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[celuloid]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
All that said, I can imagine a Volus Spectre whose only weapons are a Combat drone and gas grenades (and possibly a specially-reinforced suit with enhanced safety anti-decompression measures). Said Volus would be immune to all such gas attacks, naturally. It's still a form of combat, but I'd see it as likely more of an escapte/lifesaving system than an actual "I will send this guy in with the idea that if he can't talk to those people, he will shoot them" scenario.

I bet even I would not be intimidated by said Volus (If you do not comply, Sir, I will be forced to make a bad smell).
But lets look at how a possible Spectre job advertisement might look like.

We seek capable conscience-free individuals with proven record of surviving against insurmountable odds.
Race: Able to hold and fire a broad range of weapons, from small arms to anti-vehicle.
Fitness: 40 miles run in 4 hours.
Age: At the peek of physical and mental power. Salarians: 14-18. Humans, turians: 25-35. Asari: 200-400.
Experience: 3 years of special forces assignments in respective species' military branch. Already killed combatants and non-combatants alike when compatible with mission parameters.
Typical workday: Reconnaisance, sabotage, assassination, guerilla warfare, galaxy salvation (or destruction, depends on moral alignment).
Send your resume and cover letter to council@citadel.extranet
Unfortunately given high amounts of applicants with aforementioned qualities, we are not able to send out negative answers to everyone. In case you are selected as candidate for Spectres, you will be supervised by Spectre during series of joint missions. Usual percentage of admitted candidates: 15%.

However, now that they admitted Ashley, I am afraid standards are pretty low these days.

Modifié par celuloid, 15 mai 2011 - 08:49 .

[Dave666]

CGG, I'm not anti gun on principle, I just think that sometimes its better not to have them in the hands of the common citizen (too many nutcases). However to use a Mass Effect example, if I was going to a colony (which are prone to attacks form Slaver, Batarians, Pirates and other assorted nasties) then yes, I would ask for some gun training before going. Its the old 'condom principle' better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I definately think that Spectres should be at the very least proficient in using standard weaponry. I don't expect every Spectre to be the best Sniper in the Galaxy etc, but they do need to at least be able to make a shot if the circumstances calls for it. Think, Garrus' recruitment mission with that mech and the renegade interupt.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

celuloid wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
All that said, I can imagine a Volus Spectre whose only weapons are a Combat drone and gas grenades (and possibly a specially-reinforced suit with enhanced safety anti-decompression measures). Said Volus would be immune to all such gas attacks, naturally. It's still a form of combat, but I'd see it as likely more of an escapte/lifesaving system than an actual "I will send this guy in with the idea that if he can't talk to those people, he will shoot them" scenario.

I bet even I would not be intimidated by said Volus (If you do not comply, Sir, I will be forced to make a bad smell).
But lets look at how a possible Spectre job advertisement might look like.

We seek capable conscious-free individuals with proven record of surviving against insurmountable odds.
Race: Able to hold and fire a broad range of weapons, from small arms to anti-vehicle.
Fitness: 40 miles run in 4 hours.
Age: At the peek of physical and mental power. Salarians: 14-18. Humans, turians: 25-35. Asari: 200-400.
Experience: 3 years of special forces assignments in respective species' military branch. Already killed combatants and non-combatants alike when compatible with mission parameters.
Typical workday: Reconnaisance, assassination, sabotage, guerilla attacks, galaxy salvation (or destruction, depends on moral alignment).
Send your resumes to council@citadel.extranet
Unfortunately, given high amounts of applicants with aforementioned qualities, we are not able to send out negative answers to everyone. In case you are selected as candidate for Spectres, you will be supervised by Spectre during series of joint missions. Usual percentage of admitted candidates: 15%.

However, now that they admitted Ashley, I am afraid standards are pretty low these days.

In my mind, that Volus Spectre wouldn't be sent in on missions where intimidation was going to be necessary.

Let's say the Council had to investigate a manufacturer who was accused of coordinating a price-fixing scheme with other manufacturers of a certain product: levo-protein emergency rations - the companies who make them have agreed on a price-fixing scheme, keeping the prices of levo-protein emergency rations unreasonably high. You'd send the Volus spectre in to go to meetings, posing as a Volus businessman. Nobody would suspect him of being a Spectre. The drone and gas grenades are only for emergencies... if he is uncovered, he releases knockout gas and flees the scene, hacking all the doors to put the place in lockdown until he can send a report to the local authorities.

This kind of investigation is something that the FBI and CIA might look into... see the movie "The Informant!" for more details. In this movie, the FBI has to work with someone who isn't a trained agent while investigating a corporate price fixing crime. Wouldn't it be good to have a highly trained Volus Spectre on the case, rather than semi-incompetent crazy person Matt Damon? If you have a Spectre whose skills involve slotting themselves seamlessly into corporate culture, having them look fit and sharp-eyed would be a noted disadvantage.

In my mind, probably about half of Spectres don't go around with a big Spectre decal on their shoulder, sticking guns into people's faces. There are probably quite a few Spectres who end their career with nobody knowing they were ever a Spectre, or whose Spectre status only becomes public knowledge once it is required to complete a certain assignment. Based on the fact that Special Tasks was based on the League of One, and the League of One's identities were classified for decades... I think the council knows who all of the Spectres are, but if all your secret agents' identities are common knowledge, that's kind of stupid, no?

[Dean_the_Young]

celuloid wrote...

I bet even I would not be intimidated by said Volus (If you do not comply, Sir, I will be forced to make a bad smell).

Why aim so high?

If you do not comply, your mother will never return from her shore leave from the Dreadnaught Kilimanjaro, nor will I tell you what sort of antidote she needs within the next two hours from the odorless gas she inhaled.

Plus, I just hacked and stole all your money.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mai 2011 - 09:01 .

[AlexMBrennan]

The problem with that volus Spectre is as follows:

the asari councillor said...
Spectres are [...] the embodiment [...] of self-reliance

The volus Spectre is clearly not self reliant (he needs the help of the local authorities). Yes, you need highly qualified operatives, tech experts, snipers and demomen - but they are specialists and not suitable for the (generalist) Spectre job.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 15 mai 2011 - 09:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The problem with that volus Spectre is as follows:

the asari councillor said...
Spectres are [...] the embodiment [...] of self-reliance

The volus Spectre is clearly not self reliant (he needs the help of the local authorities). Yes, you need highly qualified operatives, tech experts, snipers and demomen - but they are specialists and not suitable for the (generalist) Spectre job.

Shepard's not a generalist either. Shepard has to rely on the help of other organizations constantly.

[AlexMBrennan]

Shepard is a generalist (he's a reasonably competent marksman, negotiator, leader, tactician), at least compared to the volus. But I agree that he's not completely self-reliant either.

[Dean_the_Young]

He's a combat-generalist, so he relies on others for technical/biotic/other skills. A volus whos a tech/other generalist (largely self-sufficient on those grounds) but relies more on others for serious fighting ability isn't fundamentally different.

[Ship.wreck_]

jeweledleah wrote...

Mordin can shoot a gun. in fact he can shoot it well enough, in conjunction with his tech abilities... to protect an entire clinic during turmoil in a bad neighborhood.

you don't have to be able to punch like mike Tyson in order to be a good weapons expert. aside from heaving things like Claymore shotgun or Widow Rifle - the whole beauty of the ranged weapons is that you can use them regardless of your size. what was it that Vasir was using? smg?

Firearms not withstanding, one does need to know how to fight hand to hand very well to make a good combatant. Just because weapons exist that can kill at range, and you have one, doesn't mean no one's ever going to get close to you.

If you can shoot a gun but can't throw a punch, you're not a very good combatant.

[WizenSlinky0]

jeweledleah wrote...

Mordin can shoot a gun. in fact he can shoot it well enough, in conjunction with his tech abilities... to protect an entire clinic during turmoil in a bad neighborhood.

you don't have to be able to punch like mike Tyson in order to be a good weapons expert. aside from heaving things like Claymore shotgun or Widow Rifle - the whole beauty of the ranged weapons is that you can use them regardless of your size. what was it that Vasir was using? smg?

Uh do we forget that he employed the use of military grade mech's to defend the clinic?

[Ship.wreck_]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

He's a combat-generalist, so he relies on others for technical/biotic/other skills. A volus whos a tech/other generalist (largely self-sufficient on those grounds) but relies more on others for serious fighting ability isn't fundamentally different.

My shepard is an expert in the use of all firearms, and has no biotics. He's highly specialized, and requires the support of his team alot more than the help of outside organizations.

"You can't bludgen your way through beurocracy."
Shepard, "I can bludgen pretty hard."

If your organization resists him, he will get around under over or through your organization and accomplish his goal anyway... but he'll need the help of his squad.

No man is an island.

[Dean_the_Young]

By organization I was referring to the Alliance and Cerberus in particular, the later one especialy due to EDI.

[Ship.wreck_]

celuloid wrote...

General User wrote...

I’ve always thought of “knowing how to fire a gun” as being something akin to “knowing how to drive a car”, or “knowing how to cook a meal” something you need to know in order to be a well-rounded adult in a modern society.

It's something everyone should be expected to know. Something very different from being a combat expert, or a crack commando.

Pardon me, I live in large city in Europe. Firing guns does not comprise significant part of my country's culture and public transport will get you anywhere. But I feel like well-rounded member of society. Is there something wrong?

Yeah, until somebody invades and your realize you're not gonna make much of an underground resistance without knowing how to operate a firearm, haven't you seen Red Dawn?

This is AMERICA damnit, we pop caps.

[Dave666]

Ship.wreck wrote...

celuloid wrote...

General User wrote...

I’ve always thought of “knowing how to fire a gun” as being something akin to “knowing how to drive a car”, or “knowing how to cook a meal” something you need to know in order to be a well-rounded adult in a modern society.

It's something everyone should be expected to know. Something very different from being a combat expert, or a crack commando.

Pardon me, I live in large city in Europe. Firing guns does not comprise significant part of my country's culture and public transport will get you anywhere. But I feel like well-rounded member of society. Is there something wrong?

Yeah, until somebody invades and your realize you're not gonna make much of an underground resistance without knowing how to operate a firearm, haven't you seen Red Dawn?

This is AMERICA damnit, we pop caps.

And have the highest gun related deaths and crime of anywhere in the world.  Congratulations.

Trust me, its perfectly possible to fight an underground resistance without guns.  Ever heard of Molotov cocktails for example?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Guys, let's NOT turn this into a non-Mass Effect, real world politics discussion.

Keep gun-use discussions science fictional, please. Otherwise - sad panda.  And yes, I do realized I was dangerously on that threshold myself earlier... still it was generalized theory, not specific politics. 

Please let's be careful.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 09:51 .

[Ship.wreck_]

This topic seems to be going all kinds of weird places it shouldn't be. I read something about Ninjas and Samurai a few pages back haha!

In any case I think this one was pretty much wrapped up when that guy quoted the codex entry as saying that Spectres are elite military operatives.

You don't be an elite military operative without being a combat expert, to quote Tupac, "That's just the way it is." It's a nice thought and all, that there could be non-combatant Spectres, "Then pen is mightier than the sword" and all... but that's just not the point of Spectres.

Furthermore, "Things will never, be the same."

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ship.wreck wrote...

This topic seems to be going all kinds of weird places it shouldn't be. I read something about Ninjas and Samurai a few pages back haha!

In any case I think this one was pretty much wrapped up when that guy quoted the codex entry as saying that Spectres are elite military operatives.

You don't be an elite military operative without being a combat expert, to quote Tupac, "That's just the way it is." It's a nice thought and all, that there could be non-combatant Spectres, "Then pen is mightier than the sword" and all... but that's just not the point of Spectres.

Furthermore, "Things will never, be the same."

I disagree.

As I said before, I knew a fellow who was classified as an "elite military operative" at least in some respects. He was an intelligence analyst, and very rarely left the shelter of his compound, though he did things like piloting drones and monitoring wiretaps.

He went through basic training, but was hardly a combat expert.

In the future of Mass Effect they have even more technological non-combat ways to do things, so typical combat would be far less important than it is today. You're being very human-centric in assuming that all militaries of all the different races have the exact same emphasis on firearms combat as their primary training focus.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 mai 2011 - 10:01 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Dave666 wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

celuloid wrote...

General User wrote...

I’ve always thought of “knowing how to fire a gun” as being something akin to “knowing how to drive a car”, or “knowing how to cook a meal” something you need to know in order to be a well-rounded adult in a modern society.

It's something everyone should be expected to know. Something very different from being a combat expert, or a crack commando.

Pardon me, I live in large city in Europe. Firing guns does not comprise significant part of my country's culture and public transport will get you anywhere. But I feel like well-rounded member of society. Is there something wrong?

Yeah, until somebody invades and your realize you're not gonna make much of an underground resistance without knowing how to operate a firearm, haven't you seen Red Dawn?

This is AMERICA damnit, we pop caps.

And have the highest gun related deaths and crime of anywhere in the world.  Congratulations.

Trust me, its perfectly possible to fight an underground resistance without guns.  Ever heard of Molotov cocktails for example?

Population controll: check. And thank you.

No it's not. Sure, they're great for making the news, destroying property and pissing off riot control; not so much for killing enemy combatants. Especially considering that those enemy combatants do have guns and would shoot my face off while I try to light my molotov cocktail rag fuse on fire with a sketchy lighter.

In recent history there have been a lot of armed conflicts, I assure you, none have ever been won by way of molotov cocktail.

[WizenSlinky0]

Ship.wreck wrote...

You don't be an elite military operative without being a combat expert, to quote Tupac, "That's just the way it is." It's a nice thought and all, that there could be non-combatant Spectres, "Then pen is mightier than the sword" and all... but that's just not the point of Spectres.

Basically what culturalgeekgirl before me said. But although we only really hear about the "delta operative" types and how they go commando on raids and such, there are many branches to the military, and many of them only require basic training.

You can be an elite military operative regardless of advanced combat training.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 15 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[KenKenpachi]

Lol I have only one..." skills to succede" lol wtf is that? You sound like a ****ing school counsoler.

As to your "Use someone else" repeat line...no. Most spectures from what we've seen work alone, and do wetwork.

You want people who are ruthless, skilled, trained, and have no problems with killing and being alone. So if the crap blows up in one's face, well its that many less that know that you had your hand in the cookie jar, and thus that less to have...."accidents" to happen too.


Also to the above....some what true. However a high ranking intell anaylist never has his ass in the bush short of on TV and movies.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 15 mai 2011 - 10:03 .

[Ship.wreck_]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I disagree.

As I said before, I had a friend who was classified as an "elite military operative" at least in some respects. He was an intelligence analyst, and very rarely left the shelter of his compound, though he did things like piloting drones and monitoring wiretaps.

He went through basic training, but was hardly a combat expert.

In the future of Mass Effect they have even more technological non-combat ways to do things, so typical combat would be far less important than it is today. You're being very human-centric in assuming that all militaries of all the different races have the exact same emphasis on firearms combat as their primary training focus.

You cannot deny the wisdom of the Tupac.

Furthermore, I bet he was an expert in the operation of those drones: combat. And even if that weren't the case: Inelligence anylists are not operatives. If they were, they would be called intelligence operatives. I don't deny that he was elite military something.

Now they guy placing the wire taps, he would be an operative, and he would need to know how to handle himself if placing of said tap went poorly.

I don't assume everyone trains the same way. I just assume that everyone trains heavily, at some point, in some way, in the use of firearms. Even the Salarian infiltration team on Virmire(?) was heavily armed and armored, and they supposedly place much higher emphasis on intelligence. But the fact remains, you just don't send a team that small to recon an enemy force that large, equip them that well, and NOT give them advanced training in the use of firearms.

I know alot of people in this forum are the happy go lucky care bear type, but without the capacity to enforce one's will through the use of force there just is no substance to a military operation. Without violance a military operation is just a hollow "exercise" without a real world result.

[Dean_the_Young]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Lol I have only one..." skills to succede" lol wtf is that? You sound like a ****ing school counsoler.

There are a lot of ways to kill a man without shooting him or stabbing him in the face in a firefight. How are other ways invalid.

As to your "Use someone else" repeat line...no. Most spectures from what we've seen work alone, and do wetwork.

We've seen a grand total of four spectres, and none of them doing what would usually be considered extended wetwork. Shepard's a straight-up combat squad assault team in practice and demonstration.

You want people who are ruthless, skilled, trained, and have no problems with killing and being alone. So if the crap blows up in one's face, well its that many less that know that you had your hand in the cookie jar, and thus that less to have...."accidents" to happen too.

And why how do those ruthless, skilled people stay alive on their own? Not by shooting everything they come across: survival in wetworks is about every other skill before the firefight, and then only the firefight as necessary.

Also to the above....some what true. However a high ranking intell anaylist never has his ass in the bush short of on TV and movies.

And people of Shepard's rank wouldn't be leading fireteams.

In short, we're already in a video game.

[General User]

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that SPECTRES aren’t assigned missions as much as they’re assigned goals.

“Destroy Saren’s base on Virmire” would be a mission.
“Stop Saren” would be a goal.

When I picture what a non-combat SPECTRE might look like, I think of TIM.

[KenKenpachi]

Ah well All I can say is USSOCOM would dissagree when the **** hits the fan, as would Russia's GRU and Spetsnaz. And officers in special forces ranks do at times see combat. Its not normal, but in this day and age, we do have senior officers who like to sweat and bleed with the men under them. And not push a button a thousand miles away.

[Dean_the_Young]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Ah well All I can say is USSOCOM would dissagree when the **** hits the fan, as would Russia's GRU and Spetsnaz. And officers in special forces ranks do at times see combat. Its not normal, but in this day and age, we do have senior officers who like to sweat and bleed with the men under them. And not push a button a thousand miles away.

And elite CIA operatives would see things in different lights. As would elite FBI agents. As would elite NSA . As would elite Secret Service...

When your frame of reference is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.