301 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I think that Mordin is the very model of a "non-military" potential SpecTRe candidate. Kasumi too. (And before we get into the "Mordin isn't qualified to be a SpecTR"e argument, remember that he was on Special Tasks, which the SpecTRes are modeled after. Sure he might not be exactly the same thing, but it's close enough to make the argument worthwhile.)

Both can do combat, to some extent, but combat isn't where the bulk of their skills lie. I could see either of them being solo Spectres, and in those situations rarely using their combat abilities. Still, when the time comes when your only choice is to whip out a pistol and line up a few headshots, you gotta be able to do that.

I don't think they have to be combat experts, but they should be combat proficient.

Edit: also, I know a few guys who were in the military as intelligence analysts in recent middle eastern conflicts. They still had their basic training, but were far less adept in using guns than their frontline combat brethren. One of them candidly described being completely terrified and feeling ineffective when he was sent out on a mission that abruptly encountered armed resistance, because he wasn't used to dealing with it every day.

I can see someone like that still becoming a Spectre, if they needed a Spectre who was an expert in intelligence gathering and synthesis. They'd probably get a bit more combat stress training first, but they'd never be as gun-focused as a Spectre that was recruited from a frontline soldier group.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 05:36 .

[LorDC]

celuloid wrote...

Okay, from now on, every time someone makes a case against combat training, I am just going to post this quote from ingame Codex, the ultimate referential material there exists.

"Spectres ... are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary."

I have never heard of elite military operative who does not know how to fire a gun.

You, sir, are awesome.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

LorDC wrote...

celuloid wrote...

Okay, from now on, every time someone makes a case against combat training, I am just going to post this quote from ingame Codex, the ultimate referential material there exists.

"Spectres ... are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary."

I have never heard of elite military operative who does not know how to fire a gun.

You, sir, are awesome.

I have. They were called Samurai, and their culture did not make extensive use of gunpowder yet.

Bam.

(Edit: while this is a joke, bear in mind that you have to take the Salarians into consideration here. We haven't met a Salarian Spectre yet, and we know that Salarians value other things over combat prowess. I think that a Spectre from the Salarian military might look substantially different than a Human or Turian one.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 05:51 .

[Someone With Mass]

I think it's good if a Spectre can negotiate his way out of sticky situations, even if he's an expert with firearms.

[LorDC]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

LorDC wrote...

celuloid wrote...

Okay, from now on, every time someone makes a case against combat training, I am just going to post this quote from ingame Codex, the ultimate referential material there exists.

"Spectres ... are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary."

I have never heard of elite military operative who does not know how to fire a gun.

You, sir, are awesome.

I have. They were called Samurai, and their culture did not make extensive use of gunpowder yet.

Bam.

(Edit: while this is a joke, bear in mind that you have to take the Salarians into consideration here. We haven't met a Salarian Spectre yet, and we know that Salarians value other things over combat prowess. I think that a Spectre from the Salarian military might look substantially different than a Human or Turian one.)

Samurais were hardly elite and definetely not operatives.

[celuloid]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I have. They were called Samurai, and their culture did not make extensive use of gunpowder yet.

Bam.

(Edit: while this is a joke, bear in mind that you have to take the Salarians into consideration here. We haven't met a Salarian Spectre yet, and we know that Salarians value other things over combat prowess. I think that a Spectre from the Salarian military might look substantially different than a Human or Turian one.)

And I have seen that movie "300". It is bombastic. I bet Leonidas would make a great Spectre only if he was given biotic shield like Shadow Broker.

Regarding salarian Spectres, I suppose I have read about one. Excerpt from Cerberus news:
"The death of a salarian enforcement agent on planet Garvug is causing a stir among Council watchers and Sonax stockholders alike. Sources close to Sonax commander Lira Speight allege that Spectre Lonar Maerun made an attempt on Speight’s life and was wounded by her security. Maerun’s assistant died, shot after a weapon malfunction left him vulnerable."
It is not evidence that the Spectre himself was salarian, but his associate was salarian enforcement agent. The name sounds kind of salarian too. It would mean even salarian Spectres know how to fire a gun.

Modifié par celuloid, 15 mai 2011 - 06:23 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

LorDC wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

LorDC wrote...

celuloid wrote...

Okay, from now on, every time someone makes a case against combat training, I am just going to post this quote from ingame Codex, the ultimate referential material there exists.

"Spectres ... are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary."

I have never heard of elite military operative who does not know how to fire a gun.

You, sir, are awesome.

I have. They were called Samurai, and their culture did not make extensive use of gunpowder yet.

Bam.

(Edit: while this is a joke, bear in mind that you have to take the Salarians into consideration here. We haven't met a Salarian Spectre yet, and we know that Salarians value other things over combat prowess. I think that a Spectre from the Salarian military might look substantially different than a Human or Turian one.)

Samurais were hardly elite and definetely not operatives.

Actually, Samurai were by definition elite... they were part of a different social caste than normal villagers!

Also, will you accept... ninjas? No guns on the Ninjas. Note: if you are ever in Japan, make an effort to go to the Iga ninja museum. It is actually incredibly difficult to find (we had to take three trains and a bus) but it is awesome. One of the things that it emphasizes is that many Ninja were more focused on stealth and infiltration than actual combat. Also, ninja stars were expensive... most ninjas would only have one or two! 

(note: jokes!)

[jeweledleah]

Mordin can shoot a gun. in fact he can shoot it well enough, in conjunction with his tech abilities... to protect an entire clinic during turmoil in a bad neighborhood.

you don't have to be able to punch like mike Tyson in order to be a good weapons expert. aside from heaving things like Claymore shotgun or Widow Rifle - the whole beauty of the ranged weapons is that you can use them regardless of your size. what was it that Vasir was using? smg?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

celuloid wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I have. They were called Samurai, and their culture did not make extensive use of gunpowder yet.

Bam.

(Edit: while this is a joke, bear in mind that you have to take the Salarians into consideration here. We haven't met a Salarian Spectre yet, and we know that Salarians value other things over combat prowess. I think that a Spectre from the Salarian military might look substantially different than a Human or Turian one.)

And I have seen that movie "300". It is bombastic. I bet Leonidas would make a great Spectre only if he was given biotic shield like Shadow Broker.

Regarding salarian Spectres, I suppose I have read about one. Excerpt from Cerberus news:
"The death of a salarian enforcement agent on planet Garvug is causing a stir among Council watchers and Sonax stockholders alike. Sources close to Sonax commander Lira Speight allege that Spectre Lonar Maerun made an attempt on Speight’s life and was wounded by her security. Maerun’s assistant died, shot after a weapon malfunction left him vulnerable."
It is not evidence that the Spectre himself was salarian, but his associate was salarian enforcement agent. The name sounds kind of salarian too. It would mean even salarian Spectres know how to fire a gun.

I think that the majority of Salarian Special Tasks members (or Salarian Spectres) can use guns, tech attacks, and/or biotics. But there may be a minority who have only basic combat training... which does not equal being a combat expert. Having to be a combat expert is the premise of the thread (though there may have been some topic drift throughout the thread's progression.)

All Spectres probably have to know how to use a gun, but all Spectres probably also need to know how to use an omni-tool. Even a Soldier, Vanguard, or Adept Shepard has and uses an omni-tool. That doesn't mean they have to be an expert at it.

When I was younger, I had about 6 years of martial arts training, but I don't know how to fire a gun well (basic gun saftey and muzzle discipline are as far as I got in learning to use guns.) If you gave me a year where I took weekly visits to the shooting range (and mabye to the painball field), I might become "proficient" in using guns. I would not be a combat expert, though.

Basically, I'm saying you can be a Spectre if 97% of your skills lie in negotiation, tech, or stealth, and only 3% of your skills are combat-related. You need to posess some basic self-defense proficiencies (in the same way you need to be able to use an omni-tool, or speak coherently), but I don't think they need to comprise a large portion of your expertise.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[LorDC]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Actually, Samurai were by definition elite... they were part of a different social caste than normal villagers!

Also, will you accept... ninjas? No guns on the Ninjas. Note: if you are ever in Japan, make an effort to go to the Iga ninja museum. It is actually incredibly difficult to find (we had to take three trains and a bus) but it is awesome. One of the things that it emphasizes is that many Ninja were more focused on stealth and infiltration than actual combat. Also, ninja stars were expensive... most ninjas would only have one or two! 

(note: jokes!)

Samurais were socially elite but not military elite.
And ninjas had their golden age in 15-17 centuries. Firearms were known and used at that time in Japan. So most probably ninjas knew how to fire a gun.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

SPECTRES are a military force so I say yes. Also, combat expertise in case of a need should be a requirement to get in it. The councilors handle the diplomacy, SPECTREs are not really meant for it. If the council ever need the SPECTREs for a mission is because is beyond their role and most probably means trouble and violent confrontation.

So I say yes, not because they need to deal every situation with gunfire, but because it's a means to complete a mission and a SPECTRE needs to be ready for most possible and improbable situations.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

LorDC wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Actually, Samurai were by definition elite... they were part of a different social caste than normal villagers!

Also, will you accept... ninjas? No guns on the Ninjas. Note: if you are ever in Japan, make an effort to go to the Iga ninja museum. It is actually incredibly difficult to find (we had to take three trains and a bus) but it is awesome. One of the things that it emphasizes is that many Ninja were more focused on stealth and infiltration than actual combat. Also, ninja stars were expensive... most ninjas would only have one or two! 

(note: jokes!)

Samurais were socially elite but not military elite.
And ninjas had their golden age in 15-17 centuries. Firearms were known and used at that time in Japan. So most probably ninjas knew how to fire a gun.

Not according to my extensive study of Japanese history at Kokusai Kuristokyu Daigaku. Also, not according to the Iga Ninja museum! Samurai were much more likely to have and use firearms than ninja, and even that was pretty darn unlikely.

This is a silly tangent though, because they were obviously combat trained, even if they didn't use guns. See my post above for my actual argument.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 06:56 .

[LorDC]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Not according to my extensive study of Japanese history at Kokusai Kuristokyu Daigaku. Also, not according to the Iga Ninja museum! Samurai were much more likely to have and use firearms than ninja, and even that was pretty darn unlikely.

This is a silly tangent though, because they were obviously combat trained, even if they didn't use guns. See my post above for my actual argument.

But the initial argument was about "know how to fire a gun" not having and using it. So this point is invalid.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
This is a silly tangent though, because they were obviously combat trained, even if they didn't use guns. See my post above for my actual argument.

But it is nice to dive into some demagogy once in a while=)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

LorDC wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Not according to my extensive study of Japanese history at Kokusai Kuristokyu Daigaku. Also, not according to the Iga Ninja museum! Samurai were much more likely to have and use firearms than ninja, and even that was pretty darn unlikely.

This is a silly tangent though, because they were obviously combat trained, even if they didn't use guns. See my post above for my actual argument.

But the initial argument was about "know how to fire a gun" not having and using it. So this point is invalid.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
This is a silly tangent though, because they were obviously combat trained, even if they didn't use guns. See my post above for my actual argument.

But it is nice to dive into some demagogy once in a while=)

Honestly I think that, due to the scarcity of guns in that era of Japan, most ninjas would never have even encountered a gun. And firing one was often very expensive, so having someone know how to fire a gun who wouldn't own or use one would have been a stupid waste of resources... and effective and efficient use of minimal resources is something that ninja are known for!

[WizenSlinky0]

Not being a combat expert does not mean you aren't combat proficient. I think it'd be fairly obvious that any profession they are likely to be drawn from would contain some form of basic combat training. This does not make them experts. Nor does it disqualify them from Spectre's.

In-Direct combat can be just as useful (if not more so) than going in guns blazing. It also requires an entirely different skill set than combat training. You can disable and eliminate marks, platoons, armies without them ever seeing you or knowing who you are. Sabotage, Reconnaissance (Not military in nature as the point is to avoid engaging the enemy), diplomacy, infiltration. None of these require any sort of combat expertise.

Facing down an army? Sabotage their trade-routes and they fall apart. Or eliminate their leader with a well timed explosive and "arrange" for a more peaceful one to take their place. Facing down a platoon? Pump a non-lethal neurotoxin in to disable them and retrieve the data you were asked to find.

The point of a proper infiltrator is to always be prepared and ALWAYS have a back-up plan. This does not require they be able to face down an entire platoon in a gun battle on their own. Use of merc's or allies and in-direct combat can get the exact same results.

[celuloid]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I think that the majority of Salarian Special Tasks members (or Salarian Spectres) can use guns, tech attacks, and/or biotics. But there may be a minority who have only basic combat training... which does not equal being a combat expert. Having to be a combat expert is the premise of the thread (though there may have been some topic drift throughout the thread's progression.)

All Spectres probably have to know how to use a gun, but all Spectres probably also need to know how to use an omni-tool. Even a Soldier, Vanguard, or Adept Shepard has and uses an omni-tool. That doesn't mean they have to be an expert at it.

When I was younger, I had about 6 years of martial arts training, but I don't know how to fire a gun well (basic gun saftey and muzzle discipline are as far as I got in learning to use guns.) If you gave me a year where I took weekly visits to the shooting range (and mabye to the painball field), I might become "proficient" in using guns. I would not be a combat expert, though.

Basically, I'm saying you can be a Spectre if 97% of your skills lie in negotiation, tech, or stealth, and only 3% of your skills are combat-related. You need to posess some basic self-defense proficiencies (in the same way you need to be able to use an omni-tool, or speak coherently), but I don't think they need to comprise a large portion of your expertise.

I do not know what you mean by "expert", because real life is not RPG game with stats and leveling.

We did not "drift" - read the OP. Dean argues they should not even be combat capable and should be able to resolve every situation with omnipotent hacking/trap skills, which is fanfiction when we look at what Spectres do.

Modifié par celuloid, 15 mai 2011 - 07:37 .

[General User]

I’ve always thought of “knowing how to fire a gun” as being something akin to “knowing how to drive a car”, or “knowing how to cook a meal”, ie something you need to know in order to be a well-rounded adult in a modern society.
 
It's something everyone should be expected to know. Something very different from being a combat expert, or a crack commando.

Modifié par General User, 15 mai 2011 - 07:32 .

[celuloid]

General User wrote...

I’ve always thought of “knowing how to fire a gun” as being something akin to “knowing how to drive a car”, or “knowing how to cook a meal” something you need to know in order to be a well-rounded adult in a modern society.

It's something everyone should be expected to know. Something very different from being a combat expert, or a crack commando.

Pardon me, I live in large city in Europe. Firing guns does not comprise significant part of my country's culture and public transport will get you anywhere. But I feel like well-rounded member of society. Is there something wrong?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

celuloid wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I think that the majority of Salarian Special Tasks members (or Salarian Spectres) can use guns, tech attacks, and/or biotics. But there may be a minority who have only basic combat training... which does not equal being a combat expert. Having to be a combat expert is the premise of the thread (though there may have been some topic drift throughout the thread's progression.)

All Spectres probably have to know how to use a gun, but all Spectres probably also need to know how to use an omni-tool. Even a Soldier, Vanguard, or Adept Shepard has and uses an omni-tool. That doesn't mean they have to be an expert at it.

When I was younger, I had about 6 years of martial arts training, but I don't know how to fire a gun well (basic gun saftey and muzzle discipline are as far as I got in learning to use guns.) If you gave me a year where I took weekly visits to the shooting range (and mabye to the painball field), I might become "proficient" in using guns. I would not be a combat expert, though.

Basically, I'm saying you can be a Spectre if 97% of your skills lie in negotiation, tech, or stealth, and only 3% of your skills are combat-related. You need to posess some basic self-defense proficiencies (in the same way you need to be able to use an omni-tool, or speak coherently), but I don't think they need to comprise a large portion of your expertise.

I do not know what you mean by "expert", because real life is not RPG game with stats and leveling.

We did not "drift" - read the OP. Dean argues they should not be even combat capable and be able to resolve every situation with omnipotent hacking/trap skills, which is fanfiction if we look at what Spectres do.

Sorry... I'll admit I just read the title of the topic, and skimmed the first few pages. Instead of accusing you of drift... perhaps re-interpret my post as an attempt to steer the thread toward a more literal discussion of the topic in the title?

Do I think all spectres need at least basic combat proficiency? Probably. I think all Spectres need basic combat, tech, and conversational proficiency - even Renegade Shepard is good at speaking, even if he's rude or intimidating. Basically, any Spectre needs to use a combat abilities at least as well as a non-tech Shepard can use an omni-tool. Any Spectre needs to have at least some ability to resolve certain situations through talking (intimidation counts). 

Basically I agree that there is some baseline for a bunch of Spectre skills, which include combat, tech, and "negotiation," but that these baselines are not incredibly high, and the baelines for combat aren't any higher than the baselines for the other two things. Someone can be 90% combat oriented, 90% tech oriented, or 90% talking/charisma/diplomacy-oriented. Is there a good general purpose word for all talking-related skills? 

I also talked with Dean and he said that I was being more eloquent than him about this issue, so I can assume that the OP agrees with me, or at least agreed with my previous posts. Don't blame him for his inelegance... he is, as stated in his forum name, young!

All that said, I can imagine a Volus Spectre whose only weapons are a Combat drone and gas grenades (and possibly a specially-reinforced suit with enhanced safety anti-decompression measures). Said Volus would be immune to all such gas attacks, naturally. It's still a form of combat, but I'd see it as likely more of an escapte/lifesaving system than an actual "I will send this guy in with the idea that if he can't talk to those people, he will shoot them" scenario.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 07:42 .

[General User]

celuloid wrote...

General User wrote...

I’ve always thought of “knowing how to fire a gun” as being something akin to “knowing how to drive a car”, or “knowing how to cook a meal” something you need to know in order to be a well-rounded adult in a modern society.

It's something everyone should be expected to know. Something very different from being a combat expert, or a crack commando.

Pardon me, I live in large city in Europe. Firing guns does not comprise significant part of my country's culture and public transport will get you anywhere. But I feel like well-rounded member of society. Is there something wrong?

Oh no, there's nothing wrong, exactly, there's just so much more that could be right!

It's a bit like being able to play a musical instrument, it's something that enriches a persons life and makes them the better for it. 

But there's nothing wrong in the slightest with not being able to do so.  And if you live in a society that frowns on music (like my old apartment building), there's nothing inherrently bad about that society.

SPECTREs should be expected to be familiar with firearms in nearly the same way they should be expected to know how to fly an air car, or operate an omni-tool, or read a star chart, or any of 1001 other simple things.

Modifié par General User, 15 mai 2011 - 07:57 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

General User wrote...
SPECTREs should be expected to be familiar with firearms in nearly the same way they should be expected to know how to fly an air car, or operate an omni-tool, or read a star chart, or any of 1001 other simple things.

I like this.

[Dave666]

General User wrote...

celuloid wrote...

General User wrote...

I’ve always thought of “knowing how to fire a gun” as being something akin to “knowing how to drive a car”, or “knowing how to cook a meal” something you need to know in order to be a well-rounded adult in a modern society.

It's something everyone should be expected to know. Something very different from being a combat expert, or a crack commando.

Pardon me, I live in large city in Europe. Firing guns does not comprise significant part of my country's culture and public transport will get you anywhere. But I feel like well-rounded member of society. Is there something wrong?

Oh no, there's nothing wrong, exactly, there's just so much more that could be right!

It's a bit like being able to play a musical instrument, it's something that enriches a persons life and makes them the better for it. 

But there's nothing wrong in the slightest with not being able to do so.  And if you live in a society that frowns on music (like my old apartment building), there's nothing inherrently bad about that society.

SPECTREs should be expected to be familiar with firearms in nearly the same way they should be expected to know how to fly an air car, or operate an omni-tool, or read a star chart, or any of 1001 other simple things.

So much more that could be right?  Are you serious?  I can only assume that you live in America with that whole Right to Arm Bears thing.  I live in the UK and guns are banned here (except for a few exceptions like farmers who need a licence) and personally I rather like the fact that I can walk down a street and not have a 50/50 chance of getting shot.  I've never even seen a real gun and I don't particularly want to thanks.


Your last part about Spectres being proficient in many fields however I agree with completely.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I think "knowing how to use firearms" is different from "right to arm bears," in some situations. I'm all for gun control, but knowing how to properly deal with a gun should you encounter one without accidentally discharging it or handling it unsafely is important. I also think that knowing how to use a firearm is a good idea in that it can remove some of their mystery and ability to cause fear. That doesn't mean you have to own one, or that your country has to make having one around legal.

Also, this is somewhat related to the classic Heinlein quote which, like much of what Heinlein wrote, I sort of agree with: 

Heinlein wrote...

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 08:10 .

[Dave666]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I think "knowing how to use firearms" is different from "right to arm bears," in some situations. I'm all for gun control, but knowing how to properly deal with a gun should you encounter one without accidentally discharging it or handling it unsafely is important. I also think that knowing how to use a firearm is a good idea in that it can remove some of their mystery and ability to cause fear. That doesn't mean you have to own one, or that your country has to make having one around legal.

Also, this is somewhat related to the classic Heinlein quote which, like much of what Heinlein wrote, I sort of agree with: 

Heinlein wrote...

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

I figured you'd get my joke about the Bears (personally I still reckon that the guy who wrote that constitution thingumy was dyslexic and that's what he actually meant to write). 

I'm not so sure I agree with your idea of teaching everyone how to safely use a gun.  I have never even seen one in real life and I know exactly how to handle one safely.  Leave it the hell alone!  Teaching people how to use one can seriously backfire anyway.  There's always a few nutjobs in any society who will find a way to get a hold of one and the last thing we need is them knowing how to use it.  At least if they have to teach themselves there's a chance that they'll get caught while practicing and have the gun taken from them.

I quite liked that quote CGG and in an ideal world we'd all be like that.  The problem is that we don't live long enough to learn all of that.  I remember reading a theory years and years ago about aging being a disease that Humanity caught early on in its evolution and I found it quite thought provoking.  How much less insane as a species would we be if we didn't die not long after we realized our own mortality?  Imagine how much calmer we'd be if the average lifespan was say six or seven hundred years.  Would we be so quick to wreck the planet if we knew it would litterally bite us personally in the backside later for example?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave666 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I think "knowing how to use firearms" is different from "right to arm bears," in some situations. I'm all for gun control, but knowing how to properly deal with a gun should you encounter one without accidentally discharging it or handling it unsafely is important. I also think that knowing how to use a firearm is a good idea in that it can remove some of their mystery and ability to cause fear. That doesn't mean you have to own one, or that your country has to make having one around legal.

Also, this is somewhat related to the classic Heinlein quote which, like much of what Heinlein wrote, I sort of agree with: 

Heinlein wrote...

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

I figured you'd get my joke about the Bears (personally I still reckon that the guy who wrote that constitution thingumy was dyslexic and that's what he actually meant to write). 

I'm not so sure I agree with your idea of teaching everyone how to safely use a gun.  I have never even seen one in real life and I know exactly how to handle one safely.  Leave it the hell alone!  Teaching people how to use one can seriously backfire anyway.  There's always a few nutjobs in any society who will find a way to get a hold of one and the last thing we need is them knowing how to use it.  At least if they have to teach themselves there's a chance that they'll get caught while practicing and have the gun taken from them.

I quite liked that quote CGG and in an ideal world we'd all be like that.  The problem is that we don't live long enough to learn all of that.  I remember reading a theory years and years ago about aging being a disease that Humanity caught early on in its evolution and I found it quite thought provoking.  How much less insane as a species would we be if we didn't die not long after we realized our own mortality?  Imagine how much calmer we'd be if the average lifespan was say six or seven hundred years.  Would we be so quick to wreck the planet if we knew it would litterally bite us personally in the backside later for example?

The "knowing how to use or deal with guns" question is a tricky one. To give a real life analogue... my brother went to a school in a small city, and they'd take kids out to play in city parks for recess sometimes. At one point when he was 9 or 10, he found a bag in the bushes with what appeared to be drugs in it. He was smart, and told one of the teachers, who picked it up and called the police. Imagine that it had been a gun, rather than a bag of drugs (both illegal items that might be left in "drop" locations in a public place.) Knowing how to safely remove the gun from a place where kids could find it would be important.

Also, when I was a kid a few of my friends had cap guns. I knew the approximate look and feel of a cap gun, and I had played with them before. (These were the old-fashioned, steel and cast iron guns, usually modeled to look like pistols from the late 1800s/early 1900s). This was a few years before they changed the rules in the US, so that all toy guns had to be fitted with bright orange plastic caps on the end. At one point I was at a new friend's house, and I picked up what appeared to be a cap gun off of his desk. I didn't know anything about guns or muzzle discipline at that point, so I was holding it in a stupid manner, and if it had been a real gun it might have gone off. My friend had a lot more experience with guns that I did, and he stopped me, and opened up the gun to show me something. It turns out it wasn't a cap gun at all, though it looked and felt like one. It was an atique gun that had been modified in such a way to make in unable to fire... I could have been unsafely handling a real gun, instead of a prop, and not realized it! That scared me, and made me learn some basics so I wouldn't be dumb in the future.

To bring things back on topic... living in the Mass Effect world and traveling from planet to planet, I think you'd encounter firearms pretty frequently. If you can live a life where you can be reasonbly sure never to encounter them, you can safely avoid not learning how to handle them. If you're going to be traveling to areas where they are more common, I think a little bit of basic safety knowledge an be useful.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 08:36 .