301 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Drachasor wrote...

Frankly, Spectres AREN'T information brokers. If the Council got access to something as powerful as the Shadow Broker's network, then you can be dang sure they'd want a tight leash on it. That intel is far more powerful than any spectre easily.

That same argument about value and a tight least applies to the very principal of the Spectres... and the very office of the Spectres is 'be useful and don't do too much of a bad thing and you can do whatever you want.' That's not the attitude of a tight-control oversight mentality at all.

Again, Spectres are "Elite Military Operatives".

I'm fairly sure the term 'military operative' means what you think it means.

[naledgeborn]

I think what the codices mean when it mentions "diplomacy" is the difference between a Jedi Guardian and a Jedi Consular. Both Jedi trained for combat. However one school focuses on martial training with a lightsaber while the other is more attuned to "the Force", diplomacy, and guile.

Different series, more or less same principle.

[Konfined]

Please provide an example of a Spectre who isn't well versed in combat. Saren is former Military; Nilhus,Tela while not explicitly indicated to have been a commando, is obviously well versed in combat; even Garrus is ex-military and law enforcement and the VS is highly trained and experienced in combat. It's heavily implied throughout the Mass Effect universe that extensive knowledge of combat is expected if not required.

And while you are running real life comparisons, let me remind you that all branches of military, non-military defense and law enforcement are trained in multiple forms of combat. Even the acronym for Spectre is Special Tactics and Reconnaissance. I can tell you from experience, Recon AND Sniper training both are heavy with combat training. You practically need a green belt in MCMAP and near perfect infantry GT proficiency scores to even be considered for Force; and the training is out of this world.

So, can an individual who is completely untrained in combat be selected for Spectre? Nothing's impossible. Would it happen in practice? All signs point to no.

Modifié par Konfined, 14 mai 2011 - 07:16 .

[Drachasor]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Again, Spectres are "Elite Military Operatives".[/quote]I'm fairly sure the term 'military operative' means what you think it means.
[/quote]

I think it is you that doesn't know what that means, and doesn't know much about the military, particularly any sort of covert ops like the Spectres are.

[Dean_the_Young]

Drachasor wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Again, Spectres are "Elite Military Operatives".

I'm fairly sure the term 'military operative' means what you think it means.

I think it is you that doesn't know what that means, and doesn't know much about the military, particularly any sort of covert ops like the Spectres are.

The Spectres aren't even covert ops at all, so I suppose I can't argue against that sort of conviction of certainty.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Please provide an example of a Spectre who isn't well versed in combat. Saren is former Military; Nilhus,Tela while not explicitly indicated to have been a commando, is obviously well versed in combat; even Garrus is ex-military and law enforcement and the VS is highly trained and experienced in combat. It's heavily implied throughout the Mass Effect universe that extensive knowledge of combat is expected if not required.

Konfined, there have only been four named Spectres to date.

Four. One of whome was an action-shooter player-character and two of whome were enemies for the character. Four characters, out of a hundred, is in no sense a healthy or balanced sample.

And while you are running real life comparisons, let me remind you that all branches of military, non-military defense and law enforcement are trained in multiple forms of combat.

As we keep swinging away from, are we talking about basic combat skills but combat experts.

Even the acronym for Spectre is Special Tactics and Reconnaissance. I can tell you from experience, Recon AND Sniper training both are heavy with combat training. You practically need a green belt in MCMAP and near perfect infantry GT proficiency scores to even be considered for Force; and the training is out of this world.

Of course. But the military special forces, focus on military and martial aspects of problem solving. Police forces focus on others. The CIA focuses on others. Law enforcement in general can go in different ways.

We're trying to draw a distinction between military special forces (which combat expertise is a requirement) and a force that, by its mission statement and goals, is not synonymous with military special forces.

So, can an individual who is completely untrained in combat be selected for Spectre? Nothing's impossible. Would it happen in practice? All signs point to no.

And the fixation on combat is what I'm challenging. The Spectres aren't a commando force. That isn't their mission statement, that isn't their role in theory or practice, and that isn't inherent in their execution.

I'm challening the assumed synonyminity between Spectres and Commandos.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 mai 2011 - 07:31 .

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Konfined, there have only been four named Spectres to date.

Four. One of whome was an action-shooter player-character and two of whome were enemies for the character. Four characters, out of a hundred, is in no sense a healthy or balanced sample.

This is a good point, I admit, but the fact remains that logic just isn't on your side on this one; if it walks like a duck, and all that.  The only examples of Spectres we have are combat experts.

As we keep swinging away from, are we talking about basic combat skills but combat experts.

Let's be clear that being an expert in combat does not exclude you from being an expert in anything else.  A priest can be a BJJ specialist.

Of course. But the military special forces, focus on military and martial aspects of problem solving. Police forces focus on others. The CIA focuses on others. Law enforcement in general can go in different ways.

We're trying to draw a distinction between military special forces (which combat expertise is a requirement) and a force that, by its mission statement and goals, is not synonymous with military special forces.

Combat expertise is a requirement of all these elements that have been mentioned.  For any field operative, whether it civilian or military, combat training is a large part of their curriculum; some more-so than others of course, but the fact remains that an operative working in the field is expected to have and maintain extensive combative training regardless of their primary tasks and objectives.  No matter how hard you may argue to the contrary, if they don't have it they don't work in the field; simple as that.  This goes in line with my next point.

So, can an individual who is completely untrained in combat be selected for Spectre? Nothing's impossible. Would it happen in practice? All signs point to no.

And the fixation on combat is what I'm challenging. The Spectres aren't a commando force. That isn't their mission statement, that isn't their role in theory or practice, and that isn't inherent in their execution.

I'm challening the assumed synonyminity between Spectres and Commandos.

The Spectres are based off of the Salarian's Special Tasks Group; which itself is a branch of the Salarian military.  The synonymy between Spectre and Commando is so obvious and heavily emphasized, that it's impossible to ignore it.  There is distinction to be made, however you can't make the distinction without noticing the glaring similarities. 

You don't necessarily have to be a Commando to be a Spectre however, the empirical data we have, however slight you may feel it is, suggests that at the very least, you are expected to know how to fight.  Regardless of who you compare them to, it just stands to reason that combat expertise is likely an expectation of any candidate. 

Modifié par Konfined, 14 mai 2011 - 08:06 .

[Wulfram]

I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a few people being granted spectre status without such abilities, though. If only because it's a simple way for the council to grant authority to someone acting on their behalf.

But every indication we have is that combat skills are part of the normal skill set of a spectre candidate, so I'd expect it to be very much a rarity.

[darknoon5]

As I said, the first spectres were the "finest STG operative and Asari Huntresses."

You can bet they had advanced combat training.

[WizenSlinky0]

An elite military operative doesn't tell you much. There are many branches of the military and some are given only basic training and instead excel in other area's, such as tech, information, etc.

I would venture a guess that all current spectres have a certain level of basic training though. Since most of them go through training procecdures before starting. This does not mean a spectre NEEDS this training. Shepard was appointed with no prior training, this was a special case, but one that could be repeated again.

Will there always be a way to avoid combat? No. Just like combat will not always get you the results you need. The council assigns objectives. It would pay for them to have specialists in any role for them to assign tasks they feel need that sort of skill. How they get it done is still their own perogative.

But the thing is a smart operative will not usually need any sort of advanced combat training. The Spectre's are modeled (lore-wise) on the Salarian STG (Special Tasks Group). Salarian operatives specialize in espionge, sabotage, infiltration, etc. STG groups are not known for their ability to sustain combat. They simply aren't made for it.

Sure, perhaps some zeolots will simply want to kill you. So you sabotage the air vents to pump a disabling neurotoxin (non-lethal) in and take out the whole room. A savey agent will still get the job done even without engaging in direct combat.

So yes, I agree. In the long run, however unlikely, so long as an agent has proven they can get the results the council needs there is nothing requiring a spectre to have elite military training.

[General User]

I agree that SPECTREs needn't be combat experts. 

I think SPECTREs should know firearms and combat in the same way they should know how to fly a shuttle.  IE they are useful skills that will very likely (but may not) come up. 

[Inutaisho7996]

I'd say they don't have to be masters at fighting, but they do have to have some basic combat training. A Spectre that specializes in espionage would need to fight his/her way out of a situation eventually. Conversely, a Spectre that specializes in combat would need to talk his/her way out of a situation eventually too.

[Chuvvy]

Sherlock Holmes for Spectre.

[harmonator62]

I'm siding with Dean. You don't carry a toolbox with a bunch of different sized hammers. You carry a bunch of different tools. The council would/should recruit individuals whose crazy-good talents can keep the galaxy spinning, whether that be taking out a gang organization in the Verge or "unofficially" speaking for the Council at a meeting of systems in the Terminus. Sure SPECTREs are known for getting themselves into heavy combat situations, but that's because those are the flashy stories that catch peoples' interest. The behind-the-scenes work never gets publicized, just like Jacob says. Will we ever see one of these types of SPECTREs in ME3? No. Maybe in future books, but not in the games.

[Nathan Redgrave]

No matter what job you take if you join the military, combat or otherwise, you go through basic combat training. Similar case with the Spectres: whether you're in a lot of massively action-packed scenes or not, you're going to have those combat skills. And I don't think you're getting noticed without them in the first place.

[Manic Sheep]

I always thought that there was more than one type of spectre for different roles. I don’t think they don’t necessarily have to be combat based although most if not all of them can probably handle themselves in a fight and have combat training even if it isn’t there specialty, they aren’t exceptional at it and they don’t do most of the “heavy lifting” themselves.Not having skill in combat would be a big minus to your chances of being made a specture I would think.
All the spectres we have meet so far have been big on combat but we haven’t met very many.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 15 mai 2011 - 07:09 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Spectres need to be combat experts. Just look at the title: Spectre. That means ghost basically. You don't call really good diplomats or really good negotiators something like Spectre. There's just nothing scary and ghost like about those abilities. You call people who kill people, and do it very well, and can do it without being detected ghosts, or Spectres.

Spectre's are chosen to be the guys that get the job done, period. So they need to be able to negotiate well, and to exercise diplomacy when and where that is the appropriate means of getting the job done. But all of their power is based on their ability to utterly destroy you if they have to.

If there were such thing as a non-combatant Spectre they would just be a glorified desk jockey. The galaxy would look at them like a joke, because Spectres aren't directly backed by anyone. They are given special status by the council and indirectly backed by the council. But they don't have any backup to call if things get ugly, no tactical teams, no ground forces, no body under their command nothing. So if you're a non-combatant "negotiator" Spectre and negotiations aren't going well, what are you gonna do about it? Nothing. You just have to say, "Okay" and walk away. And if someone decides to kill you for any reason, yeah, you're screwed.

So without their own ability to kick ass they really aren't powerful at all. Non-combatant Spectre is like Non-combatant Navy SEAL. Just doesn't make any sense.

[Silentmode]

Well as of yet every Spectre we've met or heard of is very skilled in combat situations. We know the majority of Spectres come from the council races who are all very adept at war in their own ways. Sure some Spectres could specialize in various non-combat related activities but I believe every Spectre should and does have extensive combat training and experience. Spectres have a way of finding themselves in positions they can't talk their way out of. And think about, why would the council make say a very skilled politician with a silver tongue and golden handshake a Spectre when they could simply make him an ambassader or something to that effect for them. Spectres need to be able to carry out any kind of mission... be it political, subterfuge, wet work, or more direct alternatives.

[LorDC]

In theory, yes, Spectres don't even need combat training at all. They only need to succed by any means necessary. And "any" in that phrase could work both ways. But:

a) Game itself emphasizes that Spectres need to be combat experts. Their name is Special Tactics and Reconnaissance. That could be stretched but both tactics and recon usually is associated with military operations. "First and last line of defense" phrase goes same way. All spectres we are shown are military experts. Shepard was chosen to be Spectre because of his military accomplishments. Garrus mentioned special training and it is implied that it was military kind of training. Shepard's evaluation by Nihilus was to begin with pretty much military operation.
So I dare to say that game itself tells us that Spectres must be combat experts regardless if it is really required.

Spectres are expected to take on most dangerous missions and their above-the-law status is given to them not for lulz. Not having military training seriously heightens risks for agent and limits his ability to handle different situations and missions. Spectres elite agents who are very limited in numbers but looking at what this status offers I think candidate pool is very big. So "problem solvers" without combat training can be freely discarded in favor of "problem solvers" with it.

[General User]

Dean, this is a really good thread, it challenges my preconceptions.

Ship.wreck wrote...
Spectres need to be combat experts. Just look at the title: Spectre. That means ghost basically. You don't call really good diplomats or really good negotiators something like Spectre. There's just nothing scary and ghost like about those abilities. You call people who kill people, and do it very well, and can do it without being detected ghosts, or Spectres.

I don’t think the Council is going for scary so much as intimidating when it comes to SPECTREs. And there is little more intimidating than sitting down across the negotiating table with someone you know is out of your league.

Ship.wreck wrote...
Spectre's are chosen to be the guys that get the job done, period. So they need to be able to negotiate well, and to exercise diplomacy when and where that is the appropriate means of getting the job done. But all of their power is based on their ability to utterly destroy you if they have to.

Except when it isn’t. Carrots and sticks, so to speak.

Ship.wreck wrote...
If there were such thing as a non-combatant Spectre they would just be a glorified desk jockey.

True enough, but there are two sides to that coin. Think of it this way; a non-combat SPECTRE would be a glorified desk-jockey in the same way a combat SPECTRE would be a glorified grunt. 

Ship.wreck wrote...
The galaxy would look at them like a joke, because Spectres aren't directly backed by anyone. They are given special status by the council and indirectly backed by the council. But they don't have any backup to call if things get ugly, no tactical teams, no ground forces, no body under their command nothing.

Except when they do. Saren had a geth army, Tela Vasir had Shadow Broker mercs, Shepard has his own hand-picked team of specialists.  Even Nihlus had an Alliance frigate and Marine ground team on hnad during Eden Prime.

Ship.wreck wrote...
So if you're a non-combatant "negotiator" Spectre and negotiations aren't going well, what are you gonna do about it? Nothing. You just have to say, "Okay" and walk away.

 
The idea behind being a top-level negotiator is that you don't get yourself into that situation often, if ever.  The idea behind being a negotiator SPECTRE is that, even if negotiations do break down, you have the skills and means to get others to be your muscle for you.

Ship.wreck wrote...
And if someone decides to kill you for any reason, yeah, you're screwed.

umm... yes?

Ship.wreck wrote...
So without their own ability to kick ass they really aren't powerful at all. Non-combatant Spectre is like Non-combatant Navy SEAL. Just doesn't make any sense.

Comparing SPECTREs to any sort of special forces is, at the very least, problematic. The two differ greatly in terms of what kinds of assignments they are given (SPECTREs are often given broad goals vice specific missions), and much more importantly how they are expected to complete them. Namely SPECTREs aren’t expected to complete their assignments in any particular way.

[LorDC]

I don't doubt that Council has top level negotiators who don't even remotely need combat skills. But I seriously doubt they are called Spectres.
Actually it could be both ways. On one hand Bioware never said that Spectres must be combat experts. On the other hand all Spectres we saw were combat experts, most of their work had a lot to do with combat of different sorts. And their work in general seems to require at least some level of combat training.
So we basically never saw pink elephants and have no hard reasons to assume that there are any. Why do we assume that they exist then?

Modifié par LorDC, 15 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

LorDC wrote...

I don't doubt that Council has top level negotiators who don't even remotely need combat skills. But I seriously doubt they are called Spectres.

And they also have special forces who don't remotely need negotiation skills. Those aren't called Spectres either.

Mind you, Spectres don't need negotiation skills either. Dumb-old Shepard without a single persuasion can get the missions done just as well.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mai 2011 - 01:30 .

[General User]

I can think of all manner of ways in which the Council could find use for a negotiator or diplomat who reports to no one but them, has all the records of her missions sealed, and enjoys full legal immunity.

Modifié par General User, 15 mai 2011 - 01:35 .

[celuloid]

Okay, from now on, every time someone makes a case against combat training, I am just going to post this quote from ingame Codex, the ultimate referential material there exists.

"Spectres ... are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary."

I have never heard of elite military operative who does not know how to fire a gun.

Modifié par celuloid, 15 mai 2011 - 05:24 .