimes that could be used for problem solving of the galactic scale. Just consider some types of applications of a so-called 'pencil pusher' Spectre.

-An effective information-broker Spectre, a semi-Shadow Broker on call who can make deals happen or make enemies disappear. You can bet that if the Council could take any sort of charge of the Shadow Broker network or any modest equivalent, they wouldn't mind giving its leader the full legal pass to do such that he/she would do anyway. It's the illegal espionage angle, exceptional even within the intelligence services, that would warrant notice.

-An outright crime lord Spectre, whose criminal enterprise, while fought by the police as well, is able to direct to 'better' crimes by taking out rival gangs and going on other focus points the Council favors. Crime happens, but the prospect of organized, sanctioned crime is already well established in Council practices. Having a criminal genius on the payroll to take out the worst criminal groups that the police groups can't catch would hardly be novel... and none of it requires the Spectre him/herslef to go charging in guns first. Its the criminal, not firefight, expertise that gets the results.

-A political-intrigue/spy Spectre who has free clearance to dig up whatever skeletons by whatever means to shape the political context here or there on behalf of the Council. Uncoverering, or producing, such dirty secrets in such a way as to be remarkably successful in making things happen would almost certainly be crossing more than a few laws in the process. But while there might be murder in the air and some daring James Bond escapes, a Spectre who specializes in twisting arms and forcing deals is above the rank and fire in terms of the cooercive ability, intelligence, and ability to manipulte people. Fighting isn't even tertiary.


And so on.

[Drachasor]

Frankly, Spectres AREN'T information brokers. If the Council got access to something as powerful as the Shadow Broker's network, then you can be dang sure they'd want a tight leash on it. That intel is far more powerful than any spectre easily.

Again, Spectres are "Elite Military Operatives".